Orange has a spreadsheet now!

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Julie & Orange

Julie & Orange

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I set up a spreadsheet for Orange.

There aren't too many data points yet as I am trying to get used to this, but I don't really like what the numbers are saying so far. Over 500 for the past 3 tests (at or near pre shot). Which is higher than his previous readings at the vets office before going on insulin (230 and 430). I'll try doing a reading at +6 today.

One thing I realized as I'm reading through all this info is how I am giving the injections is probably not ideal. The vet had showed me to just stick it in his side - no tenting his skin or anything. If its hititng muscle maybe its wearing off too soon? I will try tenting his skin next shot.

We have an appointment in 2 days to check on how he is doing and discuss changing his dose. Am I on the right track until then? Or should I do something else about these high readings?
 
Before this all started both the cats were eating Hills C/D dry food since my other kitty, Charlie, had crystals and a urinary tract infection once. They each got 1/4 cup twice a day.

The vet had me switch them to EVO dry food and said to leave it out all the time to keep the blood sugar fairly level. I think its dissapearing at a much faster rate than when they were on meals - Orange tends to overeat. (and I suspect the dog may be jumping up on the table and stealing some)

I'm also trying to introduce wet food, but Orange hasn't wanted to touch wet food every time I've tried to give it to him since he was a kitten. I'm trying a few different flavors to see if there are any that he likes - so far Purina DM, EVO, Friskies special diet. Charlie thought the DM and Friskies were the best thing in the world, but did not like the EVO. With Orange right now though, I'm working on getting him to take a few bites of the wet food each day by putting some dry food on top.
 
Good am to you.
Have you thought of adding a bit of tuna or sardine juice? Or some fora flora? I found a vet that would let me buy 1 packet instead of a whole box as it is a bit pricey.
I have also found some frz dried duck & lamb (was in the doggie section at Marshalls feed store) that I grind in my magic bullet to powder and sprinkled a bit on top. I wanted to get something else that was not fish. My Civie Slappy is soooo picky and I found that little thing LOVES it.
I have to find something that all 3 will eat and Sugar Bean can sneak from that is low or no carbs.
 
I am so glad you are testing and have the ss up... it looks great!

Now, despite Orange eating the hi carb dry food, look at that yellow you got on the 3rd day of Lantus.
If you are getting in the 200s on the 1u BID even with the dry food, you want to be careful on raising the dose.

When did you switch to the different dry food? Those 500s are horrible looking but at least you now know how Orange is really doing.

How much of the wet is he eating? Are you grinding up the dry food into a powder form? It would be great if you can flatten the wet food on a plate, the sprinkle a lite coating of the dry food in powder form... that way, Orange would have to eat a fair amount of the wet food to get that dry powder.

Also, the Forti Flora is a good thing to try. I know my Shadoe was quite spoiled and often gave me looks like, "What? No sprinkles?" Just a tiny sprinkle of the Forti flora on her food and she was a happy girlie.

The other is freeze dried chicken crumbled up, and some people have had luck with parmesan cheese.
Once he's eating a bit of the wet, you can start to increase the wet and decrease the dry sprinkles.
 
Isn't even the dry EVO low carb? I know its not as good as wet food, but most importantly I want him to keep eating something and I thought the EVO would lessen his carbs compared to the old food.

I'll try grinding it and look into Forti Flora. I've just been putting whole pieces on top of the wet food. So far he's been picking out the pieces and getting just a few licks worth of wet food down in the process.

We switched him to Purina DM dry food 2 days before he started inulin while we were waiting for the bloodwork to come back, but he didn't like that very much so we switched him to EVO the day we started injections.
 
jules3304 said:
Isn't even the dry EVO low carb? I know its not as good as wet food, but most importantly I want him to keep eating something and I thought the EVO would lessen his carbs compared to the old food.

I'll try grinding it and look into Forti Flora. I've just been putting whole pieces on top of the wet food. So far he's been picking out the pieces and getting just a few licks worth of wet food down in the process.

We switched him to Purina DM dry food 2 days before he started inulin while we were waiting for the bloodwork to come back, but he didn't like that very much so we switched him to EVO the day we started injections.
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The EVO is lower carb, but many diabetic cats (including my own) still are sensitive to the carbohydrates in that form. Dry food must use some sort of starchy binder to keep the food together, which carb-sensitive cats react to. Bandit can eat a grain free canned food at 8% carbs with no problem, but if I give him a handful of EVO, his blood sugar will rise. Have you seen this page yet? Hopefully you'll be able to find something that works so you can get him on canned only.

Also, if your other cat has urinary tract issues, getting rid of the dry will help solve that problem. Many vets focus on urinary pH for those problems, when the real culprit is chronic dehydration from dry diets. Check out this page for more info: http://catinfo.org/#Cystitis_.

It's hard to say what is going on right now without those mid-cycle checks. I know you're just getting in the swing of testing, but that is how we see how much the insulin is working. When cats first start insulin, their bodies are used to the high numbers, so when they get a normal-ish number (even something in the 100s or 200s), their livers will dump glucose into their bloodstreams as a defense mechanism for the perceived "low" number. Which is why preshots don't tell you the whole story with the insulin. These "bounces" can last up to 72 hrs, so that's why daily testing is so important. Let us know if there's any more advice we can give you to help you out with testing. I'm not sure if you so my response on your other thread with some more tips: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=67006.

If you would like to read more about the dosing protocol that is recommended for Lantus, check out this sticky: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581
 
I had thought the EVO dry was somewhere around 18%carb or higher, so it's for sure going to contribute to higher numbers.

If Orange is quite carb sensitive, you could see a drastic rise. My Shadoe could jump to 400s and 500s from just a few pieces; she could not have any dry food or any dry treats.
 
ohbell said:
Or some fora flora? I found a vet that would let me buy 1 packet instead of a whole box as it is a bit pricey.
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Forti Flora :smile: Vets sell the product. You can also buy it online at various places like PetFooDirect.com and some other pet supply places and at Amazon.com


Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
I had thought the EVO dry was somewhere around 18%carb or higher, so it's for sure going to contribute to higher numbers
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Innova EVO dry is 8% carbs. It's on Binky's dry food chart, http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html

While it has less carbs than many other brands of dry food and one of the "recommended" foods to use to transition a diabetic to canned food, it can still keep blood gluocse levels too high.

Does your cat seem to like a particular texture of canned food? Some like pate/loaf while others will only eat chunks/slices/shredded/etc. Have you seen the newer food list? There are brands listed there that aren't on Binky's charts.
 
Thanks, I haven't seen that newer list!

I think all the canned foods I've tried so far have been pate (mushy) style. I was going off of Binky's list and only trying flavors with less than 10% carbs (for Orange) and less than 250 mg phosphorus per 100 calories (for Charlie). That doesn't leave a very long list. Do you think Charlie would be ok with kinds that have more phosphorus?
 
jules3304 said:
Thanks, I haven't seen that newer list!

I think all the canned foods I've tried so far have been pate (mushy) style. I was going off of Binky's list and only trying flavors with less than 10% carbs (for Orange) and less than 250 mg phosphorus per 100 calories (for Charlie). That doesn't leave a very long list. Do you think Charlie would be ok with kinds that have more phosphorus?
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Does Charlie have renal insufficiency? How old is he?

You might want to try something chunkier if that's what they like. Merrick's 5 star entrees are a little chunkier than your average pate style food, and there are several low carb, low phosphorus options. The Grammy's Pot Pie and Surf and Turf flavors are favorites with my friend's cat who won't eat pate style foods. There's some other chunky suggestions in this thread: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=55149&hilit=+chunky

One very important thing to note if you're looking at phosphorus content is that you don't want to use the values on Binky's list, because they are outdated. Carb content pretty much stays the same, but phosphorus content can change radically over time, and things that used to be low phosphorus can become incredibly high in phosphorus, like EVO 95% venison. Here's a more current food list of premium foods, including phos content: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Uu8g1u8Su9YTgxNGE1MDItM2MyMC00Y2Y3LWI4ODMtMzhkYTkxOGM4NThk/edit
 
Charlie is actually Orange's litter mate (and a girl - I know, boys name). She is 7 yrs old. She hasn't had any other problems except once a few yrs ago she was straining to pee and found out she had crystals and a UTI. At that time we had switched them to Hills C/D dry, and haven't had any problems with her since. I'll try give Merrick a try.
 
jules3304 said:
Charlie is actually Orange's litter mate (and a girl - I know, boys name). She is 7 yrs old. She hasn't had any other problems except once a few yrs ago she was straining to pee and found out she had crystals and a UTI. At that time we had switched them to Hills C/D dry, and haven't had any problems with her since. I'll try give Merrick a try.
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If she's only 7 and has no kidney issues, then you don't need to be concerned about phosphorus content. Phosphorus is important for cats with renal disease, or kitties above the age of 12 (because renal disease is very common among older cats and not generally detected until they've lost about 75% of their renal function, feeding higher quality protein, lower phosphorus foods is a good measure to help prevent further loss of function at the earliest stages). You might want to stay away from things that are ridiculously high in phosphorus (400+), but other than that you can feed any low carb canned food--since the main cause of UT issues is chronic dehydration, mixing a little water in with her food will keep her properly hydrated and prevent further problems.
 
Welcome to the club. There are lots of us newbies around here too.

You do have to be careful of Evo dry and crystals - depending what type of crystals. Early on in the days of diabetes I also switched my cats to Evo dry to reduce carbs (used to get half wet/half dry). My non diabetic cat promptly got crystals (struvite or triple phosphate) and his vet said that Evo dry can be bad for that. Depends on the cat of course. We switched UTD kitty to CD dry/wet but it was too much of a pain because he couldn't eat Neko's food and she couldn't eat his and diabetic kitty Neko is a standing member of the Clean Plate Club.

Next step was to convert both cats to all wet, which was better, but still required some supervision at dinner. Both kitties are now on raw which is what the vet recommended would work for both of them. I still add water to both their meals. It's been 2 weeks of all raw and fingers crossed it is still working for both of them. It was a long process from part dry to all wet. The non diabetic kitty was especially fond of his dry food. All the pages others have referenced were especially helpful for me.
 
Sounds like this thread is offering many suggestions! :smile:
You might try a phosphorus blocker - if there is a need. My Gumpy (GA) was put on a phosphorus blocker with her foods. We were just in the process of adding when she went to the bridge :sad:
But, I believe the phosphorus blocker idea came from the folks here and not the vet. I asked the vet, and she says - sure, we can try that - HELLO ohmygod_smile
Anyway, something you might want to consider if you find that you need to.
 
Some great suggestions on the food changes. Wet low carb food is much better for diabetic kitties. Try to transition. Even pouring tuna juice over wet food might work. Or adding some raw meat to it.

And glad you are now tenting and shooting. That's the way to do it. Lots of videos on you tube on testing and shooting too. Very helpful.

Watch the PS (pre-shot) numbers. And check sporadically in between shots when you can, so you can see where your cat goes. Your kitty might be fluctuating alot (see that pretty yellow in your ss?) when you're not looking. Check out some of the other kitties ss and you will see how often others are testing. Of course, do it as your schedule allows.

And, keep reading all the sticky's on this site. Post all your questions. Consume chocolate and wine as needed. And of course give extra lovin' scritches to Orange.
 
ohbell said:
Sounds like this thread is offering many suggestions! :smile:
You might try a phosphorus blocker - if there is a need. My Gumpy (GA) was put on a phosphorus blocker with her foods. We were just in the process of adding when she went to the bridge :sad:
But, I believe the phosphorus blocker idea came from the folks here and not the vet. I asked the vet, and she says - sure, we can try that - HELLO ohmygod_smile
Anyway, something you might want to consider if you find that you need to.
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Since Charlie does not have CKD, it's not necessary to worry about phosphorus levels, and most certainly a phosphorus blocker isn't needed.
 
Ha, so what your telling me is that I haven't needed that expensive perscription dry food all these years, and that even the cheap generic Walmart canned food would have been better for them?

Why didn't you tell me this 4 years ago? :)
 
Julie & Orange said:
Ha, so what your telling me is that I haven't needed that expensive perscription dry food all these years, and that even the cheap generic Walmart canned food would have been better for them?

Why didn't you tell me this 4 years ago? :)
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Yup, and yup. There is nearly always a better commercial canned alternative for prescription diets for nearly every condition because the ailments that require nutritional therapy are all pretty much caused by dry food. In my opinion, the one exception is canned Hills A/D--that stuff is a life saver for anorexic cats.


I wish someone had told me the same thing 5 years ago--I'm pretty sure the vet prescribed Hills W/D (37% carbs) and vet recommended Hills Science Diet Light (40% carbs) are what Bandit's diabetes. And my former vet was one of the creators of Hills Science and Prescription diets, so I thought Bandit was getting expert nutrition advice. ohmygod_smile


http://catinfo.org/#Prescription_Diets_and_Marketing_Labels
 
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