So worried.... Kitty walking on wrist :(

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MOS

Member Since 2014
Hi everyone, I’m sorry my post is so long but I figured it would be best to just write a full rundown of events…… My 13 year old cat was diagnosed with pancreatitis and diabetes around the first of September. Her bg was something like 328. She had some hair/skin issues, no energy, was peeing a lot, and started just lying beside the water bowl. She ate like she was starving; she wanted to eat all the time! She had gotten to 12 pounds but I had been trying to switch her to wet food and she had lost down to 11 + ounces. She loves kibble. Even with the pancreatitis, at this point her appetite was not affected; she was eating like always. They put her on Lantus every 12 hours. These were her numbers after the first week on 1 unit of insulin on 9/12/14: 8am - insulin, 10:40 – 202, 2pm – 212, 4pm – 234, 7pm – 271. They moved it to 1.5 units. She still had no energy; she would go a few feet then lay down. Toward the end of September she slowed down on her food and water, and developed an apparent diabetic neuropathy. She started limping on her right front leg on 9/21/14. She is now having to walk on her wrist. Besides that, she acted sicker. I tried a vitamin B-12 pill because I had read of the benefits in cats with her symptoms but it made her sicker, she just threw it up. Friday and Saturday, 9/26 and 9/27 she did not eat anything during the day. She ate a few bites of kibble those nights. Her sugar stayed low while she was barely eating so they advised not to give insulin. They redone blood and urine tests and also did x-rays on that Friday 9/26 when she was the sickest. They did not find anything else. They had to give her Prednisolone just to get her eating. I started it on 9/27. She got down to 10 pounds + ounces. She started eating a little better, but nothing like she was. Her sugar was not too high while she wasn’t eating; it was 154 on 9/29. On Thursday 10/2, her sugar went back up to 334 so I started her 1.5 U of Lantus insulin back. Even with the evening insulin shot, she drank water all Thursday night. Friday 10/3 she seemed to feel worse and she ate less again. She also went back to lying beside the water bowl a lot. I gave her 1.5 units at 7:30am Friday and at 11:30am her bg was 225. I worried the Pred was making her sugar higher. I talked to the vet Friday night, but her concern was more for the not eating. We agreed to skip the Pred and see if she would eat Saturday morning. She ate well that Saturday 10/4 morning without the Pred but she was still extremely thirsty. Also, besides lying beside the water, she added lying in the litter box! She was peeing and pooping ok, so I didn’t understand that. I can’t understand why she got sicker again since we were working on the diabetes, even if it’s not managed yet? Is it the pancreatitis? Why did it come back this fast and worse than the first time? Well, she continued to eat so I never had to give her anymore of the Pred. But, her sugar has continued to rise. Thus my next chapter of extreme confusion....
She still has no energy; she can still only go a short distance without lying down. Also, her front left wrist seems to be weakening too. She is still eating well. But, her belly rumbles and she has bad gas. This never happened before she became sick. I started her on Purina DM dry when she stopped eating. She had been eating Purina One dry before all this started, but I figured if I had to feed her dry to get her to eat, get the one with lower carbs. She loves dry and has kinda over eaten that stuff lately; about 4 ounces a day plus Fancy Feast wet! She’s back to almost 12 pounds. I’m going to try again to wean here back off the dry if she will continue to eat the canned fancy feast. I only gave here 1.5 ounces of dry yesterday 10/23 and she was happy with the canned. I’m going to list some dates and BG #s below. I’m still not the greatest at checking BGs. She will tolerate spot checks, but my attempt at a curve annoyed her. Here is what confuses me the most right now: Every time they bump the Lantus dosage up, her BGs go up! I don’t understand that? If the dose wasn’t high enough, looks like we would see either no change, or tiny improvements with an increase. What could be going on!? Please, do any of you guys have any ideas, advice, or similar experiences? I would appreciate any help you can give me. Am I not doing enough? Or, am I not doing the right things? I’m so worried and so confused. We’ve been at this for two months and we have higher BGs now with treatment than we did when we started. I don’t know what to do. :(
I give her shots around 8am and 8pm nowadays. Here are some Lantus dosages and BGs over the last month through the increases:
10/5 – 7PM: BG 302 then 1.5 U (we had a vet visit 2 days later and went up to 2 U but I can’t remember the BG)
10/12 – home tests - 8AM: BG 288 then 2 U; 10AM: BG 320; 1PM: BG 337; 8PM: 2 U
10/17 – Raised to 3 U because of excessive water drinking and huge pees.
10/22 – vet curve - 8AM: given 3 U; 10AM: BG 326; 1:30PM: BG345; 4:30PM: BG 353; 8PM: 4 U
10/23 – this one may not count because I didn’t give the 4 U a few days to “settle” but I was curious…. and now even more worried because it’s the highest value I’ve seen with her so far: 8AM: 4 U; 8PM: BG 383 then 4 U
Thank you so much!
 
Hi

As a newbie I can't give too much help re the blood glucose levels but it seems to me that things just need more time to settle down.

My remi was diagnosed a month ago and I have been slowly getting his BG slowly under control. It takes time though to get the BG levels more steady and even longer to see improvements in his strength. Even today I realised he was still having issues jumping onto the bed. So I think maybe you are expecting to things to happen quicker than they will but once you can settle down the blood glucose fluctuations then things will steadily improve. You can get the vitamin b injection at the vet.

With regards the blood glucose levels and dose have you read the stickies about lantus in the tight regulation section. Here is a great one to start with: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18139

This one explains about the lantus insulin deposit viewtopic.php?f=9&t=150

This one on how to handle and store lantus properly viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

In order for members to comment on your figures more easily and for you to be able to track your own readings it would be great if you could start your own spreadsheet and link it in your signature. He is the thread that explains how to do it:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50130

It is great that you are trying to switch to wet food. Have you seen the advice from website of dr Pierson http://www.catinfo.org she explains about how to transition cats over to wet and has some great hints and tips.

Whenever you up the dose of lantus you will find that blood glucose levels take a few days to settle and can go up for a while but she could also be bouncing if the lantus lowers her blood glucose to a level that her body isn't used to then it over compensate for it. But as I said other people can help you with that far more than I can.

I would say don't get disheartened, you have made a great start. Don't change food suddenly, do it slowly over a number of days. If she still isn't eating then ask the vet about trying ondanestron (anti nausea med) or if she begins vomiting then cerenia. As long as she is eating and you can monitor her then keep up with the lantus injections every twelve hours. If you change the lantus dose then do it in small increments of 0.25 or 0.5 and finally join one of the lantus groups on here either tight regulation or relaxed lantus.

Best wishes

Sarah
 
Sometimes, dose increases with a depot insulin (Lantus or Levemir), results in "New Dose Wonkiness", ie unexpected odd readings.

See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for tips on urine ketone testing. While she is in hi numbers, she could develop diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), a potentially fatal, expensive to treat complication of diabetes.

Lantus has a carry over effect - each dose slightly overlaps the effects of the next. It takes 3 to 5 days for this stabilize it works best to shoot the same dose as close to 12 hours apart as possible. Normally, you need to wait a minimum of 3 days before adjusting the dose.
 
Thank you guys, I'll check out all the links and build her a spreadsheet. I've read about the NDW on here, and the vet always leaves her on a dose for a week before moving her up. But, at the end of those weeks, and before we move, we are not only still too high, but we are higher than we were at the last adjustment! The numbers were better in that first month with lower dosages. I'm wondering if I should try a new bottle? I've kept it in the refrigerator but that constant rise in overall numbers just seems bizarre.
 
HI MOS and welcome,

My Saoirse has pancreatitis, too. Sarah has already recommended some good anti-nausea meds. If your cat's appetite fluctuates, cyproheptadine is a very effective appetite stimulant and may also help a little with stomach acid. Famotidine is good for stomach acid. Perhaps you can ask your vet about them. Here are the IDEXX Laboratories treatment recommendations for feline pancreatitis. (Lots of information about the right medications to help your cat.)

I'm a novice as well, but my Saoirse is on Lantus and I'm of the same opinion as Sarah in that you may be increasing the Lantus dose in too large increments. The Tight Regulation protocol stipulates dose adjustments of 0.25 - 0.5 units, depending on whether the cat is on a low or high dose of insulin. To the best of my understanding, if you increase the dose in increments that are too large you may miss the optimal dose for your cat and end up giving too much insulin (which can look like too little, since both may result in high numbers). I'd suggest posting in the Tight Regulation forum as a starting point. It's a much busier board than Feline Health, and there are many very experienced members there who will be able to help you. Sarah has already given you some useful links to TR board sticky posts where you can learn more about Lantus and the Tight Regulation protocol itself.

With regard to the diabetic neuropathy, I concur with Sarah's recommendation about asking your vet for a course of B12 injections. Saoirse has had them and they really helped her.

At the higher numbers, you need to test for ketones in your cat's urine. If it has been a while since you last had your cat's ketones checked, I'd recommend doing so as a priority. To test at home, many people here use Ketodiastix test strips. If you see trace ketones then you should let your vet know and get advice on what to do next. Anything more than a trace of ketones and you should seek immediate veterinary assistance.

It's great that you're home testing: many caregivers of diabetics don't test at all. It really helps if you make it as positive an experience as possible for your cat. A confident attitude (faked if necessary!) plus lots of reassuring talk and praise help, but freeze-dried protein treats (i.e. bribes) can help w-a-y more! :smile:

Things are very scary, confusing and overwhelming at the start - doubly so when our little ones are so poorly - but things do get better as you learn more. You've found a great place to get information and support to help you help your little girl. The toughest part is that the Lantus treatment takes patience.
 
Thank you! I went and bought some of those strips earlier after looking around on the board. Checking ketones has not been mentioned to me yet during vet visits.
Maybe we did miss an optimal dose by jumping whole units, but it was under veterinary advice? I think I should go in search of that maybe missed sweet spot! But where could it be? I feel like Lantus is a master of eluding me...
 
It might be an idea to print off a copy of the TR protocol document to show to your vets. It contains tables with comprehensive instructions for Lantus dose adjustments. Some vets are more switched on to FD than others. The experienced members on the TR board will be able to give you more of a steer on finding the right dosage.

I forgot to mention above that with Lantus it helps to feed your cat mini meals throughout the day (lifting the food 2 hours before pre-injection tests to avoid the numbers being influenced by food), and that holds even more true when dealing with pancreatitis alongside the diabetes.

BTW, what's your pusscat's name? I'm really sorry to hear that she's so poorly at the moment. cat_pet_icon
 
I am concerned about your statement that he is "walking on wrist". I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is he curling his front feet back so that the tops are on the floor?

Postures like this can mean low potassium. So if your kitty was urinating a lot potassium could have been washed out of the system. Please have your vet check the potassium level and give a supplement if necessary. It is important to get the entire system in balance to get the diabetes under control.

If possible snap a photo with your phone to show this posture to your vet. You could be dealing with more than one health issue here.

Anita and Squeaker
 
How much are you increasing the dose each time? If by whole units, you may have passed over the optimal dose and now fighting compensatory hormones that are trying to keep your cat alive despite too much insulin.
 
Hi CritterMom, can you help me find that TR protocol document? Thank you! My baby's name is Scorchie. :)
Hey Anita & Squeaker, I've seen where the posture was caused from low potassium in my endless internet searches. Hers is normal.... They've checked everything. I bug them weekly at the least. There for a while it was daily! At first, we were at the vet several times a week! I went three times in a row as I watched that wrist get worse trying to get them to figure out what was going on...They weren't sure. Although it usually affects back legs, I think they've assumed it's from the diabetes.... I don't kno if they are 100% sure tho. I'll try to get a pic. I ask the vet if it would cause pain. Apparently it can bend like this alright but she did mention that long term use on it could cause joint problems like arthritis.
Yeah BJM, I'm worried that's exactly what has happened. That seems to make the most since to me.... Why else would BGs increase with increased insulin dosages!? I'm gonna make sure we tackle the issue; I spoke with her doc today about this! I also got a fresh bottle of Lantus just in case! I'll keep you guys posted with the results!
 
It'll help if you add some details to your signature. These let us give you better feedback.

Go to the top left of the screen.
Click on User Control Panel.
Click on Profile
Click on Edit Signature
A text box displays.
This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet.
Add any other text, such as
your name, cat's name,
city and state,
date of Dx (diagnosis)
insulin
meter - put it in BOLD if it is an AlphaTrak
any other pertinent issues like food issues, allergies, IBD, etc.
 
Hey everyone, our pre-PM shot BG was 254 on just 0.5 U Lantus! Much better; that makes more sense! :D She's moving around a little bit more as well. I haven't been able to get a pic of that wrist yet. It only flattens with the weight of walking; my camera can't catch it. When she sits, it doesn't bow much. She still uses it for bathing so it must not be too painful yet. My newest concern is sneezing, she's been sneezing a lot the last couple of days. Only a little clear discharge after a big sneeze, none noticed any other time....
 
Hey BJM, no it's not her hocks. Her back legs are still good. I think that's what is so perplexing to the vets. It's her front wrist; that second bend up where the carpel pad is located. I'm going to do my best to get a video today of her walking because I just can't catch a still shot. I think it would be better for everyone to be able to see how she is walking anyway.
 
Hi all, I got a pic of her sitting which shows where it bends. I rub her leg and foot everyday to make sure it's not sore. She seems to like it; she stretches it out for me when I do. I've looked at it everyday since this started. She saw three different vets when it started because her regular doc was out the first two times! Nobody could find anything visibly wrong. It doesn't hurt her because she still jumps on and off of things and does not try to be easy on it at all!
 
Methylcobalamin or methyl B-12, will not hurt to try. It is a water-soluble vitamin. If it isn't needed, the body excretes it through the kidneys.
 
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