PROZINC REQUIRES HIGHER DOSAGE???

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VICKIE&MAGIC

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Hi there!

I switched from Vetsulin to ProZinc the first of December due to the problems with Vetsulin. While the ProZinc seems to be "okay", it is taking considerably more to attain the same results.

I was using around 2u 2X daily with the Vetsulin, and Magic was doing well. I would say she was regulated.

When I started her on the ProZinc, I started her out at 1u 2x daily, and have been increasing by .5u every 1 to 2 weeks (I have faithfully follows the "Start Low, Go Slow" rule). We are now up to 4u twice daily, and her nadir is still consistently well over 200.

I am just wondering if anyone else has experienced this?

Thank you!

Vickie and Magic
 
Perhaps.

We're at maybe 50% to 100% more than when on PZI Vet. It's hard be too exact since we do sliding scale and his appetite varies.

HOWEVER, this trend started just before our switch and H has many things going on with him that could account for this.

AND another HOWEVER, I'd first be asking if there has been a known dosage difference between Vetsulin and PZI Vet??? My suspicion is that yes, one might give a little more PZI Vet than Vetsulin because PZI is a little more longer acting insulin [more insulin released over a long period] - but I may be wrong about this. So assuming there is a difference between Vetsulin and PZI Vet and a difference between PZI Vet and ProZinc then you might be trying to account for both of these. But a lot of big IFs here.

ALSO, as time goes on, some cats end up needing more insulin. So there are a lot of factors at work here that could be accounting for the increased need.

For us H's increased needs are not that big of a deal - it's just taken us a little getting used to though and I've had to become comfortable giving him seeming a lot more insulin. But once we found the new adjusted dose and his curves normalized about a month to a month and a half after the switch, they are not anything wild with big deltas. They're pretty much like before when on PZI Vet, just with more insulin.

If one goes with the [perhaps erroneous] hypothesis that perhaps ProZinc human recombinant insulin has a lower bio-availability than beef or pork insulins, it might be considered a plus to ProZinc that it is in essence a lower strength insulin and can thus be dosed in more precise gradients. Of course the minus to this would be a higher per dose cost. I've actually wished many times before that there were some way to dilute PZI Vet insulin.

Alternatively to ProZinc there is also the BCP PZI which is an all beef insulin vs ProZinc's human recombinant insulin. I've read that one can get a free 5ml sample of the BCP [just make sure you get the U-40 strength]. And if you did try it out, it might be advisable to reduce back to the 2u.

Do you guys have a spreadsheet I could look at?
 
Dear Gator & H,

Thank you SO MUCH for your info. I had been thinking that, since ProZinc has advertised itself as a "gentler" insulin...that might possibly translate to needing more insulin to achieve the same results.

On their website, they show a video of a girl giving her cat it's insulin shot. They show the cat receiving it's normal dose of 4 units. At the time, I thought they were showing this amount because it was easier to see in the syringe. However, then I remembered that ProZinc's literature mentions a starting dose of .1 to .3 units per pound. Magic weighs 15 pounds, which means that ProZinc believes a starting dose could have been as high as 4.5 units! Of course, I didn't start her there. I started her on 1 unit twice a day, and have gradually gone up since then.

I thought I had read other people who were posting that ProZinc users are using more insulin than they had used as previous PZI users.

Thank you again for your insight. My first priority is for Magic to get back on track. However, I have to admit that I was hoping I would be able to use one bottle of the ProZinc for 2 months. I guess that isn't going to happen! :-)

Take care!

Vickie and Magic
 
VICKIE&MAGIC said:
I started her out at 1u 2x daily, and have been increasing by .5u every 1 to 2 weeks (I have faithfully follows the "Start Low, Go Slow" rule). We are now up to 4u twice daily, and her nadir is still consistently well over 200.
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In my experience helping others, PZI does not normally require twice the dosage of Vetsulin. It could be that .5 unit increases are too much. Can you post your data for the past couple of weeks?
 
VICKIE&MAGIC said:
Thank you SO MUCH for your info. I had been thinking that, since ProZinc has advertised itself as a "gentler" insulin...that might possibly translate to needing more insulin to achieve the same results.
Click to expand...
I just want to make sure there is no mistake, I am not saying that ProZinc takes more or should take more than what other insulins might need. Just that with H, he does need more and that trend seems to have started before the switch [with the introduction of a little "low carb" dry food to get his weight and appetite back on track that shouldn't be a player at this point].

VICKIE&MAGIC said:
However, then I remembered that ProZinc's literature mentions a starting dose of .1 to .3 units per pound. Magic weighs 15 pounds, which means that ProZinc believes a starting dose could have been as high as 4.5 units!
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I think I've read here on this board that insulin needs have little to do with the weight of a cat. H is 14+ pounds and gets less than 1u of ProZinc for instance.

VICKIE&MAGIC said:
I thought I had read other people who were posting that ProZinc users are using more insulin than they had used as previous PZI users.
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If you know where these other posts are then please post into this thread. To my knowledge I'm the only one who has noted more needed while on ProZinc than on PZI Vet. But if any others are noticing this it should be absolutely noted.
 
Hi, my name is Tania and my "son" is Scooby. Scooby has been on PZI Vet for the last 10 years and had been well regulated on 3.6 units. We started using Prozinc as of January 4th and i just wanted to let you know that as of right now (it took 1 1/2 months to regulate) and we are at 5.6 units. His fructosamine test came back with a result of 400 "good regulation". I just wanted to note that yes, my son is definitely needing more Prozinc compared to when he was on PZI. I would also like to note that my vet has her cat on Prozinc now and she, too, noted his dose is also more than when he was on PZI.
 
When we switched from Vetsulin to PZI (PZI Vet, so could differ from ProZ), once we reached the same dose that had worked best on Vetsulin I found that on some cycles Bix got about the same drop, but it seemed like only on some cycles here & there. Because he was on dry food at the time (and free feeding, and sometimes not eating as well as normal due to IBD stomach issues) it was hard to really make sense of the #s. Thankfully he was nice enough to finally take to canned food. The dosing picture changed radically with that, making it hard to draw comparisons with Vetsulin any longer.

If you do have #s you can post, that is a big help. There are some subtleties in PZI #s that can give clues sometimes as to what is going on, and people may be able to help give you some insight.

Is Magic on LC canned food? I haven't seen many cats come through here needing that high a dose on LC, though of course ECID and there are so many factors that can be involved. And I have not seen that much with ProZinc, so my comments are either general ones or PZI Vet specific.
 
We just switched to PZI today, former Vetsulin user...All comments are appreciated at this point, I am sure we will have concerns and questions...Starting Puttz out at 2U BID on PZI (he weighed in at 18.3 lbs today). Thanks for everyones help, as always!
 
Terry and Puttz said:
We just switched to PZI today, former Vetsulin user...All comments are appreciated at this point, I am sure we will have concerns and questions...Starting Puttz out at 2U BID on PZI (he weighed in at 18.3 lbs today). Thanks for everyones help, as always!
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Which PZI are you using?
Do you have a spread sheet [instructions for this can be found in the Tech Support Forum]? Are you home testing? Are you on low carb wet food only diet? Perhaps you can also make a profile [instruction also in the Tech Support forum]. Also you should start a new topic here in the PZI forum to get the most attention.

Please also make sure to read the sticky at the top of this PZI forum - some good reading in there.
 
OK, here's the deal. At this point Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica [BIV] the manufacturer of ProZinc either has not noticed a trend in cats needing more ProZinc than PZI Vet [or other insulins] or will not tell me if they are noticing such a trend. But they did say cats needing more insulin is, "not a trend." Also that, "some cats have needed dosing adjustments." So...

They did take an "adverse reaction" report from me about the fact that the ProZinc did not act like I had expected [that's all that is needed for an "adverse reaction report"]. These reports help BIV track trends in their products and also go to the FDA.

So here is what I recommend. If your cat needs more ProZinc than PZI Vet or perhaps even more than with Vetsulin, call BIV at 866-638-2226 option 2 then 1, and file an adverse reaction report. It only takes a few minutes and this will potentially help other kitties too.

And if your cat needs more ProZinc than others, also post into this topic if you have not already.
 
Gator and H....Got the 866 toll free number handy, still trying to adjust Puttz to his new insulin ProZinc...Ups and downs, but overall, a gentler down than Vetsulin - I must admit! We are on Day 6 and his numbers are still keeping me on my toes! Thank you for the phone number, keeping toes and fingers crossed for good/great results for my SugarKitty and his new insulin!
 
Yea, if you are going to report a difference, I'd make sure you had tried ProZinc for at least 60 days and had the cat well regulated before and after before reporting that it takes a different amount of insulin. And if you were on Vetsulin, I'd make sure the difference is fairly substantial as there really are no guideline for moving from Vetsulin to ProZinc - only the study done on PZI Vet to ProZinc. The customer support has been nice which I called. However, they were very much trying to consult with my vet rather than have a direct conversation with me.
 
Gator & H said:
OK, here's the deal. At this point Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica [BIV] the manufacturer of ProZinc either has not noticed a trend in cats needing more ProZinc than PZI Vet [or other insulins] or will not tell me if they are noticing such a trend. But they did say cats needing more insulin is, "not a trend." Also that, "some cats have needed dosing adjustments." So...

They did take an "adverse reaction" report from me about the fact that the ProZinc did not act like I had expected [that's all that is needed for an "adverse reaction report"]. These reports help BIV track trends in their products and also go to the FDA.

So here is what I recommend. If your cat needs more ProZinc than PZI Vet or perhaps even more than with Vetsulin, call BIV at 866-638-2226 option 2 then 1, and file an adverse reaction report. It only takes a few minutes and this will potentially help other kitties too.

And if your cat needs more ProZinc than others, also post into this topic if you have not already.
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Gator and H...Day 7 and numbers are going up, strangely, Puttz is acting good, I gave him a fat 3U this AM, and I am guessing that the dosage will be going up again soon. My biggest concern is that the 'trial 45-60' period' is going to do him more harm than good, ie kidneys, UTI, etc. What are you experiencing with your SugarKitty on ProZinc?
 
Terry and Puttz said:
Gator and H...Day 7 and numbers are going up, strangely, Puttz is acting good, I gave him a fat 3U this AM, and I am guessing that the dosage will be going up again soon. My biggest concern is that the 'trial 45-60' period' is going to do him more harm than good, ie kidneys, UTI, etc. What are you experiencing with your SugarKitty on ProZinc?
Click to expand...
Terry, my point was that if you are going to call them to report your cat needs a higher dose then you should wait and have at least some "proof" of sorts. But you should call them anytime you feel you need to for whatever reason you deem fit.

Here is the link to our spreadsheet:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... XYwVFJ4M0E

He is now well regulated pretty much below 200 and we are slowly [the way I want] moving down. I have posted frequently on why were are not even regulated at a lower number [my decision]. I am quite happy with ProZinc [except I have noticed it potentially takes a little more to do the same job but that trend may have started before the switch] You can read my recent reply to Alice here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6719
And you can read in Alice's posts my other input to her.

I've responded to you specific in another topic you started. But be patient, you are only on day 7 and you are only on day 3 of grabbing the PS numbers. It took me at least a good few weeks to have the confidence to feel like we were headed in the right direction.
 
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