Theresatramondo
Member
hi, please see ss, when she gets 3 u's and when it can be given, she acts much better and her nadir is in the mid 100s. look at last 2 nadirs. so I've adjusted the shots, see my profile below. :mrgreen:
Tiffy 07/14/13 amps 483, 3u - +4.5, 151 (alpha only)
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Deb & Wink
Very Active Member
Hope you read all my notes on our talk last night. Over in yesterdays' condo.
Tiffy 7/13 condo
Could you get a +9 or +10 today? I want to see how soon Tiffy is going back up. It will also give a better idea of the duration of the Prozinc.
Loving that blue by the way, bet she drops even lower by +6.
Tiffy 7/13 condo
Could you get a +9 or +10 today? I want to see how soon Tiffy is going back up. It will also give a better idea of the duration of the Prozinc.
Loving that blue by the way, bet she drops even lower by +6.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Let it play out and see what happens. If that's the low point, then it would be a little bit of an early nadir. If that happens regularly, then it could indicate a duration of less than 12 hours would be Tiffy's"norm". Like Deb mentioned, a +9 or +10 can reveal "short duration" if it happens routinely.
The 151 is a beautiful number. On the AT, 150 is the high end of the normal feline blood glucose range. So this dose, today, got Tiffy "there".
You may see a "bounce" later in the cycle. Not because the number is too low, just because it's so much lower than where she was at AMPS. That's okay though. It doesn't mean the dose was too high. It just means she's not used to normal numbers yet.
This illustrates one of my points from yesterday. You could see a 483 AMPS, followed by a 500 PMPS. Without that test in the middle, you might think the dose was too little. But the 151 indicates that isn't the case. That's the true value of mid-cycle tests with Prozinc and a sliding scale.
The 151 is a beautiful number. On the AT, 150 is the high end of the normal feline blood glucose range. So this dose, today, got Tiffy "there".
You may see a "bounce" later in the cycle. Not because the number is too low, just because it's so much lower than where she was at AMPS. That's okay though. It doesn't mean the dose was too high. It just means she's not used to normal numbers yet.
This illustrates one of my points from yesterday. You could see a 483 AMPS, followed by a 500 PMPS. Without that test in the middle, you might think the dose was too little. But the 151 indicates that isn't the case. That's the true value of mid-cycle tests with Prozinc and a sliding scale.
Theresatramondo
Member
Re: Tiffy 07/14/13 - pmps 477 (alpha) - 434 micro
Hi, I am feeling better about the micro, and don't think I need to irritate her any further. I will start using micro next week. I had to hit those ears a few times tonight for the two monitors and her ears are not being friendly with the blood.. And deb is right, is sucks it up, if you hit it right with the micro, so the difference is ranging 40 to 70 and I am comfortable. I do need a scale for the micro those, if some can help with that.
Now, tiffy is consistent, at 3 units, which we didn't change the sliding scale at the unit, she has a great nadir. And Deb, I was thinking the same thing when I bg'd her, when is she rising back up to see where and how she's reacting to the insulin. Not sure about a plus 9 tonight, but tomorrow for sure. If I can get a nadir tonight I will be lucky. I irritate her with the two monitors. I wish she understood English better and Why I was doing this.
Funny, thing though, I really thought due to the consistent 3 units, her amps and pmps would have shot down low and thus that is why I wanted to reestablish new units at a higher dose for the lower am and pm, but consistently she stays in the fours with the 3 units. I am shocked :shock:
any suggestions? I read bob, and he seems to say, this is good, don't lower it any further. I am with him due to the 150 nadir, but the high pmps and amps is killing me, and she is cranky too at those levels. let's see what 7 and 9 brings in this week. ;-)
Hi, I am feeling better about the micro, and don't think I need to irritate her any further. I will start using micro next week. I had to hit those ears a few times tonight for the two monitors and her ears are not being friendly with the blood.. And deb is right, is sucks it up, if you hit it right with the micro, so the difference is ranging 40 to 70 and I am comfortable. I do need a scale for the micro those, if some can help with that.
Now, tiffy is consistent, at 3 units, which we didn't change the sliding scale at the unit, she has a great nadir. And Deb, I was thinking the same thing when I bg'd her, when is she rising back up to see where and how she's reacting to the insulin. Not sure about a plus 9 tonight, but tomorrow for sure. If I can get a nadir tonight I will be lucky. I irritate her with the two monitors. I wish she understood English better and Why I was doing this.
Funny, thing though, I really thought due to the consistent 3 units, her amps and pmps would have shot down low and thus that is why I wanted to reestablish new units at a higher dose for the lower am and pm, but consistently she stays in the fours with the 3 units. I am shocked :shock:
any suggestions? I read bob, and he seems to say, this is good, don't lower it any further. I am with him due to the 150 nadir, but the high pmps and amps is killing me, and she is cranky too at those levels. let's see what 7 and 9 brings in this week. ;-)
Theresatramondo
Member
tiffy 07/14/13 pmps 477 alpha 3 (micro 434)
hi, I am trying to repost the subject but it is just taking the amps subject. please read the previous note
hi, I am trying to repost the subject but it is just taking the amps subject. please read the previous note
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Theresa,
To update the Subject that shows up on the main index, you go to the very first post in the thread and update it there.
Regarding the Preshots that are still in the 400s... This is probably "bouncing" that you are seeing. Here's what I saw with Bob, and I think many people see the same thing.
Bob started off with preshots like you are seeing. Upper 300s to lower 500s. The numbers in the middle at first were not that great. He was only on 1 unit, twice a day at first. My vet then came up with a sliding scale for me to use. The higher the preshots, the more insulin I gave. Bob was at a top dose of 4u twice a day when his preshots were in the 400s.
That's when the "change" started to take place for him. At first, he had mid-cycle numbers at that dose that were pretty much like you're seeing. Blue numbers. And at first, he bounced right back up again. But that was because even numbers as high as 150-170 were "too low" as far as his system was concerned. When a cat has been uncontrolled diabetic for some time, their body gets used to the higher BG numbers. And when they drop a couple hundred points in 5-6 hours, their system "freaks out". It thinks the BG is too low, even though it isn't low - it's still above "normal". But their bodies aren't "normal" any more. What I found, and others found the same thing was that the more often the cat sees blue numbers, the more "used to" them it gets. And the bounces don't happen as often, and they don't bounce so high. The curve starts to "flatten out". The nadirs stay blue, but the big improvement is that the preshot numbers come down.
That's when things start to improve overall. You see pink preshots, and you start to see green nadirs. And then the bouncing thing can happen again, until the cat "gets used" to green numbers once again. Then the preshots get better. They become yellow or blue even. As the preshots come down, the dose will come down. But you'll still see good nadirs. Yellow preshot, green nadirs. You drop the dose more and you get blue preshots and green nadirs.
As things get better, the curves will get flatter. Because it won't take as much insulin to get the nadirs you want, because there isn't as much difference between the "highs" and the "lows" over the course of a cycle.
The whole process, unfortunately, takes time and lots of patience. It took Bob four weeks of dose increases (which were given too soon and in too large increments really - I didn't post here much or ask for any dose advice when Bob was on insulin. I just read a lot and lurked a lot), and then six weeks coming back down the dose ladder before he went OTJ. And 10 weeks seemed like a lifetime to me then. But in reality, Bob's "dance" was one of the shorter ones I've seen in the two years I've been here. It usually doesn't happen that fast.
So for right now, don't sweat the red numbers at shot time. Most of them seem to me to be "bounces". I think your girl is just trying to get used to "blues" right now, and she'll get there. You don't want to increase and take the chance that the dose will be too much too soon. "Patience Pants" time. ;-) All cats bounce. People ask "how long will they bounce???"
The best answer I've seen on the board is "Kitties bounce. Until they don't". But eventually they stop.
To update the Subject that shows up on the main index, you go to the very first post in the thread and update it there.
Regarding the Preshots that are still in the 400s... This is probably "bouncing" that you are seeing. Here's what I saw with Bob, and I think many people see the same thing.
Bob started off with preshots like you are seeing. Upper 300s to lower 500s. The numbers in the middle at first were not that great. He was only on 1 unit, twice a day at first. My vet then came up with a sliding scale for me to use. The higher the preshots, the more insulin I gave. Bob was at a top dose of 4u twice a day when his preshots were in the 400s.
That's when the "change" started to take place for him. At first, he had mid-cycle numbers at that dose that were pretty much like you're seeing. Blue numbers. And at first, he bounced right back up again. But that was because even numbers as high as 150-170 were "too low" as far as his system was concerned. When a cat has been uncontrolled diabetic for some time, their body gets used to the higher BG numbers. And when they drop a couple hundred points in 5-6 hours, their system "freaks out". It thinks the BG is too low, even though it isn't low - it's still above "normal". But their bodies aren't "normal" any more. What I found, and others found the same thing was that the more often the cat sees blue numbers, the more "used to" them it gets. And the bounces don't happen as often, and they don't bounce so high. The curve starts to "flatten out". The nadirs stay blue, but the big improvement is that the preshot numbers come down.
That's when things start to improve overall. You see pink preshots, and you start to see green nadirs. And then the bouncing thing can happen again, until the cat "gets used" to green numbers once again. Then the preshots get better. They become yellow or blue even. As the preshots come down, the dose will come down. But you'll still see good nadirs. Yellow preshot, green nadirs. You drop the dose more and you get blue preshots and green nadirs.
As things get better, the curves will get flatter. Because it won't take as much insulin to get the nadirs you want, because there isn't as much difference between the "highs" and the "lows" over the course of a cycle.
The whole process, unfortunately, takes time and lots of patience. It took Bob four weeks of dose increases (which were given too soon and in too large increments really - I didn't post here much or ask for any dose advice when Bob was on insulin. I just read a lot and lurked a lot), and then six weeks coming back down the dose ladder before he went OTJ. And 10 weeks seemed like a lifetime to me then. But in reality, Bob's "dance" was one of the shorter ones I've seen in the two years I've been here. It usually doesn't happen that fast.
So for right now, don't sweat the red numbers at shot time. Most of them seem to me to be "bounces". I think your girl is just trying to get used to "blues" right now, and she'll get there. You don't want to increase and take the chance that the dose will be too much too soon. "Patience Pants" time. ;-) All cats bounce. People ask "how long will they bounce???"
The best answer I've seen on the board is "Kitties bounce. Until they don't". But eventually they stop.
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