Shanti not wanting to eat again-"New" Seems normal

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Shantismom

Member Since 2014
This morning I posted that Shanti was not wanting to eat, his amp was 303 and he ate a little. I ended up giving him 1.5 units. He was at previouly 3 units but I have been cutting him back because he had a low number yesterday., had about 2units the two times before this. I posted his numbers earlier under,
Stalling, Shanti won't eat. He saw the vet and when we came home he ate quite a bit but that is now close to 8 hours ago. I tried his dried chicken on top but he still isn't interested. I have some Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers that is for our other cat, should I try that just to get him to eat. His pmp a little while ago was 324. I am at a loss at what to do.
He ate a very small amount just now about what he could get from the dried chicken on top.
Any suggestions?
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

I am sorry no one is responding to your posts. I am not usually not on here at night, but at this time I would offer him anything he wants to eat since you gave his shot already whatever that is, gravy food. He needs to eat.
If you have to try finger feeding him a little bit if you can, Like I said he needs to eat something.

Terri
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

I did give him some food, he ate some, not really that interested. Maybe I shouldn't have given him any insulin but I didn't know what to do as his number was 324 and that is high. I will keep seeing if I can get him to eat the fancy feast, high carbs and all.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

As I said offer whatever you can. Main thing he needs to eat since he has had his shot. Can you test him and see where is glucose is?

Terri
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Hi Marlene,

I spotted your post and retrieved the numbers from your earlier thread:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=125327

For the past few days Shanti has had high numbers.

9/11 AMP 263 +5 221 PMP 286 Both he had 3 units
9/12 AMP 319 +6 450 PMP 326 Went under 3 units about 2.8 incase of bounce
9/13 AMP 267 under 3 units both shots no ther tests
9/14 AMP 145 gave under 2 units
+ 4 222
+8 342
+12 330 Gave 2 units again

Today AMP 303 no shot yet, he is not eating. Wonder about 1 units - 1.5, no no shot
Click to expand...

To attract more attention to this thread, can I suggest that you go back and edit the first post you made in this thread, click Edit, set the Post icon to a star or question mark then click on Submit. That way other members will know that you need a little more help.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

i'm looking at your story - it's going to take me a minute.

some things that work to get a kitty to eat:

- heat up the food a little bit - warmer smells more and can be more enticing
- make little meatballs on the plate
- put a little on your finger and put it in Shanti's mouth - kind of like "priming the pump" sometimes a taste will encourage a little more.
- sprinkle on one of these yummy things: parmesan cheese, oregano (related to catnip), catnip, freeze dried meat, canned tuna juice (check ingredients - no onions/garlic), fortiflora (if you have it), or a little pulverized dry kitty food
- rotisserie chicken is pretty irresistible for many cats
- put little dots of another yummy cat food on top
- open a new can of food, different flavor , or 3!

if you haven't tried those, give them a try. let me go look at your other posts. i'll be back.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

I posted for help over on the Lantus board for you as they know the most about this insulin. So I am hoping someone comes over from there to help. It has much more traffic than this board.

Terri
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Oh Lord, Julie helped me when first came here so I am leaving it to her.

Terri
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

what did the vet give Shanti the Baytril for? Was that vet visit today? so he had the appetite stimulant this morning - do i have the timing right?

Sounds like you have learned how to hometest, is that right?

How many hours ago did you give him his shot?

I can stay with her and help figure out what's next, Terri. :-D glad you've been helping Marlene!

edited to add: i see you're offline now. I'll check back in a few minutes to see if you've had a chance to answer.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

I was in the same situation like you few days ago. What I did was I let my kitty eat on the palm of my hand and I keep doing it every 30 mins. And also I gave any food what he like. He needs to eat even dry food.

Sending you purrs and prayer

Rosie
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Because her glucose is high, giving some insulin is the right thing to do. It should help drop the level some and that may provoke some appetite.

A note on antibiotics: they can cause GI upset. This may be offset by using a probiotic such as FortiFlora, Intelliflora, and so on, which help replenish the good bacteria which get killed off by the broad-spectrum antibiotic.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

by the way, marlene, i'd suggest you keep posting on this thread for now so that we keep all the info and advice in one spot.

at whatever point you check in again, would you count how many hours since the shot and if at all possible, get a blood sugar test so we can see what he's doing. Because of the way Lantus works, it helps to have the blood sugar #s in the context of how many hours after the shot was given. that's why i'm asking for the time.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Got him to eat some Fancy Feast Turkey from my hand also ate a freeze dried chicken treat and a few tuna treat that are for the other cat.
He takes a probiotic in his food in the morning but of course this morning he wasn't eating very well. I think he ate up the food with the probiotic when he came home from the vet. All of this was today.
Not sure what the Baytril is for, he had a slightly elevated temperature, but still within normal range.
I offered him some dry food but he never did like it that much, it is for the other cat as is the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers which Shanti is now getting.
He usually eats Natural Balance venison, always seems to like it but not today.

About half the can of the turkey food is gone but some small amount still in dish waiting to be fed to him.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Can you get any play behavior from him? That may prompt some eating behavior, too.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

His BG was 321 at +1.5. Since then a little more food. Shot was delayed and given at 8:20 Eastern time.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

i think if you can keep getting him to nibble throughout this evening, he's going to be fine.

I'd want to know what the antibiotic was given for. Pancreatitis is very common in diabetic cats - it can make them feel crappy and lose their appetite. It doesn't respond to antibiotics though - and they can add their own problems by causing diarrhea. If it isn't needed, i wouldn't want to give it. Here is a great link on Pancreatitis that has the most up to date information in it. Take a look there and see if it describes what you see happening in Shanti. If so, you need a different treatment protocol instead of antibiotics. Pain control, sub-q fluids and something to address nausea or vomiting are cornerstones for pancreatitis.

the trouble with giving an appy-stimulant without addressing nausea, if it's there, is that it's like having the flu, not wanting to eat, but being so hungry you have to. A gross situation.

Also, I would double-check on the dose for the Baytril. It's a powerful antibiotic and cat's doses are very specific - too high of a dose can cause blindness in cats. Is it liquid? I had it compounded fo Punkin one time and only got one dose into him - he walked around foaming at the mouth and vomiting every few feet. Apparently the foaming at the mouth immediately after getting it is from the bad taste.

How much does Shanti weigh?

Here's a link to the Baytril dosage http://www.animalhealth.bayer.com/5176.0.html
Summary: International Baytril Formulations

BaytrilÒ is available in three different tablet strengths and as injectable solution. This allows the veterinarian to start treatment with an injection and dispense Baytril tablets to the pet owner for follow-up treatment at home.

In general Baytril is given to cats and dogs at 5 mg/kg b.w. once daily for 5 – 10 consecutive days.

Recent findings suggest that once daily application of the total daily dose maximises the success of Baytril therapy.
This regimen also offers more convenience to the animal owner and significantly increases therapeutic compliance.

For more details please consult your local product information.

Summary: US Baytril Formulations

Baytril is available as BaytrilÒ Taste TabsTM in different strenghts with flavouring enhancement, and as coated tablets without flavour. An injectable solution is also available. BaytrilÒ Otic is a combination of enrofloxacin and silver sulfadiazine registered for the treatment of canine otitis externa complicated by bacterial and fungal organisms.

Baytril tablets are given to dogs at a dose of 5 – 20 mg/kg b.w., preferably once daily. This gives the veterinarian the possibility to adapt the therapeutic dose within this range to the severity of the disease and susceptibility of the pathogen.
In cats BaytrilÒ tablets are dosed at 5 mg/kg b.w., preferably once daily.

Duration of treatment in dogs and cats should be based on clinical evidence. In general administration of Baytril tablets should continue for at least 2 – 3 days beyond cessation of clinical signs. For severe and complicated infections, more extended intervals of treatment (up to 30 days) may be necessary.

For more details please consult the Bayer Corporation Baytril companion animal website.

Detailed information:

Depending on the local registration in different countries, free choice has been left to the user in the past, to administer the entire daily dose of Baytril once a day (SID), or divide it into two applications (BID).

Recent findings suggest that it is the total dose of enrofloxacin and not the dosing frequency that is significant in determining drug efficacy and therapeutic success (4). It has been concluded that Baytril, like other fluoroquinolones, exhibits concentration-dependent killing activity against Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens relevant for small animal practice (4), (5). Maintaining sufficient drug concentrations above the MIC of the pathogen during the entire treatment interval, which is necessary for anti-infectives with time-dependent antibacterial activity (beta-lactams), is of minor importance for the fluoroquinolones (4). Goal of Baytril therapy therefore should be to maximise plasma peak concentrations (Cmax). This can only be achieved when the total daily dose is administered in one single application daily. Additionally, once daily application increases convenience of treatment and therapeutic owner and patient compliance.

Baytril is available as tablets in different concentrations of enrofloxacin, and as injectable solutions. The tablets can be easily split in order to achieve accurate dosing according to the body weight of the individual patient.

The injectable solutions allow the vet practitioner to begin treatment with an injection while dispensing one of the tablet formulations to the animal owner for follow-up treatment at home.

PDF Version (Size: 140 KB) © 2001 Bayer AG

References
(4)Meinen JB, McClure JT, Rosin E: Pharmacokinetics of enrofloxacin in clinically normal dogs and mice and drug pharmacodynamics in neutropenic mice with Escherichia coli and staphylococcal infections. Am J Vet Res 56: 1219-1224, 1995.

(5)Wetzstein HG, DeJong A: In vitro bactericidal activity and post antibiotic effect of fluoroquinolones used in veterinary medicine. Suppl Compend Contin Educ Pract Vet 18 (2): 22-29, 1996.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

And if it is injectable subcutaneously, and is needed, you might ask the vet for the injectable version rather than the bad-tasting pills that may cause nausea and diarrhea.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Shanti weighs 12 lbs. at the vet today. Baytril bottle says 22.7 mg 10 tabs. He took this last year for his IBD and did well. I wonder though if it has given him some stomach issues.
I will speak with the vet tomorrow before he has another dose.
Shanti usually isn't real perky, he has IBD, asthma, arthritis, and of course he is diabetic and 14+ years old. I would say though that he is off today. He was complaining to me earlier and he doesn't do that very often, I was moving him around and he wasn't liking it. Especially when I picked him up for the BG test. Sometimes he does complain but more so this evening.
Did another BG test, 274 +almost 3, but sample seemed scant so could be a little higher. I had a problem getting blood so don't want to poke him again.
Will try to get him a eat a little more, do you think it is safe for me to go to bed? I could get up in a couple hours and test if that seems necessary.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

are you using a human glucometer or an AlphaTrak or other pet glucometer? if it's a human meter, you're probably ok. if it's a pet meter, i'd get another test about 5 hrs after the shot, so another 2 hours. he's not dropping too quickly, but i don't know his habits so it's hard to say anything for certain. if in doubt, leave food available and set an alarm.

pancreatitis can be very painful. Often the pancreas itself (in other words, abdomen) is painful to the touch. i'm mentioning it because it's very common and it sounds like the symptoms you're describing. if it's really bad the cat might get into a "meatloaf" position. everything tucked in, head down sometimes. just feeling crappy.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Read on 1800 meds that Baytril is given to cats at 2.27 mg per pound, that would be 27.24. That sounds quite different from the 5 mg Bayer talks about unless it is 5 mg per pound. I am confused now.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Human glucose meter. Relion. At the vet today she felt his belly, he didn't have a reaction. I will leave food out and check on him in a few hours. No meatloaf position, looks like his normal position and no hiding which he does when he gets to feeling funky from IBD or other things. Thank you for your help, really just having someone to share with and get feedback from is a big help.
Any suggestions for in the morning, to shoot or not to shoot , that is the question. I will read your answer probably in the morning. What number should I shoot at and what if he still hesitates to eat? Thanks again.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Because of the steroid which increases his glucose, I suspect he may need some insulin to keep him somewhat reasonable and avoid DKA and hepatic lipidosis. If you have a sense of how much his regular dose drops him and where he usually starts out, you may be able to work out a dose that is reasonable and safe.

With cats that have erratic food intake/output/glucose issues, it may be that using a lower level of Lantus, plus a tiny bit of a shorter acting insulin when he is high would be the safest for him right now, given that Lantus works best with consistent dosing, but he isn't having terrifically consistent eating. There are a few folks in the Lantus Tight Regulation forum who have done this and you may want to post there to ask for ideas, as well as discussing this with your vet.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Is there any chance you can start a spreadsheet with his tests and dose in it? It's so helpful to see test data in context.

Can someone post the link for that, please? I can't do it with the tech I'm using.

Typically when people are just starting out, we suggest you don't shoot below 200. I think I would post here in the morning with the bg test and ask for guidance if it is under 200. If over 200 you can probably give the same dose as tonight.

Does Shanti have any history of ketones? I think you said no, but I can't look back either.

If he's eating at least some, say 1/3-1/2 his usual amount and you are able to monitor him, I think you could probably shoot over 200.

If you don't find someone on here to help you in the morning, feel free to post on the Lantus/Levemir Tight Regulation Insulin Support group for advice. It's a busy place with several other experienced Lantus users who could help you figure out how to proceed.

I'm off to bed. Nighty night!
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Cats are really good at hiding pain. Pancreatitis can make them nauseous. I would ask your vet fir a prescription for ondansetron which is a human drug that works well for this. Another one is cerenia which you can get from your vet. Your vet could run a blood test to see if it is pancreatitis. It's the fPL test. My Max has had chronic pancreatitis fir over 4 years. Sometimes when he had it he will eat Gerber's all meat baby food.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Hi Marlene,

I hope Shanti is doing well this morning. I just saw that you might need some directions for setting up the spreadsheet, so I've included them below. Once you get it set up, it will help others assist you in making dosing decisions. It's okay if you don't have much consistent data yet; any data will be helpful.

If you have any problems setting up the spreadsheet, let us know!
Shelly

1. First of all, you’ll need to set up a Google account if you don’t have one already. Here’s the link for it: https://accounts.google.com/SignUp?cont ... ageAccount

2. Once you set up your account, make sure you are signed in to it. Then click on this link: https://drive.google.com/previewtemplat ... lic&pli=1#

3. This will bring up the template that you can use. In the upper, left-hand corner of the page, it says “Use this template.” Click on that.

4. Now you have your own copy of the template. At the top, left-hand corner of the page, click on “File” and then choose “Rename.” You can now change the name of your spreadsheet (e.g., “Shanti's SS”).

5. Once you finish entering the date, numbers, etc., you will need to publish your spreadsheet. Click on “File” again and then click on “publish to the web.” A little pop-up box will appear. You will want to make sure that the box that says “automatically republish when changes are made” has a checkmark next to it. Then click on “start publishing.”

6. Now, you need to make sure other people can see your spreadsheet. Click on the blue “share” button on the upper right-hand corner of the page. A pop-up box will appear. Where it says “private,” change that to “anyone with the link can see” and click save at the bottom of the box. (Someone mentioned a problem with this step in the instructions, although others haven't. If you have a problem here, please let me know.)

7. Finally, you have to add the spreadsheet to your FDMB account. First copy the web address that appears in the address bar on your spreadsheet. Come back to FDMB and click on “User Control Panel” at the top left-hand side of the page. Then click on the tab that says “Profile” Next, click on the tab that says “Edit Signature.” There’s a little “url” button at the top of the box where you write. Click on it. This is what will show up in the box:



Click in between the middle brackets and paste the web address for the spreadsheet that you created.

In the end, it will look something like this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/.....[url][/quote]
Click to expand...
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

This morning Shanti seems alot better, he ate his normal amount and behaves like he normally would.

In the night +5.5 I checked his BG and it was 354, never seemed to drop much although he hadn't eaten very well. With giving him whatever he would eat last night he did eat some and in the night I see that he also ate some.
This morning AMP 309. I actually took that at 11 hours then tried to see if he would eat before giving him his insulin, also wanted to be sure he would keep everything down. He didn't vomit yesterday but I just didn't want to take any chances.
This mornings shot was about 2.8 because of his high AMP number. He had been reduced his prior four shots because of either a low number or lack of appetite.
I have put a call into the vet about the Baytril, that may have upset his stomach. I won't give him another until I hear from her.

Although I write all his numbers down in case I have to post, I will see about a shreadsheet, I have said that before but have yet to do it.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Would you please remove the candle icon from your original post....the candle and rainbow icons symbolize that an animal has died and if you leave it up a couple things will happen - people will look to see what happen and post sympathy messages and you won't get the help you need and are asking for, because people will think you are posting a goodbye message.

It's best not to use any icon or use the ? or i if you want to use an icon.

I'm glad to see that you got help and good suggestions, please update and let us know how he is doing today.
 
Re: Shanti not wanting to eat again

Don't feel bad about the candle. I made the same mistake my first week posting.
 
As of 1:00 eastern time Shanti seems normal, purring when I give him head butt and having his noon snack.
Haven't spoken with the vet yet so no Baytril today. Also will do a BG in another 20 minutes at +5 hours. If there is a problem I will let you know.
 
The vet is not sure but his teeth are not good and she thinks that may be producing some infection. She is hesitant to do a dental because Shanti has athma and also he has developed a heart murmur which she suspects to be HCM. If we can wait in the middle of October he will have a senior blood panel and a heart panel. Depending on the results he will have an ultra sound and echocardiogram. The reason she wants to wait is the Pet insurance will change and cover these procedures, but if he doesn't improve we will go ahead before that.
He has so many issues but most things seem pretty good right now. He has IBD and is doing the best he has in a long time, we had a struggle with him last year and some of the weight he lost from that never really came back. Anyway I answered your question and then some.

The vet wants me to give Shanti the Baytril, that was something I thought may have affected him last night but this time he will have it with food. We will see if it works out. As I said he is doing normal today.
 
Max has a murmur. I took him to a cardiologist fir an echo and it is benign. It sounds louder when he is stressed.
 
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