Petley's Coarse Pate - Guidance needed

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MarianneZA

MarianneZA

Member Since 2019
Hi,

I am new on this forum, I am in the process of changing my cat to a wet food diet, but, I need some help with suitable canned foods.

When we visited the vet 2 weeks ago they did a blood test on my cat (I reported increased urination over the last 3 weeks) - the blood test reported a highish glucose level. We agreed to switch her to prescription food and then return in 2 weeks to retest her glucose levels before looking at any medications (I will be going back in 2 days).

She is on Royal Canin Diabetic kibble and I also opted for the Hill's m/d canned food. Her thirst/urination has decreased, but, I noted the best results when she had the wet/canned food. I couldn't get more of the canned Hills due to unavailability, so, I searched for the Fancy Feast pates (which seems to be discontinued locally... managed to find a few cans of the savory salmon feast classic.

I came across another brand that seems to be low in glycaemic carbs - Petley's Coarse Pate... Below is the analysis on the can:
Crude Protein - 8.5%, Moisture - 82%, Total Fat - 6%, Crude Fibre - 0.9%, Crude Ash - 0.9%. It lists the Glycaemic Carbohydrates as 3%.

My question is - do you think this would be a suitable wet food (seeing that Fancy Feast might not be available locally going forward)? I can post a picture of the can and info if required.

Another question I have - I am sure my cat's glucose level would be a bit lower when she goes back to the vet (urination is not over the top anymore and she has started to lose some weight on her new eating regiment), however... she is not good with travelling and hates going to the vet, can her stress levels affect her blood glucose levels when measured at the vet?

Thanks in advance,
 
IMG_20190521_170354.jpg IMG_20190521_170115.jpg
 
Hello :bighug:

According to the label, the Petley's would not be a good choice of food for a diabetic cat. The second ingredient listed is wheat flour, which is not a good thing to be feeding to any cat. Although the can lists the carbohydrates at 3%, it is misleading, since the percentages include moisture content, which dilutes the other readings. On a dry matter basis, the carbohydrates would be closer to 15% I think. The Hill's m/d is also higher in carbs than you'd want to feed; nearly all the prescription diets are.

@JanetNJ I'm a bit out of my depth here; do you know of anybody with experience in the foods that might be available in South Africa?
 
Sam & Esse said:
Hello :bighug:

According to the label, the Petley's would not be a good choice of food for a diabetic cat. The second ingredient listed is wheat flour, which is not a good thing to be feeding to any cat. Although the can lists the carbohydrates at 3%, it is misleading, since the percentages include moisture content, which dilutes the other readings. On a dry matter basis, the carbohydrates would be closer to 15% I think. The Hill's m/d is also higher in carbs than you'd want to feed; nearly all the prescription diets are.

@JanetNJ I'm a bit out of my depth here; do you know of anybody with experience in the foods that might be available in South Africa?
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply,

I also suspect that the dry/kibble prescription foods are not good either. I have been giving my cat the Fancy Feasts I managed to find and she has done well on them, but, as mentioned, they are disappearing from the shelves and as per the shop assistants they won't be getting it again.

Any advice from anyone that knows of a suitable alternative in South Africa will be appreciated.
 
Hi

Thanks for this, the only one on the list would be the Whiskas in Jelly pouches....those I can easily get.

Thanks for the info,
 
IMG_20190522_151346.jpg I have attached the analysis from our local Whiskas pouches (in Jelly, 1+ Yrs). These are easy to get locally.

Apparently Fancy Feast has been discontinued locally due to new import regulations for ZA (sigh).
 
MarianneZA said:
I also suspect that the dry/kibble prescription foods are not good either.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not :arghh: It is a shame that the prescription kibble is usually the first food sold by veterinarians when they tell you your cat is diabetic.

:bookworm: The listing of ingredients/nutritional information is a bit different than what I am used to; it's hard when every country has its own standards. The only ingredient that is worrisome is "various sugars". However, it comes after minerals, so it may be in a small enough amount to be safe. I think that the Whiskas would be an okay food to feed for now. I would recommend, though, contacting the company either through the form on their website or their customer service phone number. They might not tell you what exactly the various sugars are (they might consider that a trade secret) but they should be able to tell you the carbohydrate percentage either on a dry matter basis or by Typical Nutrient Analysis (TNA) data.

I am not the best with math, but working with the percentages given on the pouch, I would think the carb content might be around 5%-6%. That's a pretty good range :) But the company should be able to give you much more exact numbers. Best of luck to you, and I hope Misty continues to improves, and enjoys her new diet :bighug:
 
Sam & Esse said:
Unfortunately not :arghh: It is a shame that the prescription kibble is usually the first food sold by veterinarians when they tell you your cat is diabetic.

:bookworm: The listing of ingredients/nutritional information is a bit different than what I am used to; it's hard when every country has its own standards. The only ingredient that is worrisome is "various sugars". However, it comes after minerals, so it may be in a small enough amount to be safe. I think that the Whiskas would be an okay food to feed for now. I would recommend, though, contacting the company either through the form on their website or their customer service phone number. They might not tell you what exactly the various sugars are (they might consider that a trade secret) but they should be able to tell you the carbohydrate percentage either on a dry matter basis or by Typical Nutrient Analysis (TNA) data.

I am not the best with math, but working with the percentages given on the pouch, I would think the carb content might be around 5%-6%. That's a pretty good range :) But the company should be able to give you much more exact numbers. Best of luck to you, and I hope Misty continues to improves, and enjoys her new diet :bighug:
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply,

I will try and contacy Whiskas for the info, I am not sure they will respond though... but I will figure it out somehow (even if by a little bit of trial and error).

I will let everyone know how she did after the vet visit tonight.
 
So, just came back from the vet - she hasn't gotten worse. Still tests more or less the same, but - other than that she has improved in terms of excessive thirst (which is much better) and she has also lost 0.5kg (now on 5.4g).

The vet agreed that we try and manage/improve the issue with diet for another month - so, I will go back to the vet end of June - they will then keep her for the day to test her blood glucose levels throughout the day. Based on the outcome we will then make a decision on whether we can continue to manage with food or whether she would need to move to insulin.
 
If I could ask one last question.... How much should I feed my cat if she is either on Fancy Feast classic cans or whiskas? She currently weighs 5.4kg and I have to help her lose some weight... I am guestimating about 2 Fancy Feast cans a day (maybe 2 and a half) or about 2 tot 2 and a half Whiskas pouches?
 
Hello :)

MarianneZA said:
If I could ask one last question.... How much should I feed my cat if she is either on Fancy Feast classic cans or whiskas? She currently weighs 5.4kg and I have to help her lose some weight... I am guestimating about 2 Fancy Feast cans a day (maybe 2 and a half) or about 2 tot 2 and a half Whiskas pouches?
Click to expand...

This -- is actually a harder question to answer than one would think. I'll try my best to explain everything as clearly as I can :bookworm:

A common starting point for figuring out the calories for weight loss for a cat is 13.5 x ideal weight of cat in pounds + 70 = calories fed per day.
5.4kg works out to 11.9 lbs, so if you'd like Misty down to, say, 4.6kg (10.14lbs) it would be 13.5 x 10.14 + 70 = 207kcal per day.
It looks like the Whiskas is 72 calories a pouch (although this would be best to check with the company if you can) so Misty would need just slightly less than 3 pouches a day.

There's a good chance that this will still be too many calories, but it's a starting point. By weighing Misty often, you will know if you need to cut more calories, keep them the same, or add more calories if she's losing weight too fast. Dr. Lisa explains it well here: https://catinfo.org/feline-obesity-an-epidemic-of-fat-cats/#Implementing_a_Safe_Weight-Loss_Program
(I believe she uses 13.6 instead of 13.5 in her formula, though.)

Here is where I get worried. Misty's weight loss of .5kg in two weeks would seem to be a good thing -- but she lost it too quickly. A cat can safely lose between 1% - 2% of their body weight per week. So, if Misty started at 5.9kg, the first week she could have safely been down to 5.782kg, and the second week 5.67 (rounded up). But she lost double that amount.

The thing is, an unregulated diabetic is not able to make efficient use of calories. It is possible that Misty will actually need more calories (and she might still be losing weight) until her blood glucose gets closer to normal levels. At this point, it might be better to get her settled into her new canned diet, and let her eat the amount she wants while you closely monitor her weight. If you notice that she starts to gain weight, then you can gradually reduce the amount fed.

The second thing I am worried about is Diabetic Ketoacidosis, or DKA. While it is fine that you are first trying to manage Misty's blood glucose with diet change alone, it does raise the risk of ketones developing. DKA can strike alarmingly fast, and it can have a very bad outcome if not treated properly, or in time. Many people here check their cat's urine for ketones with ketone test strips (bought from a pharmacy or chemist). Any reading over 'Trace' should be considered an emergency. Although it's a fair amount to read through, you can start learning the basics of DKA here:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...oacidosis-dka-and-blood-ketone-meters.135952/

One last thing I'd like to touch on if I haven't already overwhelmed you... You had asked:

MarianneZA said:
Another question I have - I am sure my cat's glucose level would be a bit lower when she goes back to the vet (urination is not over the top anymore and she has started to lose some weight on her new eating regiment), however... she is not good with travelling and hates going to the vet, can her stress levels affect her blood glucose levels when measured at the vet?
Click to expand...

The answer to this is Yes! Cats are very well known for stress raising their blood glucose levels by incredible amounts. Although your vet would like Misty to come back in for a glucose curve in a month, there is a good chance it's not going to be as accurate as you'd be comfortable with. Most everyone here tests their sugar kitty's blood glucose at home. While Misty gets used to her new diet, you might consider picking up a home blood glucose monitor. Now, without insulin involved, is the perfect time to get both Misty and yourself comfortable with testing. That way, you can keep track yourself of how the change to canned food is affecting her glucose levels, and there might be no need to leave her at the vet's for an entire day for a curve when you can do one yourself from the comfort of your own home.

I hope I haven't overwhelmed, or come across as bossy :nailbiting: I tried not to, at least :oops: I wish Misty and you the best of luck!
 
Sam & Esse said:
Hello :)



This -- is actually a harder question to answer than one would think. I'll try my best to explain everything as clearly as I can :bookworm:

A common starting point for figuring out the calories for weight loss for a cat is 13.5 x ideal weight of cat in pounds + 70 = calories fed per day.
5.4kg works out to 11.9 lbs, so if you'd like Misty down to, say, 4.6kg (10.14lbs) it would be 13.5 x 10.14 + 70 = 207kcal per day.
It looks like the Whiskas is 72 calories a pouch (although this would be best to check with the company if you can) so Misty would need just slightly less than 3 pouches a day.

There's a good chance that this will still be too many calories, but it's a starting point. By weighing Misty often, you will know if you need to cut more calories, keep them the same, or add more calories if she's losing weight too fast. Dr. Lisa explains it well here: https://catinfo.org/feline-obesity-an-epidemic-of-fat-cats/#Implementing_a_Safe_Weight-Loss_Program
(I believe she uses 13.6 instead of 13.5 in her formula, though.)

Here is where I get worried. Misty's weight loss of .5kg in two weeks would seem to be a good thing -- but she lost it too quickly. A cat can safely lose between 1% - 2% of their body weight per week. So, if Misty started at 5.9kg, the first week she could have safely been down to 5.782kg, and the second week 5.67 (rounded up). But she lost double that amount.

The thing is, an unregulated diabetic is not able to make efficient use of calories. It is possible that Misty will actually need more calories (and she might still be losing weight) until her blood glucose gets closer to normal levels. At this point, it might be better to get her settled into her new canned diet, and let her eat the amount she wants while you closely monitor her weight. If you notice that she starts to gain weight, then you can gradually reduce the amount fed.

The second thing I am worried about is Diabetic Ketoacidosis, or DKA. While it is fine that you are first trying to manage Misty's blood glucose with diet change alone, it does raise the risk of ketones developing. DKA can strike alarmingly fast, and it can have a very bad outcome if not treated properly, or in time. Many people here check their cat's urine for ketones with ketone test strips (bought from a pharmacy or chemist). Any reading over 'Trace' should be considered an emergency. Although it's a fair amount to read through, you can start learning the basics of DKA here:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...oacidosis-dka-and-blood-ketone-meters.135952/

One last thing I'd like to touch on if I haven't already overwhelmed you... You had asked:



The answer to this is Yes! Cats are very well known for stress raising their blood glucose levels by incredible amounts. Although your vet would like Misty to come back in for a glucose curve in a month, there is a good chance it's not going to be as accurate as you'd be comfortable with. Most everyone here tests their sugar kitty's blood glucose at home. While Misty gets used to her new diet, you might consider picking up a home blood glucose monitor. Now, without insulin involved, is the perfect time to get both Misty and yourself comfortable with testing. That way, you can keep track yourself of how the change to canned food is affecting her glucose levels, and there might be no need to leave her at the vet's for an entire day for a curve when you can do one yourself from the comfort of your own home.

I hope I haven't overwhelmed, or come across as bossy :nailbiting: I tried not to, at least :oops: I wish Misty and you the best of luck!
Click to expand...

Nope, not overwhelmed, that is a great answer - I am curious by nature and this didn't leave me with more questions than answers :)

To the weight loss - The vet gave her Hill's diabetic dry food and she flat out refused to eat it...I tried to transition her to the Hill's by giving half old food and half new... I just couldn't get her to eat it at all. In this time I tested her appetite by giving her the Hill's m/d canned food.... which she devoured, which at least gave me peace that her appetite was not the problem... it was purely a case of her refusing to eat the Hill's dry kibble. This went on for a week until I decided that it is clear she won't eat the Hill's, even if she is really hungry (and I don't intend to starve her either). I think the increased weight loss was because of this issue, I am keeping an eye on her weight now that she is eating regular meals again.

Also, currently, I am still feeding her some of the Royal Canin Diabetic while transitioning to the wet food diet, however, I am doing so in the morning... and I am thinking of rather doing so at night for a while... she waking me up way to early if I feed her wet food at night (My feeling is that the wet food I feed her at night is either not quite enough or maybe she has a glucose drop at night...?)

I am actually planning on buying a human glucose meter today, animal ones won't be available here in anycase. We don't have the brands mentioned on this forum, but, I am going to buy one that needs a small sample and one that is cheap for a start.... then, I can always change later when I know more (and at least get used to the testing... which I don't look forward to, poor kitty)

Thanks Again,
 
So, I bought 2 x glucose meters today... The one is a OneTouch Select Plus Flex and the other a Fora Diamond GD50... I watched some of the video links found on the forum and read the meter manuals... Armed with my new found knowledge I approached my cat..... Needless to say, 3 lancets later and only my own blood flowing...I still don't have a clean droplet from my cat.

I gave up for tonight, I didn't want to stress her out too much... I will try again tomorrow. Oddly enough... she will sit still for the vet, but when I try she is like a jack in a box, haha.
 
Hello :)

MarianneZA said:
To the weight loss - The vet gave her Hill's diabetic dry food and she flat out refused to eat it...I tried to transition her to the Hill's by giving half old food and half new... I just couldn't get her to eat it at all. In this time I tested her appetite by giving her the Hill's m/d canned food.... which she devoured, which at least gave me peace that her appetite was not the problem... it was purely a case of her refusing to eat the Hill's dry kibble. This went on for a week until I decided that it is clear she won't eat the Hill's, even if she is really hungry (and I don't intend to starve her either). I think the increased weight loss was because of this issue, I am keeping an eye on her weight now that she is eating regular meals again.
Click to expand...

Oh, that is wonderful to hear! I feel better knowing that there was a reason behind the extra weight loss. As long as the weight loss slows down now with regular meals, Misty should be good :joyful: Just keep an eye out for any signs of ketones developing.

MarianneZA said:
So, I bought 2 x glucose meters today... The one is a OneTouch Select Plus Flex and the other a Fora Diamond GD50... I watched some of the video links found on the forum and read the meter manuals... Armed with my new found knowledge I approached my cat..... Needless to say, 3 lancets later and only my own blood flowing...I still don't have a clean droplet from my cat.

I gave up for tonight, I didn't want to stress her out too much... I will try again tomorrow. Oddly enough... she will sit still for the vet, but when I try she is like a jack in a box, haha.
Click to expand...

Yay for the glucose meters, and sympathy for the first attempt to test :bighug: It should become easier with practice -- both for you and Misty. One thing that I do, that I don't think I've seen in any of the testing videos, is that I test Sam when he's sitting in my lap at the table. I sit sideways in the chair, with Sam facing out. I've got one leg up, with the ankle resting on the knee of the other leg, and Sam's sort of wedged in the hollow. It gives me quite a bit of control over him, and all the supplies are within easy reach. I use cotton make-up rounds to support his ear (and protect my fingers) and when I was first starting out, I'd quickly poke 3 little jab holes very close together so there'd be enough blood to test. A dab of petroleum jelly smeared on the edge of the ear before hand also really helped the blood bleed instead of running into his fur.

I have my fingers crossed your next test goes well, but you made the right call this evening :smuggrin: That's the best part of learning to test before starting insulin; it's okay if you're not able to get a reading. There's always tomorrow, and the day after that to practice :bighug:
 
Thanks, yep, If I can manage to collect one full daily curve each week until we go back to the vet it would be great... I am sure it will also help me make better decisions in terms of food, etc.

I will let everyone know how the next "lancing" attempt goes.... :nailbiting::cat::)
 
Foo. Is there anyone that could help, maybe distract her while you try to test? When I started with Sam, it helped if someone else stood in the doorway to the kitchen. Sam was too busy giving them the stink-eye to give too much thought to me messing with his ear.
 
MarianneZA said:
Thank you for the reply,

I also suspect that the dry/kibble prescription foods are not good either. I have been giving my cat the Fancy Feasts I managed to find and she has done well on them, but, as mentioned, they are disappearing from the shelves and as per the shop assistants they won't be getting it again.

Any advice from anyone that knows of a suitable alternative in South Africa will be appreciated.
Click to expand...


Is Friskies available in your area? I think the pates are suitable for diabetic kitties. There is a link on this site that lists suitable canned cat food for Misty. You might have something in your area on this list. If not there is a formula to figure out carbs. But not as accurate as this list is. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
 
MarianneZA said:
No luck, she is not having it.... I will keep on trying
Click to expand...


Just thought I would mention in case you don't know ...you can collect the blood from inside the ear. That's what we are doing now. Don't have the fur to deal with. It does make it more difficult. We also don't use the 'pen' or thing that holds the lancet now. did at first but found it easier without. Less noise. Just hold the lancet in our hand now. Completely understand how difficult it can be. Another thing which I have learned here...human lancets are smaller. (not sure what kind you have) I think my own lancets (One Touch) were gauge 30. Rupie's lancets (AlphaTrak2) are 28. Apparently the larger lancets are better than smaller lancets. btw this site is wonderful for helping others with diabetic kitties. Wealth of information and wisdom.
 
OneTouch UltraSoft lancets are 28 gauge (at least the ones I have, are); OneTouch Delicas are 30 gauge, Delicas can also be obtained in 33 gauge

I tried a generic brand lancet (colorful, came in pink and blue) which was 31 gauge, I had to prick three times to get even the tiny droplet my meter takes

Catcat was NOT happy :stop::eek::mad:
 
CandyH and Catcat said:
OneTouch UltraSoft lancets are 28 gauge (at least the ones I have, are); OneTouch Delicas are 30 gauge, Delicas can also be obtained in 33 gauge

I tried a generic brand lancet (colorful, came in pink and blue) which was 31 gauge, I had to prick three times to get even the tiny droplet my meter takes

Catcat was NOT happy :stop::eek::mad:
Click to expand...

I'm sure Catcat was not happy. Rupie always flicks his ear. I am thankful he is such a docile cat. Our other cat I'm sure would bite, or certainly not tolerate it. My Lancets are OneTouch Delicas. I'm right out of both lancets and glucose for my meter. If I had more of my own, I test Rupie. Perhaps the AlphaTrak meters require a smaller droplet.
 
Roops said:
I'm sure Catcat was not happy. Rupie always flicks his ear. I am thankful he is such a docile cat. Our other cat I'm sure would bite, or certainly not tolerate it. My Lancets are OneTouch Delicas. I'm right out of both lancets and glucose for my meter. If I had more of my own, I test Rupie. Perhaps the AlphaTrak meters require a smaller droplet.
Click to expand...

Thanks, she doesn't mind the prick... once I manage to get her to hold still... the problem is, I can't get her to stay put for it, haha.... and, the one time I did manage it, she refused to let me collect the the droplet. She doesn't have a problem with me touching her ears, she has a problem with me coming near her with anything she doesn't know.

Cats.....sigh, fortunately she is doing well, so I am being very patient and will keep on trying.
 
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