Prescription food or not for diabetic cat

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catpoems

catpoems

Member Since 2014
Hi all, I'm new to the forum. My oldest cat, 16.5, was just diagnosed with diabetes. He also has a bad heart and is a very difficult cat to deal with, so the vets admit his care is going to be difficult. My main vet advises starting him with low carb high protein food for the first two weeks before we decide about the insulin (the difficulty will be monitoring because of his personality and his bad heart--he gets overstressed and could give himself a heart attack).
We ended up with 2 vets because of the situation with his heart, so to clarify I have my main vet and the other vet who happened to diagnose the diabetes.
The vet who diagnosed him suggested Royal Canin diabetic food, but my main vet said many people swear by non-diabetic food as long as it's low carb high protein. I can't get a straight answer from anybody on carbs in the Royal Canin prescription food, nor can I truly figure out the carbs in other cat foods. I am trying to only use canned as I know that is best (although the vet that suggested Royal Canin wanted me to use DRY and save the canned for giving shots).
Can anybody just give me an idea of the one or a few canned cat foods that are for sure low carb high protein? I read that list by Dr. Lynne but when I saw that she posted that the ones with gravy are high carbs I wondered how I would know that. I just want to know for sure the name of one or more foods that I KNOW are safe for my cat. His numbers are apparently "low" enough that there is a slight possibility we could do this with food and I want to give it a try!!!
Thank you so much for any help you can give us.
 
Foods with grains (wheat, rice, corn), legumes (beans, peas, lentils), fruits (cranberries), or root vegetables (carrots, turnips) may have a carb content that is over 10% calories from carbohydrates. Not only that, but the ingredients, while great for humans, are not what a cat would go hunting for when hungry.
 
Hello, and welcome to FDMB!

If you let us know where you are in the world then we should be able to suggest some low carb cat foods for you. :smile:
What exactly are you feeding your kitty at the moment?

And regarding your kitty's stress levels, the good thing about feline diabetes is that it can be home-managed, so vet visits can be greatly reduced.
Most of us here test our kitties' blood glucose at home. This ought not to be a stressful process for the kitty, and if you'd like to learn we can certainly help you with that.

Eliz
 
Thank you for responding! I'm so happy to find this forum. I thought I would get an email notice for answers, but I guess I should have checked back sooner!

I'm in Arizona. My vet and I are trying food first before the insulin because after the big switch in food she thinks his glucose number will be done. It was 302 and the vet who diagnosed it wanted him to start insulin and use Royal Canin diabetes food. My regular vet says to use any food that is the highest protein and lowest carb.
So I put him on Nutro's Natural Choice senior canned food because it seems to be very low in carbs. But I want more choices than that and I want to know the BEST one to use. Before this he was eating Purina's dry UR (for urinary tract infections) and Wellness chicken canned. And he was eating treats which I now understand are high carb. So I think he was getting a lot of carbs.

My vet and I both think I'm going to have trouble giving my cat two shots a day and doing glucose checks so we're hoping and praying to avoid trying it if we can. He really is irritable and will bite and I have a medical condition where it's dangerous for me to get bit (I have lymphedema where protein masses just under the skin and so infections are fed by the protein much faster than normal). But if I have to do it I will try to get him to allow me to do it.

OK, I will go check out that link now!
 
Hello,
catpoems said:
Thank you for responding! I'm so happy to find this forum. I thought I would get an email notice for answers, but I guess I should have checked back sooner!
Click to expand...
If you look down at the bottom left hand corner of the page you'll see a 'subscribe topic' box that you can tick, and I think you will then get email notification if new posts are made to the thread (please someone correct me if I'm wrong...)

I see that Larry gave you the link to the food list, and a link to some other suggestions as well. You'll see that there is quite a bit of choice. If you are going to be relying on food to keep your kitty's blood glucose low then you may want to try some of the lowest carb options. But do switch foods gradually to minimise the possibility of tummy upsets.
I don't know what your feeding schedule is but feeding 'little and often' (mini meals/snacks) rather than a couple of large meals can stimulate the cat's pancreas to work without overwhelming it with too much to do at any one time.

That '321' glucose reading isn't too bad. We've seen a lot worse!
Was that test done while he was still on dry food? We've found that switching from dry to wet low carb can reduce the blood glucose by around 100 points (and perhaps even more in cats that are carb sensitive).
Also, tests done at the vets can be higher than would normally be the case because the stress of the vet visit can elevate the blood glucose.
And do I understand you correctly that your kitty may have/have had a UTI infection? Infections are notorious for raising BG levels.

While you waiting to see what the effect of the diet change will be you might try gently touching your kitty's ears, or gently getting hold of some skin at the scruff of his neck (if you think it is safe for you to do so); perhaps during a grooming or cuddling session? That might give you an idea of how he would respond to being given shots or ear-pricks. And you could try rewarding him for compliance with a nice low carb treat, maybe? (Just trying to think ahead here in case the food switch isn't sufficient....)

Would you like to tell us your kitty's name?
And what would you like us to call you?

Keeping fingers and paws crossed for you,

Eliz
 
The Little Fiskies Classic Pates are low carb and better protein. However, do not feed your cat the Turkey and Giblet it has very high sodium and heart kitties should not have too much sodium as they run the risk of congestive heart failure.

Another alternative is Natures Variety Raw. It's a frozen food that is low carb, low sodium, and high protein.

You didn't say what your cat's heart problem is or if there are medication being given for that. The heart problem and medications given, if any, can further restrict what food is safe to give your cat.

If you can give more information about the heart issue and what medications are given for that I might be able to offer more assistance.

Anita and Squeaker
 
Thank you so much! I've been working all weekend on my cat's diet (and his 3 feline "siblings"). His name is Mac. I've been making a table of cat foods that look good according to that link you gave me and also other research I've done. I realized that the Wellness I was feeding him was the grain free, so that was ok, although it looks like their protein isn't particularly high. The Nutro I am now feeding him is the Natural Choice minced which is low carb/high protein.

My table has brand, flavor, if it has liver or not, protein %, carb %, as fed protein %, as fed carb %, calories per can size, other, and cost. I'm going to do the cost last as I don't want that to be the consideration right now because I want to do what I can to get his glucose down as much as possible before he's tested next.

What I've been doing is looking for more options and particularly looking to begin with with the fancier brands. I want to get him (them) the best stuff right now that I can and later on then I will try to bring in a less expensive food to the mix. I also don't want to only feed them one brand because I am always worried about pet food recalls and figure it's safer not to give an animal 100% from one company.

Question: One big point that I do not understand is the difference between protein and carb #s "as fed" versus otherwise. The link seems to be NOT "as fed," and yet the pet food companies like to give the "as fed" sometimes. On my table, I have made a place for both, but haven't always gotten the information for both!

Question: I'm also having a hard time figuring out the quantity of food as every source gives different information on how many calories are needed. And are kcal the same as calories?

They must purposely make this so hard because you almost have to be a rocket scientist to figure this all out.

Thanks so much for all your help! I will definitely "give back" to the forum when I get things figured out over here :).
Luanne
 
Most of the pet food companies only give the "guaranteed analysis" figures on the cans and on their websites. Dr. Lisa Pierson, who put together that Food Chart we referred you to, contacted all the pet food companies and got the more accurate "as fed" values from them and then did lots of calculations to get the carb percents on her chart.

Sounds like you are duplicating a lot of the work that is already on that food chart. Did you contact all those pet food companies to get the "as fed" values for those foods?

The "as fed" values better reflect the nutritional value your cat is getting from the food than the "guaranteed analysis" does since those GA amounts are only minimum/maximums of the protein/fat/carb/fiber content.

IMHO, you pay a lot for those prescription foods and often do not get higher quality than what is commercially available.

I switched all my cats to the same foods. It was too difficult to have 3 cats on different diets.

Some of the medications given for heart issues can affect the BG (blood glucose) levels, so be sure to let us know what medications your kitty Mac is getting.

As to how much you need to feed, that depends on a lot of factors. A good baseline to maintain current weight is 15 calories per pound +70. So a 10 pound cat would get 150 +70= 220 calories a day. That's about 2 cans of Fancy Feast pate style food, which is how much my 10.75 pound Wink gets. How well regulated your cat's BG levels are also influence the amount of food needed. Not well regulated, the cat is usually starving since they can't properly process all the food they are eating. My Wink was eating 10-13 ounces of food when he was still unregulated. If your cat is overweight, you need to feed a bit less. One way to check, is to weigh once a week and then adjust food intake up or down a bit, maybe only 1/2 to 1 teaspoon can make a difference in weight gain/loss. At least it does for my 3 kitties.
 
I'm surprised to hear that Dr. Pierson's protein and carb #s are "as fed" because they seem to correspond with the regular, not the "as fed" when I look at the companies who share that information. It seems like usually the "as fed" have lower protein than the regular protein number, for instance.

Here's an example: Weruva TRULUXE On the Cat Wok has protein listed at 53.3% and carbs at 3.%, but the "as fed" protein is 11.19% and carbs is .8%. The Truluxe is a new food and not on Dr. Pierson's list, but this seems to correspond with her figures as being regular, not as fed. So now I'm even more confused.

Here's another example: Nutro Natural Choice Minced Senior Cod & Tuna is 68.53% protein and carbs is 1.5%, but the "as fed" protein is 10% and carbs is pess than 2%. This information comes from calling them. These newer Nutro foods are not on Dr. Pierson's list either.

So when I see protein going up to 65%, etc., on Dr. Pierson's list it doesn't look like "as fed" information.

In the past few days I am putting together enough information to see that the prescription foods are not that great and in fact I wonder if my cat being on a dry food for urinary tract problems (he has not had a urinary tract infection in years) was bad for his glucose. I am also starting to wonder if dry cat food is just really bad all the way around.

Mac takes Atenolol for his heart. He's got Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy and he's been on that medication about 8 years. He's 16.5.
 
She's calculating percent calories from each of protein, fat, and carbohydrate, not weight.
Calories per gram:
3.5 protein
8.5 fat
3.5 carbohydrate
You have to take the weight in grams for each.
Then multiply that by the calories per gram.
Then total the calories.
Then calculate the percent of calories from each source.

2 ways to get estimates are:
http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html[/url [url]http://fnae.org/carbcalorie.html
 
BJM, they are percentages, but not as fed percentages, right? I mean, they just don't make sense with the other brands for "as fed" percentages. The reason I say that is because "as fed" are the numbers where the amount of the moisture is the extremely high percentage, isn't it?
 
catpoems said:
BJM, they are percentages, but not as fed percentages, right? I mean, they just don't make sense with the other brands for "as fed" percentages. The reason I say that is because "as fed" are the numbers where the amount of the moisture is the extremely high percentage, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Hi Luanne,

I think the 'moisture' element may be confusing you, and may actually be a bit of 'red herring' here...

As I understand it 'as fed' simply means 'what the food values are in the can at that time'.

Cat food labelling isn't always accurate.
What you see listed on the label may (or may not) be a true reflection of what is in the can at that time. This, I think, is especially the case in the US where a "guaranteed analysis" of minimum/maximum values is given. So, in order to know exactly what is in the can at any given time it's necessary to contact the manufacturer for the current 'as fed' values.
(As Deb said above: "The "as fed" values better reflect the nutritional value your cat is getting from the food than the "guaranteed analysis" does since those GA amounts are only minimum/maximums of the protein/fat/carb/fiber content.")

Carb content is never listed. That is worked out by adding up all the other percentages and deducting that from 100%. (ie, if everthing else adds up to 98% then you can assume that 2% of the food in the can will be carbohydrates.)
Once the percentage of ingredients (protein, fat, carb etc) is obtained it's then possible to work out what percentage of calories comes from each element of the food. And for diabetics we want foods that have less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates.

The percentages of calories can be calculated on the food just as it is (including moisture/water), or without the moisture/water (dry matter).

I do hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you further.... :?

Eliz
 
Thanks, Elizabeth.
I think I'm finally getting a handle on what the "as fed" and "dry content" numbers are. But the list is still not making sense. Although Dr. P's list says she has the dry columns and that seems to indicate that her calorie columns are "as fed," I don't believe they are. For instance, Tiki Cat Koolani Luau food is listed as 85% protein and 15% something else (I think it was fat, but can't remember right now). That equals 100%. That leaves zero room for moisture. "As fed" numbers are often something like this:

Protein 12%
Fat 6%
Carbs 2%
Ash 1%
Moisture 79%
Those equal 100% also, but they take into account the moisture that is necessary to make up a can.
I fed my cats the Koolani Luau last night and believe me there is moisture in that can.

So if her figures are not "as fed" or "dry content" how can they be compared when the other information I get from the companies (the only way to get the info, after all) is only done by "as fed" or "dry content" or both? Her figures are two years old and do not include newer foods so there can't be a comparison between her figures and figures I get for newer products.

Has anybody dealt with trying to use her list and adding foods to it and seeing that there isn't a point of comparison?

Also, I saved a draft on here, and it didn't save it, although I went to the place for my saved drafts to look for it.

Loving these cat icons on here, but finding it hard to interpret them too ;).
 
Hi Luanne,

A food may contain, for example, 12% protein by weight, but that doesn't mean that 12% of the calories in the food come from protein.
For example, if a hypothetical food contained 50% protein and 50% fat, that would not mean that 50% of the calories were from protein and 50% were from fat. Fat contains way more calories than protein does, and so the majority of the calories in that food would be from fat. (Protein has around 3.5 calories per gram and fat has 8.5 calories per gram).
catpoems said:
For instance, Tiki Cat Koolani Luau food is listed as 85% protein and 15% something else (I think it was fat, but can't remember right now). That equals 100%. That leaves zero room for moisture.
Click to expand...

The figures listed in your quote above mean that 85% of the calories in the food come from protein, and 15% of the calories come from fat. (And therefore zero calories come from carbs. Woohoo!)
That is quite different from the 'analysis' (by weight) of a food which would look like the figures you've written here:
Protein 12%,
Fat 6%
Carbs 2%
Ash 1%
Moisture 79%

Dr Pierson says this in her notes close to the beginning of the document:

"1) I recommend that the reader ignore the Dry Matter Basis data
and just focus on the Calorie values – the frst 4 columns. Most
nutritionists prefer to consider nutrients on an energy (calorie)
basis but dry matter fgures are included for those readers who
prefer to evaluate foods on a DMB. Going forward in this
document's dialog, I will be referring to calorie basis, not DMB"

Eliz
 
Elizabeth, that makes sense, but it still presents the problem that I can't compare her figures with products not on the list because I can't get this information from manufacturers. They use "as fed" or "dry content," not her special calculations.
Has anybody tried to do calculations like hers on the new products or figured out a way to compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges?
We are really talking about 3 different ways of calculating--and her way is a 3rd way not used by the companies.
 
Hmmm... <Eliz scratches head...>

Luanne, have you looked at this nifty calculator that BJ gave the link to above?
http://fnae.org/carbcalorie.html

It does the calculations for you. You just put in the figures from either the percentage analysis that's written on on the can label or (much more accurate IF you can get the figures from the manufacturer or the manufacturer's website) the 'as fed' percentage analysis.

Eliz
 
Anita - the Friskee's turkey and giblet is bad? DANGIT!! This is what I have been feeding my kittie, since it is low carb and low phosphourous and I can actually find it in the store.
However, she doesn't like it.

This will probably get lost in all the other comments but. . . what is the best Friskees then? I hear fish is bad, Then I hear the turkey and giblet is bad. And I'm not a fan of all the byproducts, but . . . heck, which is better? We tried some Mariner's catch, but it's very byproductyl. We had been eating the Special Diet Ocean White Fish long before she was diabetic, but I hear too much fish is bad? Is liver bad? Is EVERYTING BAD? :-x
 
I am not a feline nutritionist by any means, but I saw that you had asked about prescription dry food for urinary crystals. Sadly, my Buster became diabetic on Royal Canin Urinary SO (dry), so the dry prescription foods are not winners in my book. I now feed Wellness Turkey & Chicken flavors, and also Fancy Feast Classics (canned only). I add extra water to the food just to be safe. Knock on wood, we haven't had any crystal issues in 2 years since the switch. I hope you find something that works for sweet Mac - good luck!
 
Elizabeth, I'll try it and see how it goes, thanks!
Tara, thank you! I seriously wonder if the UR dry urinary tract food was bad for Mac. It makes me mad to think of how I thought I was doing the right thing for him and went way out of my way to get a brand he would he even eat and how expensive it is and yet was not good for him.
These vet offices tend to sell products that aren't in th ebest interests of the cats (and dogs). For instance, my vet has had me putting CET dental rinse in my cats' drinking water for years now and I just read that it has Xylitol, which is toxic for both cats and dogs.
I put up an avatar that is a picture my friend who is an artist just did of Mac.
 
The Friskies "special diet" pates are for urinary health. They also happen to be some of the lowest carb foods so - you get a two-fer-one!
 
Thank you so much everyone for helping me with the food for Mac. Yesterday we checked his glucose and it's down to 192 from 302!!! I think that the change is mostly due to the diet, although he might have had it elevated a bit from stress when it was checked the first time (for the 302).

Good thing we didn't start the insulin!

I've narrowed down to some foods that I feel are really good foods for him and his buddies. They and I both like the Weruva canned foods, especially Paw Lickin Chicken with a small lunch each day of 9 Livers to get a little liver in since Dr. Pierson mentioned that she likes liver in the diet. I am still feeding a little canned Nutro Natural Choice with the good values from time to time, too. No for dry food for these guys! After all this reading I feel like it's so bad for cats!

The calorie calculator that was shared above I tried to use, but when I did it on the WEruva, I did not get the same calories as the manufacturer, so I don't know . . . .
 
The online calculators are for estimates, ie approximate values.

Also, each batch can be slightly different, based on what will make the most profitable combination for the manufacturer, so any numbers are but a snapshot in time.
 
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