Oscar update, qs, and how long before twice dosing helps?

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Renee2602

Member Since 2024
Spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...41YVIvwAJVc5kyPgVZuuM6FeotXSRJ#gid=1303057560

Brief backstory: Pancreatitis, 11 years old from Melbourne Aus, 3 months into palliative care for a large pituitary adenoma, diabetes started once we increased prednisolone for brain inflammation.

Hi all. We have now increased Oscar's insulin toujeo from 5 units once daily to 3 units twice daily as of today. His internal medicine specialist has just informed us he will be away for the next month, which has us really anxious as we honestly don't know what position we will be in in a months time, given things are changing so rapidly in palliative care and we know he has declined a bit recently. We will still have the support from the other members in the internal medicine team but they don't know Oscar like our specialist does, and when they said over the phone 'it would take hours to read up on his history so we had a brief look' and didn't know how to answer my questions on cabergoline, it made me feel deflated. I've cried to Oscar's specialist several times, and he always brings me back to the big picture - is he eating, drinking, using the litterbox okay? And that has helped. He's never made me feel crazy for all my calls and questions and we check in every 3 days or so, so I'm just feeling a bit lost at the moment with him on leave for so long. Our local vet has told us we need to start considering quality of life since his vision loss has progressed and we are still trying to get the diabetes under control.

So an update and looking for advice please. We have just now switched from 5 units once daily to 3 units twice daily of toujeo, we do it with a solostar pen. He got his Libre off so we have no way to test him at home currently - this decision was made based on trying to maintain his quality of life with all the stress of poking and prodding at the moment. I have ordered a freestyle lite glucometer just in case though if we need to check urgently. Since he has never been low or even in normal range we are monitoring using ketodiastix, which have never showed anything below 3+ at all. We will likely look at getting another Libre placed but are trying to reduce the amount of vet visits for his stress, and want to give the skin time to heal before placing it in the same spot and we REALLY want to avoid shaving his other side.

How quickly would a cat adjust to going from 5 units once daily to 3 but twice daily with a glargine? I can tell he's struggling more tonight - urinating even more, sleeping next to his water fountain so he can keep drinking, much hungrier tonight, less comfortable. Both his urine sample before and after his second dose tonight came back 4+ glucose. Will it likely take a few days or are we risking things being to low a dose for him?

I'm also not sure if we are having issues with the solostar pen. My mum does the injections and we have not felt any wet fur and I didn't think I could smell insulin...until I realised what the insulin smells like and I have been smelling it all over his fur recently when I sniff him. When I pat him, my hand will be slightly sticky and smell like insulin. But as I said we don't feel any wet fur and the smell and sticky is still there even 12 hours after his injection. We thought we were injecting correctly but now we are worried. He also does whimper for a sec when the injection is done, I don't know if he's just gotten hypersensitive or if we should be concerned. My mum swears she is doing it in the skin of the scruff not the muscle.

Finally, the cabergoline arrived today. We aren't starting it for a few days since we just changed the insulin and don't want to change too many factors all at once. I did put it on some of his food to see if he would accept the taste and he didn't hate it but I'm not sure if he will regularly eat his food with it either, so I'm a bit nervous. We got it compounded chicken flavour but it doesn't smell very chicken-y. We add it to his plain chicken as he can't have any wet food due to his pancreatitis and ibd, so I don't know if there's any possible way to mask it. We really can't be forcing more medications down him at the moment. At the moment we are also starting on 0.7ml where 100mcg = 1ml, 48 hours dosing...I know daily has been more effective but with our specialist on leave I'm not sure what the plan was for increasing frequency. We don't exactly have the time to wait and see but with his history of GI issues I also don't want to trigger that and am quite nervous at the moment.

Other questions I have:
- Is a cat considered in DKA if a urine test comes back as 1+ for ketones?
- Will a cat with diabetes keep losing weight until the diabetes is completely stable or does weight loss usually only happen in the ketone stage where they have no insulin yet?
-Will liver values in a cat keep being concerning if their glucose is high but they are receiving insulin and negative for ketones?

Thank you
 
Anything above trace on a urine ketone testing strip is a concern. Not sure how 1+ relates to that. Are you home testing for ketones? DKA is more than just ketones. As per this post, elevated ketones can indicate the beginning of DKA: Ketones, Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA), and Blood Ketone Meters

Weight loss will happen in unregulated cats. I find this post to be a good description of what is happening inside: What is Feline Diabetes?

As for the Toujeo questions, we don't have much experience with that here, so not sure we can help with the dosing questions. Without a spreadsheet and testing data, we really can't help. I can say that some people have reported injections from a pen are more uncomfortable to the cat than syringes. Most of us use syringes here. We typically also increase/decrease in smaller changes than you can do for a pen. Unfortunately there aren't U-300 syringes available so that's not an option for you. Is your mom rotating the spot on the scruff where she injects?

For the insulin smell, are you holding the pen in for 5-10 seconds? If not, you risk not getting all the insulin in. Would it help to havet the vet or a tech watch how you are doing injections? Are you priming the pen each time? If not, that can also result in a smaller dose being given.
 
Sorry, I should have clarified. I was asking about ketones as back about a month ago his urine was positive for ketones but it hasn't been on any recent urine strips. I just wasn't sure if ketones and dka are the same thing.

I guess my concern with weight loss is... will he just keep losing weight until he's skin and bones? With the steroid and tumour I'm not sure if we will get him to maintaining a weight and I'm worried. We have increased his food intake but I've had conflicting advice - been told to be strict on feeding him so many grams only so many times a day. But if he's hungry I just feed him... I'm not going to deny him his love of food right now.

Yes my mum says she tries to rotate the spot to not do the same each time. She has been holding it for 5secs but I will ask her to count to 10. If I can, next time we go to the vet I will see if they can watch how mum does it... or maybe I should try sending a video would that be good enough? We were told the pen only needed to be primed once when first opening a brand new pen and then it is ok to go, I specifically asked this as I thought it may have to be primed each time. I'm so confused now...and I just read the toujeo human pamphlet instructions and it says to do a safety test EVERY TIME.

Ok I think my plan tomorrow will be to film my mum doing the injection to send that in and ask about priming every time. But I see no harm in starting to prime right away either and asking her to hold for 10 seconds. I am quite frustrated now as we just had the libre on for 2 weeks, constantly going higher doses and I didn't realise if something was being done wrong. Now we don't have the Libre on and if we start doing it correctly I'm worried he may go hypo.

Do you know of any other reason he would have the insulin smell on him?

I understand there's not much experience with toujeo, but from other glargine insulins used, how long would it take to see an improvement?

Thank you
 
Feed the amount you need to get him to the weight goal you want. If that means he needs to gain weight, feed him more. For cats overweight, reduce the food. Unregulated cats cannot properly process the nutrition from their food, so you may need to supplement with more food, especially if underweight.
Do you know of any other reason he would have the insulin smell on him?
I can think of three reasons. One, if there is insulin on the pen needle itself and it rubs his skin. Note, this is more likely with syringes as people adjust the dose themselves and remove insulin from the syringe, possibly leaving a drop on the syringe needle. Second reason is that the end of the pen needle is going out the other side of the tent. Again, more likely with longer syringe needles. Third, squirmy cat makes you withdraw the pen needle/syringe too early and you are still put in the dose.

Maybe ask the pharmacist/chemist who sold you the Toujeo how it should be operated regarding priming each time. My local pharmacist knew more about Lantus that did my vet - who hadn't had much experience with it.
understand there's not much experience with toujeo, but from other glargine insulins used, how long would it take to see an improvement?
Lantus and Levemir are the two long lasting depot style insulins we have experience with here. Both have similar profiles, the main difference begin when the insulin onsets and nadirs. The only glargine insulins we've used here are biosimilar (to Lantus) glargine generic insulins, so the same profile as Lantus. There have been a few people who have used Tresiba, but no one has posted since 2020. I'm not sure I could even find more than a couple Toujeo spreadsheets for you to look at to try to figure it out for yourself.
 
Thank you Bron, we have got the cabergoline from bova pharmacy. Unfortunately I looked into southpaws but they say they don't have a linear accelerator and are unlikely to do radiation on brain tumours, but I have sent an enquiry anyway. I think vets here will do the acro test but it will take 4 weeks to come back. We don't know if we have 4 weeks. We are going to start cabergoline anyway. While it would be good to know his IGF values etc, I'm not sure it would change what we are doing. We are losing to this tumour, he is starting to become really tired a lot and does seem more confused. We can only increase the insulin so quickly and have only started the cabergoline now. I will still bring it up the next time he goes in for a blood test if we make it that far. Thank you for your help, I am starting to feel hopeless and I know we will have to make some really difficult decisions soon but it helps to have people supporting us.
 
I’m so sorry it is so difficult for you and Oscar.
that is strange they said they don’t do radiation as we had someone from Melbourne who went there with their cat and said they did do SRT.
It is so hard feeling hopeless. I am hoping the carbergoline helps.
Please keep us in the loop when you have time :bighug:
 
I’m so sorry it is so difficult for you and Oscar.
that is strange they said they don’t do radiation as we had someone from Melbourne who went there with their cat and said they did do SRT.
It is so hard feeling hopeless. I am hoping the carbergoline helps.
Please keep us in the loop when you have time :bighug:
Thank you. Unfortunately I got this response back today:


“Unfortunately, there are no hospitals in Victoria that offer stereotactic radiation therapy, the closest would be SASH in Sydney. They also have a team performing hypophysectomy for these tumours at SASH as well.”

it may be that they perform radiation for other tumours in other parts of the body but sadly not an option here.
 
Thanks for letting me know. It is very strange as I was told by someone who was using it that it was so! Very strange
I know they do it in Sydney at SASH
Thanks.
 
If you are able to get in touch with the person who said they are having it done, that might provide some answers. I’m not sure it would change our outcome unfortunately but I appreciate you trying.

Oscar has had 3 doses of cabergoline so far and doesn’t seem to be reacting with vomiting though he is only having it every 48hrs. He won’t eat it on food even though it’s chicken flavoured…the smell is too strong. I have managed to mix it with tuna spring water and he enjoys that. He is having more sloppy poos and just missing the litter tray (which I’m not counting as poor litterbox activity) but this could be due to so many different things- cabergoline, constipation from the tumour or drugs he’s on, antivirals. We are getting concerned about quality of life. We don’t know if he’s in pain. He seems to perk up in sunnier/warmer weather and really his whole world is about food at the moment. It’s so hard to know what is the tumour and what is the diabetes because we may be able to eventually treat the diabetes. His specialist is away for another 3 weeks and I am very nervous. Very hard to determine what is behaviour due to pain or being depressed vs the tumour itself. For example, he does more of a whiny meow now since the tumour but we don’t know if that’s due to pain or that’s just how his meow sounds now. He’s very very tired at times and sometimes sleeps wherever he is, I don’t know if this is the diabetes, cold, hyperthyroid, or the tumour.
 
Can you put the car ergo line in an empty capsule? I did that with tramadol which is very bitter. You can buy capsules online. You would need to buy the smaller ones which I think from memory have the higher numbers.
I’ll have to try and find the name of the caregiver who told me the info about SRT etc.
 
Can you put the car ergo line in an empty capsule? I did that with tramadol which is very bitter. You can buy capsules online. You would need to buy the smaller ones which I think from memory have the higher numbers.
I’ll have to try and find the name of the caregiver who told me the info about SRT etc.
We got it compounded into liquid so I think we will try to stick with that for now. I hope the tuna juice isn’t making him feel unwell. He has to have it with his Metamucil as well as he won’t eat Metamucil on other food.
 
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