Stale Mate. What am I doing wrong?

[Kris10S]

Update: Sorry it's long!

Oliver's numbers are still kind of all over the board and my husband and I got into an argument about what to do next. Oliver is mine, but he has been invested in him since we have been together for almost 5 years now. He wants to be involved in his treatment, but doesn't believe me when I tell him things or always has a "comment" to make with no solution. We are at a stale mate and I thought it best to lay it all out again in one thread and get some additional thoughts and opinions from experienced diabetic cat owners although I know that every cat is different.

We switched to all wet food 8/26 Friskies Pate all flavors. He's eating 2 cans a day. Is that enough, too much, not enough? He was 17lbs and the vet wanted him to lose about 3lbs total and we think he is down some, but not sure how much. He wakes me up at about 3amish starving, I give 1/4 to hold him over and then feed 1/2 a can at 6am. I usually wait until he's eaten all or just about all before giving his insulin at 6:30am. Sometimes (like this morning) he is whining like hes starving an hour before meal time. He was so agitated and restless with what I am assuming is hunger that I failed at getting a reading. It's worse when we come home from work, because from about 4:30- 6 all he does is whine for food. Could his agitated/hunger state of whining for over an hour make his sugar higher than it should be? He used to just lay around and I could easily test before meals, but this week he is fighting me on it no matter if I give him treats before i do it.

Schedule breakdown
3am-4am (sometimes)- Wakes me up whining give 1/4 can
6am- 1/2 can
6:30am- Insulin 2.5
7:45am- Husband leaves 1/2 out for daily grazing before leaving for work
4:30-5pm- walks around whining for dinner
6pm- dinner time 1/2 can
6:30pm- Insulin 2.5
9:30-10- set out another 1/2 can for overnight

We established a dose limit with the vet this week since we had come blue and green numbers. She said she liked the bounce he was doing bc it showed the insulin is working and that this might be the best dose for him and wants us to stay the course for 3 more weeks provided we don't see a drastic change in numbers. She likes us home testing, but said it doesn't have to be an everyday thing in her opinion.

Under 100- nothing
100-200- half or 1.25
above 200- whole 2.5

Basically I want to know that he is getting the right amount of food. I know I need more mid readings, but it's really only possible on the weekends. With me being 8 months pregnant my bed time is getting earlier and with him getting me up at 3 am and sometimes 5 am when he is supposed to eat at 6am this is where we are at.

He for the most part has been acting more like himself, although I think he might be drinking a bit more water slightly again, but not sitting at the bowl for minutes at a time like before, maybe out of habit? He is sleeping and bathing in common areas and not hiding. He is asking (by asking I mean he sits on the side of the bed and stares at me) for treats (pieces of dry food) like he used to at night before bed.

Thanks in advance for your time and please ask questions if you need something clarified as I need all the help I can get right now. Being an emotional mess only makes this harder.

What am I doing wrong or right in your opinion?

 

[Tracey&Jones (GA)]

Basically I want to know that he is getting the right amount of food. I know I need more mid readings, but it's really only possible on the weekends. With me being 8 months pregnant my bed time is getting earlier and with him getting me up at 3 am and sometimes 5 am when he is supposed to eat at 6am this is where we are at.

Hi, I don't have dosing advise but I can say, until he is regulated he is not able to absorb all the nutrients/energy from the food he is eating. So he is hungry! I would be more worried about him not getting enough right now vs. getting too much as weight loss due to diabetes is not good weight loss. You noted that he needed to lose weight but that can be managed better once his diabetes is better regulated.

There is a calculation: # of lbs ideal weight x 13.5 +70 = total calorie intake required in a day. This might make it easier for you to figure out how much he should be getting. You can then decide if he needs more for now. Once they are in better numbers you will find they will eat less, as their body can access the energy from the food better.

 

[Waheeda]

HI
Mine had about 8 cans a day plus dry food to graze whole day before regulated. Freaked me out during that time but I just keep feeding whenever he asked for it. But once regulated, he didn't ask for food as often.

 

[StephG]

Have you thought about using an auto feeder? You could break up the 1/2 can into separate feedings. I put an ice cube on top to keep it fresh and cool. That also gives them more water and seems to help my cat feel satisfied with his half ounce snacks.
My cat would drive me insane begging for food toward the end of his cycle. I would give him a drop or two of chicken and broth baby food (beechnut brand) mixed with 1/4 cup water 2 hours and 15 minutes before his shot. I set the feeder to turn 2 hours before his shot, that way he didn't get any in that time frame. It helped.
I use the petsafe 5 meal feeder.
https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Meal-Automatic-Pet-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
I have a civvie that is 17 pounds and on a diet. I feed him 2 cans of friskies pate a day and he has lost weight. It's a slow process and should be too prevent other medical issues. He begs me MORE than my Diabetic cat now. It drives me nuts and I feel bad because he's a pretty good actor. I do think right now the Diabetes is the bigger issue and once you get better control of that it will be easier for him to lose the weight the right way.

 

[Kris10S]

There is a calculation: # of lbs ideal weight x 13.5 +70 = total calorie intake required in a day. This might make it easier for you to figure out how much he should be getting. You can then decide if he needs more for now. Once they are in better numbers you will find they will eat less, as their body can access the energy from the food better.

If we go by that calculation then I think he is getting more than enough food, but he still whines with hunger.

HI
Mine had about 8 cans a day plus dry food to graze whole day before regulated. Freaked me out during that time but I just keep feeding whenever he asked for it. But once regulated, he didn't ask for food as often.

What dry food were you using? We are thinking about upping it to a full can at meal times and then leaving dry out to graze again and see if it helps at all. We can't afford 8 cans a day with a baby coming.

Have you thought about using an auto feeder? You could break up the 1/2 can into separate feedings. I put an ice cube on top to keep it fresh and cool. That also gives them more water and seems to help my cat feel satisfied with his half ounce snacks.
My cat would drive me insane begging for food toward the end of his cycle. I would give him a drop or two of chicken and broth baby food (beechnut brand) mixed with 1/4 cup water 2 hours and 15 minutes before his shot. I set the feeder to turn 2 hours before his shot, that way he didn't get any in that time frame. It helped.
I use the petsafe 5 meal feeder.
https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Meal-Automatic-Pet-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
I have a civvie that is 17 pounds and on a diet. I feed him 2 cans of friskies pate a day and he has lost weight. It's a slow process and should be too prevent other medical issues. He begs me MORE than my Diabetic cat now. It drives me nuts and I feel bad because he's a pretty good actor. I do think right now the Diabetes is the bigger issue and once you get better control of that it will be easier for him to lose the weight the right way.

I have thought about an auto feeder, but we didn't want to invest any more $ into this process until we really found something that worked, but this would probably help while we are figuring that out...

 

[FurBabiesMama]

I wonder if spreading the meals out more evenly would help - 1/2 can at 6am, 12pm, 6pm, 12am. You would need an auto feeder for the 12pm and 12am times due to your schedule. Maybe he eats what your husband puts out at 7:45am right after your husband leaves so he is super hungry by early evening. Likewise, maybe he eats what you put out for overnight too soon so that he is super hungry again by early morning.

You may have to let him whine in the mornings and not give in. My girls start wanting their food somewhere between 4 and 5 am (their breakfast time is also 6am). At first, they did whine, but after a while of that getting them nowhere, they stopped. Now, they just sit just outside my bedroom waiting for me to get up and feed them. I know they just had food a few hours earlier, so they are not really starving.

If you have him on all wet food, I would hate to see you start adding dry food now. My cats always ate only dry food before this, so the transition was a little rough. I was using Young Again Zero Mature dry food at first, but they ended up eating more of that, and it was hard to get them to eat much wet at all. Now that I have managed to get them on all wet, I sure do not want to backslide. On the other hand, if you decide that with everything going on in your life, you cannot deal with the food issues, that is a good dry food for you to use.

 

[Kris10S]

I wonder if spreading the meals out more evenly would help - 1/2 can at 6am, 12pm, 6pm, 12am. You would need an auto feeder for the 12pm and 12am times due to your schedule. Maybe he eats what your husband puts out at 7:45am right after your husband leaves so he is super hungry by early evening. Likewise, maybe he eats what you put out for overnight too soon so that he is super hungry again by early morning.

You may have to let him whine in the mornings and not give in. My girls start wanting their food somewhere between 4 and 5 am (their breakfast time is also 6am). At first, they did whine, but after a while of that getting them nowhere, they stopped. Now, they just sit just outside my bedroom waiting for me to get up and feed them. I know they just had food a few hours earlier, so they are not really starving.

If you have him on all wet food, I would hate to see you start adding dry food now. My cats always ate only dry food before this, so the transition was a little rough. I was using Young Again Zero Mature dry food at first, but they ended up eating more of that, and it was hard to get them to eat much wet at all. Now that I have managed to get them on all wet, I sure do not want to backslide. On the other hand, if you decide that with everything going on in your life, you cannot deal with the food issues, that is a good dry food for you to use.

We moved our camera to the basement where his food is and he doesn't eat it all right away, but he does eat it all before noon probably. On the weekends I space it out like that during the day, but I don't know that it has made much of a difference. I hate to add the dry back in too, but he was a champ at switching to the wet with no real issues and we did the wet and dry combo for a couple weeks too. When I give him the dry for his treats he gobbles them up. There is NO way I will be able to just let him whine from 3-6am. I physically and emotionally wouldn't be able to do that, especially in the condition I am in. We might need to try the auto feeder and gradually change the time on it because he's usually hungry around the time we are going to bed bc that's when I used to check his bowl and make sure he had something in it. All the years of over feeding is definitely kicking me in the tail!

 

[StephG]

Young again zero mature is also nutrient dense. It really helped my cat gain weight. They should get about a 1/4 cup. My cat's would eat the furniture if that's all they got to eat. They say once they realize it's always there they won't eat more than they need but with a diabetic it's hard to tell. Over eating it will increase BG too.
Hope you can get it all figured out.

 

[Kris10S]

Young again zero mature is also nutrient dense. It really helped my cat gain weight. They should get about a 1/4 cup. My cat's would eat the furniture if that's all they got to eat. They say once they realize it's always there they won't eat more than they need but with a diabetic it's hard to tell. Over eating it will increase BG too.
Hope you can get it all figured out.

By 1/4 do you mean in addition to something else?

We have a HUGE bag of the DM dry food and I was just going to use that for the time being. I know it's a higher carb content, BUT we have it and I don't want to waste all of it which we are doing now.

I discussed with my husband trying a whole can at feeding times and then say 1/4 dry left out for a 12 hr. period?
thoughts?

 

[FurBabiesMama]

We have a HUGE bag of the DM dry food and I was just going to use that for the time being. I know it's a higher carb content, BUT we have it and I don't want to waste all of it which we are doing now.

I do not know how the carb content of DM compares, but I have Hill's m/d on hand. I believe the wet food is 13% carbs and the dry about 18%. (Her normal wet food is 3%.) I have used these when Mia's BG was getting a little lower than I was comfortable with to steer her up a little. So, just be aware that the carbs in those foods do have a direct impact on BG numbers.

 

[Kris10S]

I do not know how the carb content of DM compares, but I have Hill's m/d on hand. I believe the wet food is 13% carbs and the dry about 18%. (Her normal wet food is 3%.) I have used these when Mia's BG was getting a little lower than I was comfortable with to steer her up a little. So, just be aware that the carbs in those foods do have a direct impact on BG numbers.

Yes the carb content is higher and I believe 18% is correct. and the wet food is 3-5% that we are using. Our Vet said it might help with holding him over between meals. She is also the one who said that it was okay for him to be on that 100%...

I just want to do what is right, just don't know how that looks!

 

[Tracey&Jones (GA)]

but he still whines with hunger

He will as he can't get the full benefit of all those calories right now.

A feeder is a good option. Jones free feeds but I really think the snacks throughout the day help with keeping BG's constant and lower. The act of eating helps stimulate the digestive system and stimulating the pancreas to do its job.

I give about 80% of his calorie intake needs in the feeder twice daily. I also leave a little extra out - just in case he is running high and needs a few more calories or if he may run low and need some extra food. He can then eat at his leisure. I use the other 20% for when giving him food at shot time. Jones is on Lantus, so don't know if that makes a difference. Some days he eats every bite and some days only about 1/2 is gone.

The higher carb content will help satisfy his appetite but will push the numbers/insulin needs up and help pack on the pounds!

Again...I would be more worried about him losing weight while trying to get him regulated. The appetite will sort itself out after that and then I would worry about weight loss.

 

[StephG]

You could try adding a cheaper wet food. I fed my cat 9 lives and I have since the beginning. I get 12 cans for a little under $5 at Walmart. He loves it and my civvie won't touch it. Works out perfect for us.
The young again is 1/4 cup a day. That was for my cat. Suggested by the company.
If you add the Dm dry food, I would expect an increase in his numbers and possibly an increase in his insulin. Some people feed that and just adjust the insulin to what they need.
If you do feed the dry. When you get ready to stop it (when it is running low) be careful if you have increased his insulin dose. His needs might drop as soon as he stops the dry.

 

[JanetNJ]

My non diabetic 16-17 pound cat ate 12-15 ounces (4-5 3oz cans) per day. Diabetics often need more than non diabetic cats. I think if your cat is hungry, feed him. Right now you are giving just about 11-12 ounces a day... You may have to up it. I'd go with 3 cans of Friskies per day until his numbers are consistently down and his appetite decreases.

 

[JanetNJ]

Maybe do 1/2 can preshot
1 can out to graze
1/2 can preshot
1 can overnight

3 cans total.

 

[Kris10S]

My non diabetic 16-17 pound cat ate 12-15 ounces (4-5 3oz cans) per day. Diabetics often need more than non diabetic cats. I think if your cat is hungry, feed him. Right now you are giving just about 11-12 ounces a day... You may have to up it. I'd go with 3 cans of Friskies per day until his numbers are consistently down and his appetite decreases.

Maybe do 1/2 can preshot
1 can out to graze
1/2 can preshot
1 can overnight

3 cans total.

Sorry I am just responding to these. I took a weekend off to regroup. I still tested Oliver here and there when I could, but it's getting harder for me to do so. Plus I am starting to get discouraged again. His numbers stayed pretty much the same this past week/weekend with the exception of last night. But I was also able to hold meals, vs us leaving them out in the morning for the whole day. There was times he would come do the care bear stare at me like he was hungry and I would set food down, but he wouldn't eat it and I would come back and it would be gone. I am waiting on a call back from the Vet about seeing if we need to up his dose. We decided last week NOT to up it bc he had some low numbers, but I think we figured out that it's bc he was only getting ONE can of food a day bc the dog was squeezing his 40lb butt through the gate eating all of his food! Now that it isn't happening we aren't getting below 230 somethings.

Tonight I am going to try the whole can, the little booger has been getting me up at 3:30 for a week now and I just can't take it anymore! Unfortunately in my condition I hear EVERYTHING not to mention he's my baby so the mom in me hears him whining next to the bed.

Thoughts on dosage?

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Sorry I am just responding to these. I took a weekend off to regroup. I still tested Oliver here and there when I could, but it's getting harder for me to do so. Plus I am starting to get discouraged again. His numbers stayed pretty much the same this past week/weekend with the exception of last night. But I was also able to hold meals, vs us leaving them out in the morning for the whole day. There was times he would come do the care bear stare at me like he was hungry and I would set food down, but he wouldn't eat it and I would come back and it would be gone. I am waiting on a call back from the Vet about seeing if we need to up his dose. We decided last week NOT to up it bc he had some low numbers, but I think we figured out that it's bc he was only getting ONE can of food a day bc the dog was squeezing his 40lb butt through the gate eating all of his food! Now that it isn't happening we aren't getting below 230 somethings.

Tonight I am going to try the whole can, the little booger has been getting me up at 3:30 for a week now and I just can't take it anymore! Unfortunately in my condition I hear EVERYTHING not to mention he's my baby so the mom in me hears him whining next to the bed.

Thoughts on dosage?

I do think the dose needs to go up but I know the testing is becoming very difficult for you. We here always worry about dosing without testing PS. I wouldn't go up by a half unit, though. I'd try eyeballing 2.75 u. Is your husband willing to take on the testing task?

 

[Kris10S]

I do think the dose needs to go up but I know the testing is becoming very difficult for you. We here always worry about dosing without testing PS. I wouldn't go up by a half unit, though. I'd try eyeballing 2.75 u. Is your husband willing to take on the testing task?

That's what I was thinking and I was going to do that dose last night, but his pre-shot number was in the 200's so I decided against it. Oliver fights me on the testing, but we are in a decent rhythm, the only problem is our spot his him laying on the floor in the kitchen and it's the getting down and up part that's hard. My husband hasn't fully jumped into this whole thing so we will see. Part of me just wants to do it because I don't trust anyone else with my babies needs.

 

[Kris & Teasel]

That's what I was thinking and I was going to do that dose last night, but his pre-shot number was in the 200's so I decided against it. Oliver fights me on the testing, but we are in a decent rhythm, the only problem is our spot his him laying on the floor in the kitchen and it's the getting down and up part that's hard. My husband hasn't fully jumped into this whole thing so we will see. Part of me just wants to do it because I don't trust anyone else with my babies needs.

Maybe you could move his testing spot up higher on a bed or the couch to make it easier for you?

 

[Kris10S]

Maybe you could move his testing spot up higher on a bed or the couch to make it easier for you?

It's been multiple spots, but now when I grab the treats and testing stuff he walks to the mat in the Kitchen so I don't want to revert back to having to chase him down or something. Plus, it's where we used to get his morning treats anyway so it's kind of like it's "normal" for him. I will do anything for this boy so I will power on!

 

[Kris10S]

Well we upped the dosage to 2.75 and I left out a whole can over night and got a FULL night's sleep! The only problem is, he wouldn't eat his 1/2 can breakfast this morning. He ate about 1/4 I think and I still gave his shot. My husband is going home on his lunch today to check-in and leave more food out for the afternoon. If it's not one thing it's another! We need to order the auto feeder!