? Sienne/Libby? Smokey 5/19, AM 483, PM 268 (decrease)

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Re: Smokey 5/19, AMPS 483, PMPS 268 (decrease)

Smokey said:
Hi everyone!

I decreased Smokey's dose tonight from 2.0 (skinny) to 1.5. He seemed to have very high bounce, then a very low one every 3-4 days so this may or may not help...I just don't know anymore! I'm on information overload and it's like my brain has just quit on me! :shock: :o :lol:

Your thoughts :?:

Yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43585
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Hi Denne,

Why'd ya do that for? Doesn't look to me like Smokey needed a decrease. From the mom of a cat who is just about the bounciest cat in the world...he's bouncing because he isn't used to lower numbers, there's other stuff going on with him, and his dose may not be correct yet. Look at all those pinks and reds. He had a great day yesterday but his body doesn't know it so he's going to bounce (his liver and liver training school and all that which I'm not good at at explaining but I'm sure you've heard. The liver is not comfortable with low numbers right now and over compensates by spilling out more glucose......ie bounce .)

You need to sit through the bounces....

I am still puzzled about why you lowered the dose. To me it looks like Smokey could use a little more insulin. I AM NOT ADVISING YOU TO GIVE HIM MORE...please be clear about that. But the 2.0 looks like it was just starting to make a dent. I would go back to that next dose if I were you..and stay there for a couple of days and then reassess(sp)? what Smokey might need... If it was me. :razz:
 
Re: Smokey 5/19, AMPS 483, PMPS 268 (decrease)

Oh gosh now I'm so confused! I had been told that Smokey kept bouncing because I may be giving him too much insulin and that his 40 scores prove that so I should consider decreasing his dose. I'll attention this to Sienne and Libby and see what they say... Ahhh, now I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight!!

Either way, thanks so much for stopping by!! Good to talk to you again!
 
here's the great thing - you're gonna get another chance tomorrow to do this again! sleep well tonight - things will work out. you just get back on track and smokey will do just fine.
 
it's really impossible to say for sure whether a dose is too much or too little without some spot checks. There are indications on Smokey's spreadsheet that it might be too much (like having 40s at preshot, though that was a while ago now). The reason it is frustrating to figure out his patterns is because there isn't enough data, so you're just guessing.

Is it possible to start getting at least a before bed test every night? That one test can yield a ton of information. Then add tests whenever you can at other times - if you walk in the door at +11, test. If you're leaving at +1, get a test sometimes. Home between errands on a Saturday afternoon? Grab a test. Eventually your spreadsheet will start to fill in and it will become much easier to see patterns.

Normally we only reduce by 0.25 units at a time when we do reductions. How about trying 1.75, and grabbing those before bed tests each night?
 
Thanks guys!!! I will start getting some here and there like you suggested. I just tested at +4 tonight and got 241. I will go to 1.75 in the morning tomorrow and we will see!
 
Smokey said:
Thanks guys!!! I will start getting some here and there like you suggested. I just tested at +4 tonight and got 241. I will go to 1.75 in the morning tomorrow and we will see!
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Good..and keep it there for at least 6 cycles so that Smokey's body can settle in to the dose. It's hard to say what dose is good when a cat is bouncing or whether it's the dose or the bounce that's causing the high and/or the low numbers. As everyone has said to you, you don't have enough data to know how Smokey is going to react to dose changes. You could look at my ss and say "you're one to talk"...
but I have been testing Alex at leasy 7 or 8 tomes a day since 9/2009 and I do know what .25 here or there is going to do...and where he usually is at+7,+8,+11;etc. You have to know that stuff before you can eve try to guess what is causing what..and even then it's difficult.

If you can't spot check during the day at least try at night and weekends....again, as everyone has said..you'll learn a lot(unless Smokey has been talking to Alex...then it might take quite a while) :roll: :lol:
 
Hi,

I'm an old timer and a lucky one at that. My kitty has been OTJ for over a year. But I wanted to send you a few words of encouragement. I know it feels confusing and as if you'll never figure it out. But everyone was there once and it smooths out before long. You just have to collect a lot of data, be patient and diligent. That's not a guarantee your kitty will end up OTJ by any means. But it is the only road to get you there if it is going to happen.

Best of luck!
 
Deene, I am pretty new here so I can't give much sound advice. However, I did want to say that my vet said the same thing. When Tarragon would bounce, she said he was getting too much insulin and would want me to back off a lot on the dose and it just wasn't getting any better. I have a great vet, but she is dealing with such a broad spectrum of owner participation that I think she was worried about low numbers. A lot of her owners are elderly and don't do home testing. In that case, she is thinking that any bounce could be fatal if it dips too low in the couple of weeks between the vet BGC. We do home testing, so we are able to monitor it and see what is going on on a daily - or even hourly - basis if needed.

I don't know if this helps, but I do know where you are coming from. I was scared to death to go against what my vet suggested until I found this board. Good luck and just keep asking a lot of questions!
 
Thanks everyone! My vet didn't suggest that I do the decrease (he doesn't even know)... other members of the board had suggested it to me :-D

My vet is there for support but understands that I'm a member of this board and he is open to me suggesting or trying different things.

Question:
Do high numbers cause low bounces OR do low bounces cause high numbers? It seems like this would be the same question but, if you think about it, it really isn't. The answer to this may help me to decide if he is bouncing like a tennis ball because he is receiving too little insulin or if he is receivng too much insulin.

Thanks again kitty lovers!
D.~
 
Hi Denne,
I think it's your terminology that is confusing you! A "bounce" is always UP. A cat will bounce if he gets an unaccustomed low number. His liver will interpret that low number as "dangerous" and he will bounce up to a high number to compensate. We refer to "Liver-training school" when we say that the cat's liver has to be "trained" to regard lower numbers as "normal". When he gets lower numbers on a more regular basis, his liver will accept them and he will not bounce so high.

What you are calling a "low bounce" is really a "drop". A drop is always DOWN. A drop can be caused by too much insulin, but there are many other factors involved (foods, timing of feeding, medications, etc. etc.). Sharp drops to unusually low numbers (for your cat) are cause for action: this is when we feed HC gravy and have to monitor/test frequently.

In short, a "bounce" is a normal part of getting regulated and a bounce to high numbers is unnerving, but not particularly dangerous. In general, we wait out bounces. It's the "drop" that has to be paid attention to.

Hope this helps!

Ella & Rusty
 
Okay Thanks Ella! That really clarifys it for me.

His Fructosomine score (on 2 units) was 251 a week ago and that was on the, "Low but completely acceptable range" according to my vet. This makes me think that maybe I should keep him on 2 units? I was also surprised with this great number, I was thinking he was going to be in the 400's like he was previous times (which would have meant he was extremely un-regulated).

I guess the bounces even up to the very high 400's and then it seems like every 3-5 days later the drops (lows) occurs and I get scared. He had been on 2 units for almost 2 months (with a few exceptions here and there).

Something just tells me that with the amount of water he is drinking that something just isn't right. When he is in the 200's his water intake is terrific, then it seems anything over that and he drinks almost a whole cereal bowl of water each day. He isn't washing his body either and gets greasy fast after a bath.

Are bounces and drops bad for your kitty?
 
Smokey said:
Okay Thanks Ella! That really clarifys it for me.

His Fructosomine score (on 2 units) was 251 a week ago and that was on the, "Low but completely acceptable range" according to my vet. This makes me think that maybe I should keep him on 2 units? I was also surprised with this great number, I was thinking he was going to be in the 400's like he was previous times (which would have meant he was extremely un-regulated).

I guess the bounces even up to the very high 400's and then it seems like every 3-5 days later the drops (lows) occurs and I get scared. He had been on 2 units for almost 2 months (with a few exceptions here and there).

Something just tells me that with the amount of water he is drinking that something just isn't right. When he is in the 200's his water intake is terrific, then it seems anything over that and he drinks almost a whole cereal bowl of water each day. He isn't washing his body either and gets greasy fast aft a bath.

Are bounces and drops bad for your kitty?
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Iii

They are part of diabetes. They are the toughest part of diabetes. That's why diabetes is so difficult to regulate ... For people too. Yes they are bad for anyone. I tend to get low blood sugar every now and then and it feels awful. I can only imagine what it feels like to go up and down every day. Will they kill Smokey? Either can if not taken care of but you home test so you don't have to worry about that, btw.... Are u ketone testing yet?
 
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