Switching to Friskies

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Suzanne & Cobb(GA)

Suzanne & Cobb(GA)

Member Since 2013
Ok. I've taken everyone's advice and switched to Friskies. I picked some of the special diet flavors that were on the list you all provided. We'll keep a close eye on his numbers with the food switch. They've been up and down all day. I don't really understand that...

Question though...

I sent yesterday's curve to the vet. She said to keep Cobb on the 10units. That's okay, but she also said to curve again in 2 weeks. I sent her my spreadsheet which shows I'm taking multiple readings every day. I would think this would illustrate we're trying to get a handle on this and get him regulated as quickly as possible. And knowing we've made a food change to lower carb food, wouldn't she know to keep a very close eye on his numbers so he doesn't risk dipping too low?

She also encouraged me to put dry food back out as "treats" for him. We are obviously not going to do that, but why would she say that when it is obviously the dry food was keeping his BG so high?

Someone mentioned another member who had their cat on 11units and their dose had to drop very quickly after making a food switch. How will I know to do this? How will I know how quickly/slowly to reduce, if it comes to that? I'll obviously continue updating here -- I hope you can help us figure this out!! (I'm a tad stressed/irritated/perturbed by the vet and dry food.)
 
I don't know about the vet's thinking. It is hard to hear advice different from your vet, but your gut is right on track. And she is wrong. There is no need to feed dry as snacks - with some cats, only a few pieces raise the bg levels. There are lots of low carb treats - PureBites and Bonito flakes are two of my cats' favorites.

Waiting 2 weeks to do a curve is okay. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't test daily. It is much safer to test before each shot and midcycle so you can see what is happening. Especially with his declining numbers and high dose. If you test before each shot, you'll know if the food decreases his insulin needs and you can lower that high dose. Just shooting at that dose without testing would be really dangerous.
 
Many vets don't even think about remission.
They think about regulation and their goal is to keep the cat there. ( in the 200's)
Most vet's experience with diabetes is for dogs and dog insulin is treated differently. It wears off each cycle.
We see many vets give out lantus and give advice like it's canninsulin.

The old dry food myth is that it's better for their teeth but that has been disproven. My own vet thinks there needs to be a balance with all this high protein
I am feeding my cat but she knows me well enough now to stop trying to change my mind.
give her the link for http://www.catinfo.org and let her counter that.
I believe in Dr. Lisa Pierson's comment that cats need all the moisture they can get. And dry food just robs them of that moisture. They can't drink enough
water to compensate for dry foods lack of moisture.

Someone mentioned another member who had their cat on 11units and their dose had to drop very quickly after making a food switch. How will I know to do this? How will I know how quickly/slowly to reduce, if it comes to that? I'll obviously continue updating here -
Click to expand...

This is why testing is so important. You will see numbers dropping.
make sure you print this in case of power outages, internet failure, or there isn't anyone online when you need them.
how to treat hypos
 
The numbers you're seeing "all over the place" are most likely a bounce...When Cobb dropped to 170, his liver panicked and released hormones and sugar to bring it back up to where it's "Used to" being.

Here's some info on bouncing:
When a cat isnt regulated, the blood glucose has probably been high for a while. As the insulin starts to take effect and numbers start to come down, the liver has to learn to adjust to the lower numbers. We call this "liver training school". But before it relearns that low numbers are ok, when the BG drops to a number lower than the liver is accustomed, or if BGs drop low, or if the BG drops suddenly, the liver”panics” and reacts by releasing counterregulatory hormones and glucagon. This drives the BG back up. This is what we call a "bounce". Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear so we are generally careful about increasing doses during the bounce. Once the bounce clears, then you can see the "real" numbers and determine if the dose needs to go up or down.

Bouncing is normal, but it can be frustrating! The other thing we have to always remember is we're not in control of this dance...our kitties are, so all we can do is hang on for the ride sometimes.

As for your vet, that's old thinking that we still hear way too often. You want to get Cobb's numbers into the "pancreas healing" numbers of 50-130. Good for you for saying "NO" to dry food for any reason!

Is your vet suggesting bringing Cobb in for a curve in 2 weeks? Because if she is, it's totally unnecessary to spend the money for it, especially considering it won't be an accurate reading of his blood glucose anyway. Getting curves done at the vets office are unreliable due to the fact that the cat is stressed..and stress can add up to 180 points to the results. You're better off doing your own testing, and if she wants to see how he's doing, give her the link to your spreadsheet!
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
It is hard to hear advice different from your vet, but your gut is right on track. And she is wrong.
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Yes, it really is. She should be the expert here. She went to a conference or seminar or something on FD for 6 days. I don't want to bet a vet or really be an expert in feline diabetes, but it appears I will have to be! And it is difficult for me to contradict something she says, but I know I have to be an advocate for Cobb. It's hard though because every time I have a question (and I now suspect I've seen a bounce from Cobb before) she tells me "well, this is feline diabetes, it's complicated." She makes it seem like it is too complicated for me to understand. :-(

rhiannon and shadow said:
Many vets don't even think about remission.
They think about regulation and their goal is to keep the cat there. ( in the 200's)
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Yes, I think this is what she is thinking. Right after Cobb was diagnosed my husband did a TON of research on FD and when we went for our orientation session he asked about remission. This is obviously our ultimate goal! The vet/vet tech were very quick to dismiss the idea and said Cobb would be on shots for the rest of his life. There was no question of how aggressive we wanted to be in treating it, etc.

Chris & China said:
Is your vet suggesting bringing Cobb in for a curve in 2 weeks? Because if she is, it's totally unnecessary to spend the money for it, especially considering it won't be an accurate reading of his blood glucose anyway.
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No. We do BGCs at home. She tells us to curve every couple of weeks after we send her a curve. Cobb hates the vet and we do everything we can to limit his visits to once a year.

I'll continue on the path we're on, and I'll keep you all updated on how Cobb's numbers are after the food switch. I REALLY appreciate everyone's help. This is a great resource that I wish I'd taken advantage of back in April. I've learned more than a week than I did in all those months before.
 
Hope Cobb is feeling better with the food switch. It takes time, but remission is possible for many cats. Even if Cobb needs insulin for the rest of his life, knowing you are doing your best for him with the testing, food and shots should make you feel like a good mommabean.

Remember, a cat is more than a set of numbers, they are beloved family members. How there are feeling and eating are key factors to let us know how he's doing. The 5 P's, peeing, pooping, purring, preening and playing plus appetite make up the WCR or Whole Cat Report.

So, how is Cobb feeling today? Your extended FDMB family would like to know. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I think Cobb is feeling good. He is still pretty hungry with the food switch - I had to get up twice last night to feed him and he gobbles the entire bowl down. I know that is because of the diabetes, but it is frustrating because I feel like he is starving and I can't give him enough food. Any suggestions on that would be helpful! Right now he's eating 3 large (5.5oz) cans a day. I know...that's a lot. But even with that he's still hungry - or at least acts like he is since there isn't dry kibble out for him to munch on or maybe comfort him.

I think he might be peeing less, but we just switched cat litters to a crystal one that is supposed to absorb it more. We have been going through a TON of litter.

I have seen several changes over the past week though. He used to demand (yes, literally demand) water be left in both bathroom sinks overnight. He hasn't done that since the food switch. He has also returned to our bed at night...sleeping between us and purring when we pet him. He also has stopped isolating himself to the master bath. Not sure if that was him not feeling well or if he wasn't loving the baby sounds. :-)

AMPS was 299 this morning. Lowest we've seen!!
 
cobbsmom said:
I think Cobb is feeling good. He is still pretty hungry with the food switch - I had to get up twice last night to feed him and he gobbles the entire bowl down. I know that is because of the diabetes, but it is frustrating because I feel like he is starving and I can't give him enough food. Any suggestions on that would be helpful! Right now he's eating 3 large (5.5oz) cans a day. I know...that's a lot. But even with that he's still hungry - or at least acts like he is since there isn't dry kibble out for him to munch on or maybe comfort him.

I think he might be peeing less, but we just switched cat litters to a crystal one that is supposed to absorb it more. We have been going through a TON of litter.

I have seen several changes over the past week though. He used to demand (yes, literally demand) water be left in both bathroom sinks overnight. He hasn't done that since the food switch. He has also returned to our bed at night...sleeping between us and purring when we pet him. He also has stopped isolating himself to the master bath. Not sure if that was him not feeling well or if he wasn't loving the baby sounds. :-)

AMPS was 299 this morning. Lowest we've seen!!
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If your cat is eating low carb wet food, and getting 10units of Lantus BID, I think it's past time to test for feline acromegaly and also IAA. Have you already sent in the tests?

Gayle

ETA: How much food is he eating at the moment? I ask because my two were eating around 30oz and 24oz a day before I got them regulated. Both were positive for acromegaly, but once regulated and in good numbers at good doses, they did not eat near as much.... closer to maybe 10oz and 5oz.

You can also stretch out the food in a good way by souping all wet food which is great to keep the body well hydrated and the urinary tract nice and cleaned out.
 
Blue said:
If your cat is eating low carb wet food, and getting 10units of Lantus BID, I think it's past time to test for feline acromegaly and also IAA. Have you already sent in the tests?
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No. I don't think we're to that point yet. The 10units BID was originally prescribed by the vet when he was on dry food. He has been on wet food for less than a week, and he was on higher carb wet food (Royal Canin diabetic) until yesterday evening, so he hasn't been on low carb wet food for even 24 hours yet. Even with the higher carb wet food his numbers were starting to drop nicely. For now we're going to stick with the diet and monitor change for the next little bit and hope to see lower numbers before we start testing him for other problems.

Blue said:
How much food is he eating at the moment?
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Right now he's eating about 20oz, maybe a little more. The problem, for me, isn't the amount. The problem is he eats it up so quickly. There's no eating a little and then going back for more in an hour or two. I understand his body isn't processing it correctly right now. I'm afraid to feed him more in one sitting because he'll overeat too quickly and then regurgitate it.
 
Have you tried spreading it around on the plate or adding warm water to make a gravy? Sometimes that makes them "linger" over dinner longer.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Have you tried spreading it around on the plate or adding warm water to make a gravy? Sometimes that makes them "linger" over dinner longer.
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I haven't tried that. I'll do that when I feed him next. He prefers a gravy over pate anyway, so maybe that will make the pate more palatable for him.
 
cobbsmom said:
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Have you tried spreading it around on the plate or adding warm water to make a gravy? Sometimes that makes them "linger" over dinner longer.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried that. I'll do that when I feed him next. He prefers a gravy over pate anyway, so maybe that will make the pate more palatable for him.
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If you are not yet using an auto feeder, I think it will be a good idea from the sounds of things....
PetSafe has a very good 5 section feeder which many people use because it is better for a diabetic or any cat needing insulin to have their daily amount of food spread over the day.

For the tests to check for acromegaly and IAA, you would want to have both done...
IAA Test
IGF-1 (Acro) Test

And one thing to keep in mind is that acro cats are not diabetic; they have diabetes because of excess growth hormone output, and so they can go off insulin at any time. One of my own went off insulin in 10days and stayed off for the rest of his life.

I know he may prefer gravy, but gravy, grilled, marinated, wet food, and all dry food are just bad for a cat needing insulin.
As for hypo, dry food takes way way too long to bring a cat's numbers up higher to a safe zone so your vet is wrong in that advice. You want to have a few cans of the gravy food, and to bring up low numbers, you want to get your cat to eat the gravy first so put some of the gravy in a dish, then test again after 15min.... gravy or honey or karo will bring up numbers the quickest, but won't last long, so you would need to test a few more times to be sure the numbers stay up or give more gravy.

Gayle
 
Thanks. I didn't mean to suggest we were giving him gravy...just that he prefers it over a pate. I am feeding him off the list provided here and we have Karo syrup in case of a hypo event.

We have an auto feeder but haven't had success with it in the past. The good would dry out too quickly for him but we may try it again with some water added.
 
Souping food is done by many to keep up the hydration in the cats, and for sure help keep the urinary tract clear.
You can start slow with adding water, 1 part water to 2 parts food, and get up to equal parts water and food.
You will notice a difference in the coat with the added water and the better BG numbers.

Gayle
 
One comment on the numbers you are seeing.

The dropping to 200s are great and likely a reflection of a food change, but the 170 could be a few things, one of them being a break in resistance, then a pullback...... not everything is a bounce.

Gayle
 
Blue said:
You will notice a difference in the coat with the added water and the better BG numbers.
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Yes! I noticed his coat felt softer, more normal this morning. Whatever it is, he's definitely feeling better. We'll keep an eye on the numbers. I've felt the 10units was too much for some time, so I'm hoping the food change will ultimately mean at least a lower dose.
 
rhiannon and shadow wrote:Many vets don't even think about remission.
They think about regulation and their goal is to keep the cat there. ( in the 200's)


Yes, I think this is what she is thinking. Right after Cobb was diagnosed my husband did a TON of research on FD and when we went for our orientation session he asked about remission. This is obviously our ultimate goal! The vet/vet tech were very quick to dismiss the idea and said Cobb would be on shots for the rest of his life. There was no question of how aggressive we wanted to be in treating it, etc.
Click to expand...


Remission was my goal too and I am one of the lucky ones enjoying that status.
But remission isn't a cure. I have a diet controlled diabetic, for now. I know that eventually we will be back doing the shot routine.
Remission is just a temporary vacation from shots until it ends.



I am glad you are watching/monitoring. Cobbs might start going lower in bg after the dry food completely leaves his system. It takes a few days.
 
Hi Suzanne and extra sweet Cobb!!

Looks like you're really doing great so far! From the 600's to the 200's in less than a week!!

It's also great to hear that Cobb is acting like he feels better and returning to his "former" self. One of the first things I noticed with China was she was preening again. I hadn't really realized she wasn't until we started on Lantus and I saw her and then I realized it HAD been a long time since she'd groomed herself. As the days went on, the peeing and drinking decreased dramatically, as well as the amount of food she'd eat, and then she was playing games she hadn't played in a long time and I knew we were on the right track!

I think that you'll probably be coming down the dose ladder soon if he continues to respond so well to the diet change.
 
Chris & China said:
One of the first things I noticed with China was she was preening again. I hadn't really realized she wasn't until we started on Lantus and I saw her and then I realized it HAD been a long time since she'd groomed herself.
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You know...now that you mention this I remember seeing him grooming himself the other day and thinking I hadn't seen that in awhile. I figured I'd just been missing it, but maybe I hadn't!

Christ & China said:
I think that you'll probably be coming down the dose ladder soon if he continues to respond so well to the diet change.
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I certainly hope so!

We're still having weird high numbers at the +6 mark. I'm not sure what to make of that. Is something happening in the 3 hours between +2 and +6? It is encouraging starting the day in the 200s, but then seeing a random 300+ number during the cycle where I thought the BG should be lower. Perhaps still an effect of the higher carb wet food? I do hope to be seeing more blue and green numbers in the next week or so -- it'll confirm that I'm doing the right thing.
 
It's too soon to jump to any conclusions but you're definitely heading in the right direction

The fact that Cobb has gone from 600's to 200's should tell you you're doing something right!! Just keep following the protocol and we'll see what his numbers look like.

Here's the protocol:
"General" Guidelines:
Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 consecutive cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles).
Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).
Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.

Increasing the dose:
Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

I don't have any experience with high dose kitties, so hopefully someone who does have more experience will chime in soon.

Take your joy in the little victories for now..the fact that he's acting like he feels better and is returning to more normal behaviors!

I'd like to invite you to come over to the Lantus Tight Regulation Forum

On the TR board, you'll get lots of advice from people using Lantus. Posts are done a little differently there though.

Each day you start a new post (we call them condo's) and put the date, cats name and the AMPS into the subject line (so for you, today's would be 11/30 Cobb AMPS 266,+2 209,+6 338) As you get new tests in, you just edit that first post and add them.

In the body of the post, first put the link to the prior day's condo in so people can quickly glance back to see your history, then you give the WCR (Whole Cat Report)..things like how Cobb's appetite is, how he's feeling, are the 5 P's in place? (Preening, Purring, Playing, Peeing and Pooping), as well as any questions you might have.

If you do include a question in your condo, add the ? icon to that first post (so if you have a question later in the day after you've already posted your condo, you'd go back to that first post and "edit" to add the ? icon...that way people scanning the board can see you have a question.

You are free to continue to post here in Health, but I hope to see you over in TR soon! Since pretty much everyone there uses Lantus, you'll get lots of people looking at Cobb's spreadsheet and giving you advice on what to do to keep getting those better numbers
 
Suzanne,

Nobody is jumping to conclusions; people who have experience have stated what is possible.
I hope you realize that a dose of 10u BID would kill some cats, and the fact that you have switched to wet food and have seen a good drop in numbers but have stayed with the same dose of 10u should be a suggestion that something is going on, so keep alert.

Unfortunately, I don't see a drop to 200s and staying there, but rather I am seeing pullback into 300s.
In case I missed it, when was the last dental and what was found and done?

I am one who has experience with high dose cats, two of mine were diagnosed with acromegaly and one with IAA as well.
I would think that after a week on the wet food and no dry, you shold be seeing better numbers AND a much lower dose, but I am not seeing that happen.

Your cat is quite heavy; you mentioned 17lbs? There are other signs of resistance, so you may want to look up signs, like noisy breathing, snoring, pot belly, etc.
I don't know where you are located but there is no harm in your preparing for the tests by printing out the 2 test links I posted earlier, take them to your vet and ask for an estimate of cost...the tests are done at MSU, so the cost will be the Fedex for shipping... the tests are not high, $16 and $52, so just add on the vet's cost to draw the blood and package for shipping to get the cost to you.

If you are still getting numbers in the 200s or higher, are feeding low carb wet food, and using a decent meter, you don't need to rush in testing if the dose remains at 10u because your cat will very likely test positive for acromegaly.
It is pretty important to know that status because you will need to watch for heart issues as it's very common with acros as is soft tissue growth.

Gayle
 
Blue said:
Nobody is jumping to conclusions; people who have experience have stated what is possible.
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I always assumed that people were offering their opinions based on their own experiences and not jumping to any conclusions. While his numbers have dropped and then risen back into the 300s, this could be (from what I'm gathering here) because we hadn't completely switched off the RC diabetic, which is a higher carb wet food. He hasn't been eating the Friskies for every meal for even 24 hours yet.

Blue said:
In case I missed it, when was the last dental and what was found and done?
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Cobb doesn't have any dental work done. That is because he is a pill at the vet and they have to put him under anesthesia. He had a horrible reaction to anesthesia when he had to have a bladder blockage removed when he was much younger. It almost killed him. The vet thought he had had a mini-stroke because he was listing to one side and couldn't stand up without falling. It's been years since that and he is fine -- no lingering issues from that. But due to that, unless it is absolutely necessary, he will not get any anesthesia.
 
Under the heading of "Be Prepared":

There have been some advances in feline anesthesia and there are a number of different methods and agents which may be used. You might ask your vet to read up on them, or consult with someone else who specializes in anesthesia.
 
we hadn't completely switched off the RC diabetic
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which one specifically do you have?... I'm looking at their website and our other charts to see what carb value it is.


I thought it had just been a day or two that you took away the dry....
that's why I had said to be watchful for drops just in case his dose turns out to be much higher than it should be when all this plays out. ( diet change)
 
rhiannon and shadow said:
we hadn't completely switched off the RC diabetic
Click to expand...

which one specifically do you have?... I'm looking at their website and our other charts to see what carb value it is.
Click to expand...

It is the Royal Canin diabetic turkey and giblets.

Sorry if I was unclear! We had a lot of wet prescription food from the vet. Everyone told me on Wednesday that the prescription foods were still too high carb. Because of Thanksgiving we were unable to get different food. So yesterday we went and bought the Friskies. We'll be using that from here on out. He got a can of the RC today by accident. We don't want to overfeed him, but he is hungry so we're going to go with the big cans until he gets that hunger under control. That will be a lot of food a day though...several 5.5oz cans.
 
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