Shooting advice Ozy AMPS-99

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donaleen and Ozy

Member Since 2013
Ozy's number have been in the 300's a lot these past few days. Last night I tested every hour in case he was rebounding. His glucose stayed high until very late in the cycle and is now at 96. What do I do about insulin? I am afraid to shoot without advice.

thanks
donaleen
 
When at 96? Your SS shows 97 for this morning PS and you gave the regular 3 units. I would have never given three units based on your history and a PS of 97.
As far as tonight's dose I have to wait for this evening PS.
Also, anything different about last evening/night? That is what is strange with a AMPS of 97
 
Nothing different... yesterday he seemed really tired and I think his pancreatitis was kicking up a bit. His numbers had been high and flat. I wanted to be sure there wasn't a secret dip I was missing so I tested him every hour, last cycle and am continuing with this cycle. I slept through the +11 cycle but I got all the rest. Too bad I missed the +11.

At what would have been AMPS, I got a 97 reading and asked for dosing advice. Then, I tested him every 20 minutes for an hour and a half. He stayed pretty much at around 100 (97, 96, 106,92, 99) . I hadn't gotten any advice so I read and re-read what I could find on the site and it said to shoot even though the number was a bit low. It didn't say to adjust the dose. So I shot at 99 an hour and a half later than normal. I've read that a late shot is a reduced dose.

I am finding the rules hard to understand and therefore hard to follow. I would appreciate eyes on his numbers today. I will continue to test every hour this cycle.

He seems good today. Hungry. Alert. Playful. Some days are not so good. He has been better generally since starting the insulin.

Larry, what would you have done? Skipped the dose? Given a reduced dose?


thanks
donaleen
 
If you are home to monitor and have supplies, I see nothing wrong with giving a full dose on that pre-shot. It took me a while to be comfortable shooting a low number, but that was more because I was out of the house for 11 hours a day and wanted to start shooting lower numbers only when I was home to monitor.

There is so much great info here that it can be totally overwhelming!

Here is the info on what to do for a low pre-shot from a sticky over on the TR ISG on Handling Low Numbers:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

I'm not an advisor, but it looks to me like Ozy cleared a bounce (that high PMPS last night) and slid down to that nice AMPS. He'll probably bounce again so I would wait until that bounce clears to evaluate the dose.
 
Thanks, Nikki. I did find exactly what you quoted and that convinced me to shoot. The only thing is, he doesn't seem to have a pattern. Not yet anyway. I don't know if the pancreatitis makes his numbers wonky or if his dose is now a little high. I just don't know. He started to look so good at 2.5 and then it all seemed to come apart...

That drop this morning doesn't make sense to me.
 
I think I would have shot too - the key to lantus is consistency and since you were around to test, then you are ok to shoot low - as long as you have plenty of syrup and strips just in case!

At quick glance I dont see a reason to change dose tonite - he didnt earn a reduction by going under 50. However I would hold this dose now the full 10 cycles to see how it works before considering another increase as per the protocol.Unless he drops under 50. (below)

Are you posting regularly on the tight regulation forum?

Wendy

General" Guidelines:
Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 consecutive cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles).
Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).
Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.

Increasing the dose:
Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

Reducing the dose:
If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further. If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose.
 
I was posting on the TR forum... I didn't post a condo yesterday or today. Yesterday I decided to back off a little on the reporting and testing and condo-ing... I wanted a day off.

I had intended to do an hourly tests for two cycles later in the week but his numbers and a change in our plans made me decide to start last night. I was concerned that his numbers were high and flat. I googled "cat blood sugar high flat readings" and found this article which made me be concerned about missing a quick dip in his cycle (rebound, Somogyi effect). I didn't know that it could be that difficult to detect it was going on.

http://www.defeatdiabetes.org/about_diabetes/text.asp?id=PetDiabetes_CatsDogs

Also, I find posting a question and waiting for the answer stressful... I keep checking back and checking back in case the person asked me something to respond to. It's even more stressful when it's a dosage question. I wish I got an email when there is a response to my posts....
 
You can! See down below the blue bar at the bottom says "subscribe topic" and click on it. You will get an email when someone responds. Also you can start sending PMs to people like me deb, etc when you need urgent help to draw our attention to it..
 
Oh and I don't think it's somogyi either. With somogyi you see sudden drops to low green (very low ie under 50) then fast increases to high red and black or even HI.

If anything you haven't reached the right dose yet.
 
Wow, Wendy. You just made my life SOOOO much better. I looked for that feature. How did I miss it? Hmmmm..

And thank you for the opinion that we are still on the way to a dose. I also like your idea of holding this dose for ten cycles. I am not ready for a change. And you have eased my mind on all fronts. Thank you so much.

donaleen
 
Yes, if you need an answer and are not getting a response and it is getting close to time to shoot, please PM me. The message board gets so busy, it takes time to get around to people that need help. If I know you need an answer sooner, rather than later, I'll try to pop over.

I'm not always on. Can't spend much time here when I'm at work. But when I am here, I'd be happy to look at your post if you alert me by PM.
 
Thanks Deb and Wendy. That makes me feel safer and more comfortable.

I did not get notice of this reply even though I turned on notify...

and I checked my spam. not there either.
 
People have been having issues with the email notification feature ever since we switched to a new server about 6 weeks ago.

Check your junk mail box. Some people said it went there, spam filters caught it.
 
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