Spike 10/30, Started New Bottle of ProZinc Yesterday

Lee Renfro

Lee Renfro

Active Member
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/spike-10-28-pmps-512-0-90u-given.268494/#post-3012421
@FrostD I started a new bottle of ProZinc at his PMPS last night. His numbers are steadily trending up into the deep red and even got a 512/565 the other night from same blood droplet...variance... The Vet stated the obvious that it was time for a new bottle finally and to maintain course on dosing to see if the new bottle has more efficacy since it's fresher. He finally admitted that going on 8 months is probably the limit for Prozinc bottles...lol. The Vet said to continue the @FrostD and FDMB program and if we have any trouble to call and he would get Spike right into the office....lolol

I have really fattened his dosage today as I saw no difference today and I hate seeing him so high. I don't think it's bringing him down at the nadir like it used to, but as you stated, we can't be sure if I don't test. I can imagine that he feels bad, but I think he hides it well from me. He is eating well except for pill time, then he gets finicky and I have to keep putting in front of him until he finally eats the bite with the crushed pill in it.

Thank you and check the crystal ball and see what Spike is thinking...lol
 
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Hello, Lee! It’s good to hear from you. I hope you are doing all right. I feel sorry to see those reds on Spike’s spreadsheet. That’s hard on him. I hope his kidneys are still stable, too.

What do you mix Spike’s Benazepril into? He won’t eat it in a pill pocket? I guess he won’t let you just directly pop the pill into hos mouth with a soft-tipped “piller?” If he’s reluctant to eat it, my recommendation would be to try mixing it into some Gerber ham baby food. Seriously I mean the ham and not a different meat. Ham is generally the most popular flavor for all cats. Try it; it may really work for you- although you may have to play with how much to give him (the proportion of pill to ham baby food.)

I hope the fresh insulin will help - or I guess you will possibly have to re-work your sliding dose scale if something else is driving up his numbers. Hopefully, you can get a few test in here and there to see. I don’t see many from this past weekend. If you can’t test much on a daily (or nightly) basis, then you really should be doing a “curve” from time to time, or you really have no idea where Spike’s BG is going during a cycle. I would probably try to replace insulin every six months under normal conditions, if possible.

Sorry this sounds like a lecture…. I didn’t mean it to be!
 
FrostD said:
I'd give the new bottle a week or two, hard to tell what's going on (bounces vs maybe something else underlying - has he had kidney labs redone at all?)
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The Vet made his appointment for Feb 2023. I questioned it, but accepted the appointment date. I may take him back for a full bloodwork later this month especially if his BG doesn't start improving.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Hello, Lee! It’s good to hear from you. I hope you are doing all right. I feel sorry to see those reds on Spike’s spreadsheet. That’s hard on him. I hope his kidneys are still stable, too.

What do you mix Spike’s Benazepril into? He won’t eat it in a pill pocket? I guess he won’t let you just directly pop the pill into hos mouth with a soft-tipped “piller?” If he’s reluctant to eat it, my recommendation would be to try mixing it into some Gerber ham baby food. Seriously I mean the ham and not a different meat. Ham is generally the most popular flavor for all cats. Try it; it may really work for you- although you may have to play with how much to give him (the proportion of pill to ham baby food.)

I hope the fresh insulin will help - or I guess you will possibly have to re-work your sliding dose scale if something else is driving up his numbers. Hopefully, you can get a few test in here and there to see. I don’t see many from this past weekend. If you can’t test much on a daily (or nightly) basis, then you really should be doing a “curve” from time to time, or you really have no idea where Spike’s BG is going during a cycle. I would probably try to replace insulin every six months under normal conditions, if possible.

Sorry this sounds like a lecture…. I didn’t mean it to be!
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Thank you, as I love and appreciate ALL the advise i can get from you and FrostD.
 
@FrostD @Suzanne & Darcy. I'm just checking in and getting ready for a cold and quiet weekend here with the kitties. After several decent numbers in a row and a couple of high blues, naturally he bounces to 458 by this evening. I'm trying to keep him in the 0.50u to 0.75u dosage and not vary as much and by so much. I thought it was working well until today.

Hope yalls weekend will be pleasant.
 
Hmm, wonder how low he went today. Bouncy boy! He did look good the last few days.

Cold weekend too with snowstorm coming...I'm sure that's when the baby will decide to come :rolleyes:
 
Well, that’s cats for ya! They’re always going to throw you a curve ball! Keep on keeping on!

Let me ask you…. How is it that you don’t know how old Spike is? Where did he come from? I think I missed this part of his background.
 
FrostD said:
Hmm, wonder how low he went today. Bouncy boy! He did look good the last few days.

Cold weekend too with snowstorm coming...I'm sure that's when the baby will decide to come :rolleyes:
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That baby still hasn’t come yet!!??? You are right that baby will probably pick this time to make a grand entrance!
 
@FrostD @Suzanne & Darcy. Spike has continually been so high lately, so I tried a 0.90u dose tonight. Its been a couple of weeks of holding him fairly steady at 0.50u to 0.75u but he's just climbing higher as time goes by. We haven't seen a good blue in days.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. I get the 4 day weekend and plan on getting some good mid-cycle tests in.

You know how dramatic Spike is when it comes to increases, so....
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Well, that’s cats for ya! They’re always going to throw you a curve ball! Keep on keeping on!

Let me ask you…. How is it that you don’t know how old Spike is? Where did he come from? I think I missed this part of his background.
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Spike was barely weaned when my Mom found him while out walking our dalmatian, "Dottie". He followed them home and adopted both my Mom AND Dottie as his new mommies. Dottie loved her baby Spike too. They were best friends.

When my parents moved to our land I'm now living on in Smithland, Tx near Jefferson, Tx., Mom got all the Vet records to transfer to the new Vet. I've found one patient chart notes dated 9/30/2011 which states that Spike was 5 years old. This puts his birthday in 2006. There is a second patient chart notes page stating Spike was 13 years old on 6/15/2019, which puts his birthday in 2003. So he is either 16 or 19 years old based solely on my detective work with his Vet records. I was living in Dallas during that time. I remember my folks getting this mischief filled, lovable fella, who slept with the dog, or would try to climb inside my Dads house slippers, but don't recall what year exactly and I never asked Mom....naturally, I hope he's just 16...lol.
 
@FrostD @Suzanne & Darcy HI. Spike is going thru a run if some pretty high numbers these past few days. Wonder what I'm doing wrong or what is changing.

I've been sick with an upped respiratory infection all week and it's been hard to stay on schedule but it's getting better today.

Just felt I'd better check in and let y'all put eyes on his SS. He seems fine but look at all those terrible reds this week.
 
Hmmm mystery indeed. It's a little hard to say...I think you're seeing a combination of bounces and the effects of dose changing too much perhaps.

It does look like he needs to go up to 1u on the higher end. The dose in the 200s looks ok...

Alternatively, just revisiting the idea of a consistent dose above 200 since the sliding scale doesn't seem to be doing what we want it to. Probably about 0.5U, but it would take probably 1-2 weeks to see what a consistent dose does for him.
 
@FrostD & @Suzanne & Darcy please look at Spikes SS when you have time. I've been giving 1.0u and he is crazy high REDS and as far as I can tell isn't coming down. I checked sever times last nite and I'm worried sick. I am at work right now (1st day back after being sick).

Is the 1.0u dose too much and he's bouncing or riding out a superlong bounce, or is 1.0u not enuf now???
 
I don't think it's too much...he's definitely bouncing but I don't think from anything too low. I think he's just not used to anything blue.
 
FrostD said:
I don't think it's too much...he's definitely bouncing but I don't think from anything too low. I think he's just not used to anything blue.
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He finally had a blue (160)@AMPS+10 today and i was sure happy to finally see it like a prayer answered. This is with him getting the 0.75u dose. He got another 0.75u dose tonight as he was back up to 281@PMPS. He was at 209@PMPS+4. I prefer this territory as opposed to all the terrible reds he's been having so consistently. Intry to get a ketone strip wet, but he's been to sneaky these past few days...lol

Please pray for us to get into some good blues soon. Hope you have beendoing good and your baby finally made an entrance. What a blessing.
 
Spike saw the vet Monday. His BUN is up to 63 and vet ordered me a case of Hills Science Diet K/D prescription food...I know this isn't much help and not a very good diet product, so any help would be much loved.

Check Spikes SS and y'all can see his normal Rollercoaster BG #'s.

We are doing OK, just crazy busy at work and long hours. The vet is calling Spike in "stage 2 kidney disease". Yes, I need all the advise you all can give me.

Vet said that the Hills K/D was OK for his urinary tract and to get him off the ProPlan UTH when the food comes in tomorrow or Monday...I hate the wait but everyone has it on order rather than in stock.

Spike seems to be feeling good and hungry as usual.

Yes, I need all the advise I can get from you all. I was gonna reach out on here when I could sit and type a post.

Hope yall are doing well. @FrostD @Suzanne & Darcy
 
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I'm really sorry to hear that Spike's BUN has increased. What was the number last time? It's good that he still has a good appetite and the uremic toxins aren't apparently making him feel ill. The Hill's K/D is actually pretty palatable. It probably is the best choice for Spike at this point. I used it before and it's a pretty good food but is high in carbs. I don't know which flavor she's ordered for you, there are different ones e.g., with tuna, chicken and vegetable stew, etc. Darcy liked most of them. The Royal Canin kidney diets were also some of the ones he liked (the E for enticing one, as I recall.) The new Weruva Wx foods come in a lot of different flavors and are designed specifically to be ultra low in phosphorus (to spare the kidneys) and very low in carbs. Of course, they are high protein. Do you happen to know what his phosphorus level was? Also, his Creatinine? Had that also increased? The most important thing at this stage is probably to keep phosphorus under control (the food will help) and to keep him hydrated. Did your vet recommend giving him sub-q fluids at all? Or is she holding off on that until later? I did look at Spike's spreadsheet yesterday when I wrote to you. It's nice to see those blues on there for the last three nights. Good job on catching those tests. I'm attaching a link to a food chart for therapeutic kidney foods, which lists carbs, phosphorus, calories, etc.

It's good to hear from you! Try not to be a stranger :-)

http://felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm#therapeutic_kidney_foods
 
And I was just looking at his beautiful photo! Those eyes!!!! Too bad I'm not on my phone or I would add lots of hearts to this message.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I'm really sorry to hear that Spike's BUN has increased. What was the number last time? It's good that he still has a good appetite and the uremic toxins aren't apparently making him feel ill. The Hill's K/D is actually pretty palatable. It probably is the best choice for Spike at this point. I used it before and it's a pretty good food but is high in carbs. I don't know which flavor she's ordered for you, there are different ones e.g., with tuna, chicken and vegetable stew, etc. Darcy liked most of them. The Royal Canin kidney diets were also some of the ones he liked (the E for enticing one, as I recall.) The new Weruva Wx foods come in a lot of different flavors and are designed specifically to be ultra low in phosphorus (to spare the kidneys) and very low in carbs. Of course, they are high protein. Do you happen to know what his phosphorus level was? Also, his Creatinine? Had that also increased? The most important thing at this stage is probably to keep phosphorus under control (the food will help) and to keep him hydrated. Did your vet recommend giving him sub-q fluids at all? Or is she holding off on that until later? I did look at Spike's spreadsheet yesterday when I wrote to you. It's nice to see those blues on there for the last three nights. Good job on catching those tests. I'm attaching a link to a food chart for therapeutic kidney foods, which lists carbs, phosphorus, calories, etc.

It's good to hear from you! Try not to be a stranger :)

http://felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm#therapeutic_kidney_foods
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I've updated the LAB Tab on Spikes SS.
BUN is 63.5
Creatinine is 2.4
BUN/Creatinine Ration is 26.5
Phosphorus is 7.3

All is recorded on LAB TAB along with a years worth of data from all his previous lab work.

This is all so overwhelming for me, especially when vet said he needs the k/d food, but it'll bs Monday b4 it arrives at her office. No pet stores have it as it's prescription. She did say that it was OK for his urinary tract and wouldn't cause bladder stones. Me and spike don't want to go through that again.

If you know of any foods that I can pick up tomorrow afternoon from Petsense, Petco, or PetSmart, I can at least get something with less Phosphorus than the Purina ProPlan UTH that he's been eating. Kinda socks because I just bought 2 cases of the proplan UTH in salmon and the beef&chicken flavors 2 days b4 the vet visit. The vet said that the salmon would be alright until the hill science diet k/d arrives. I called her today, but hadn't arrived yet.

I'll start a new thread as this ones getting long.

I've missed you and Melissa and my workdays have been getting the best of me. I do rush home to spike and the kitties which also keep me hopping around here. Spike has taken to sleeping with me and hanging close to me (sitting on bed with me right now) and I just pray that he isn't feeling bad...I think it's just cold this winter here and he wa to to cuddle.

What I'm saying, is PLEASE HELP ME and help me think through with a plan for Spike where I can control his carbs AND fight this CKD.

Thank You...and please hold my hand with this new challenge.
@Suzanne & Darcy @FrostD
 
Suzanne knows best with CKD! I can only parrot back what I've read elsewhere. That phos is high, I do believe you should be using a binder at this point (above 6).

Unfortunately the diabetes and CKD are intertwined. Most people will say at this stage treat diabetes first as it's additional stress on the kidneys...but we also have to be realistic about life, schedule, cat lol

I know Suzanne will correct me if I'm off target, but in stage 2 I think you should still try to prioritize low carb low phos foods, I see she put the link above. That whole website is a godsend actually. I wouldn't be too worried about just 3 days worth of the old food, but if it's bothering you then take a look at the list she gave to see what may be near you.

Just know that as CKD progresses, it does do wonky things to numbers. Adding higher carb doubly so. I really would push for Lantus at this point, as he's already wonky enough. More steady curves will also help ease the load in his kidneys...plus you should be able to get the generic for the same or less than what you're paying for ProZinc.

Suzanne will also know better about fluids. If you do those, you just have to watch timing and location of insulin vs fluids
 
FrostD said:
Suzanne knows best with CKD! I can only parrot back what I've read elsewhere. That phos is high, I do believe you should be using a binder at this point (above 6).

Unfortunately the diabetes and CKD are intertwined. Most people will say at this stage treat diabetes first as it's additional stress on the kidneys...but we also have to be realistic about life, schedule, cat lol

I know Suzanne will correct me if I'm off target, but in stage 2 I think you should still try to prioritize low carb low phos foods, I see she put the link above. That whole website is a godsend actually. I wouldn't be too worried about just 3 days worth of the old food, but if it's bothering you then take a look at the list she gave to see what may be near you.

Just know that as CKD progresses, it does do wonky things to numbers. Adding higher carb doubly so. I really would push for Lantus at this point, as he's already wonky enough. More steady curves will also help ease the load in his kidneys...plus you should be able to get the generic for the same or less than what you're paying for ProZinc.

Suzanne will also know better about fluids. If you do those, you just have to watch timing and location of insulin vs fluids
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The vet actually said that she didn't think it was time for sub-q fluids yet. Surely, there is a low carb AND low phosphorus food out there....gosh, this is so stressful.
 
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