On ProZinc since 4/2/11

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Darlene & Jack

Darlene & Jack

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Hi everyone...just looking for a little guidance. My Jack (will be 9 in May) was diagnosed with diabetes on 4/1/11 and was in DKA and had a UTI. Just made the switch to all wet food, Fancy Feast Classic and he is on ProZinc. I started home monitoring right away after reading all of your posts on here. There was an issue with the syringes and dosages being given incorrectly the first day. So that is straightened out and we are doing 1.5 units (vet had ordered 2 un). Just looking for any advice based on my spreadsheet and Jack's numbers. He has 3 more days of antibiotics for the UTI left. He is acting great now, feeling much better and so cooperative.
Thanks in advance!
 
Question: has anyone had a thought as to why he responded as he did on his first dose of .8u?
The numbers following that could be rebound unless there is a better reason. It's early enough to catch it if it is.
I know we have a fresh DKA here so it's a bit scary.
Sooooo, what's the story with the first set of numbers? Was he being shot prior to this with no testing?
Lori
and tomtom
 
Hi Darlene,

Glad you came over. I post on both forums but really enjoy our friendly little group here.

Lori, Jack is the one whose vet included the U100 needles with the U40 needles and Darlene used them the first day. She had planned to give the prescribed 2 units but gave .8 with the U100 needles.

Lori is thinking it could be that it is too much insulin, not too little but agree the DKA makes it a little more tricky. Darlene, we are wondering if you should go down to that dose where you got the lower numbers and see if that brings his numbers down. You would want to be testing for ketones if you consider that and getting some bg tests in that day also. Right now you are gone all day and your daughter does the nadir test, right? Any day soon when you will be home all day?
 
He had been at the vets overnight where he was getting IV hydration, antibiotics and being started on the insulin. So my guess is that he may have had more on board than 2 units from earlier in the day. I brought him home about 3:30 in the afternoon after he had been at the vets for 24 hours. He had his first dose at 8:30pm (whish was when the vets office told me he was due) and then my first test after I went and got the supplies was about 10:30pm. I'm just glad there was a dosing error and that he didn't actually receive the full 2 units as was ordered. The vet did not tell me to home test, but I followed all of your advice instead and was glad I did.
 
Thanks for looking at the numbers. I can be home on Saturday or Sunday to do all day testing. During the week I work but my daughter has been doing a +3 and +6 testing. I could have her do some more frequent testing if you think his dose is too high so we can try that before the weekend.
 
So he had 2 units the day before and then in the am before he came home that night and got .8. That changes the picture a bit. It may not have been that the .8 was responsible for the lower numbers but may also have been the 2 units earlier in the day.

Hmmmmmm. In that case, I don't think a reduction may be the answer but it is too soon to tell. I would continue with your dose for a few more cycles, let the wet lo carb do its job and see what we get.

PZI doesn't have a protocol - not a strict "if you get this number, you shoot this". There are some general guidelines, but it's based more on how an individual kitty reacts to a given dose over time. That's why the numbers are so important.
 
It would be helpful - any numbers your daughter can get - particularly early in the cycle. Numbers 2-3 hours after the shot can be helpful. And anything around 4-6.
 
well let's see. if jack got 2u's that morning...and then .8u that evening....hmmm, those are some pretty low numbers. even if said 2u was carrying over (which is still up in the air) i find that first day to be very telling.
if you do choose a dose we always like to stick with it for a little while when your brand new becuase things can change after kitty gets accustomed.
let's say you go off the AB's in 3 days. that could change his dosing if the infection is cleared up. as a matter of fact i'd be surprised if it has'nt already affected his numbers.

Let's at least all keep in mind that it is possible that Jack is receiving a bit too much insulin rather than too little.
the testing right now will be EXTRA important as he goes off the antibiotics k?

Glad to have you on PZ Island :-D

lori
and tomtom
 
hey who gave you the syringes? if it was the vet maybe jack really only go .8 there too? just sayin...some vets make these kinds of mistakes. he should have made it clear to you which syringes to use.
 
New numbers...

106 @ +3
59@ +4

He just ate some wet food after the 59 reading. Would you advise dry food now too? I will stay up to do +5 and +6 numbers.

I hadn't thought that maybe the vet gave the incorrect dose too. It was the vet tech who went over the syringes and dosage with me. But like you said, maybe they used the wrong ones too. When they gave them to me the 100 un ones were on top and he said they were all the same. I was kind of overwhelmed with everything when I got home so I didn't really look to see that the PZ was 40 un/ml and that those syringes were really different.
I did just pick up some more of the 100un syringes and printed out the conversion chart so that I can measure smaller doses more accurately. The poor pharmacist at Walgreen's thought I was crazy when I was trying to explain that they were for my diabetic cat and I needed the smaller syringes to adjust the dose. hahaha
 
i'm here, west coast if you'll be needing me. i am really wondering what the dose actually was to begin with....and now we can say this dose is too high. that is to fast and hard a fall.
 
or syrup and yogurt? that works. and not time yet to do anything.
 
I could do without the "crash" part!!

So now he is 95@ +5

I have the syrup and Karo syrup at home. I need to get some higher carb wet food to keep on hand though. What kind is best? I think I read FF with gravy, maybe?

Any thoughts on a morning dosage?
 
well if it were me i'd slide back to 1u. now i know what y'all are thinking. DKA kitty right? but everything on this chart so far...and there is'nt much grant you...says a word i am loath to say, which is paniced liver and rebound.
that is what i'm seeing anyway.
why not start the old fashion way and do 1u for a week. track the numbers. check for ketones. and post each day.
 
Ff with gravy is good to have around. Mark it as HC so you don't feed it by mistake.

His nadir was a little earlier than last time. Interesting. I would take one more test to make sure he continues to head up.

Since the wet lo carb is new, I think I would be cautious and go back to one unit. I wonder if the lower numbers at night will be a consistent pattern.
 
and if ya think about it that first dose of .8 with a +2 82. well either a verra verra low # was shot into....or a verra fast drop. either way...to me, THAT is the data to be banking on.
 
I will definitely do one more reading tonight then get to bed!

1 unit in the morning will be the plan then. I will pick up some of the other FF tomorrow to keep on hand. Just went over with my daughter the syrup, etc. She said she will check his readings more often for me tomorrow. I don't know if I can get urine on him...any suggestions on how to collect? I don't think he would like it if I tried to stick my hand in the litter box to catch his stream!

And again, I can't thank you ladies enough...I don't know how I could even attempt to manage this on my own! You are so wonderful to give up so much of your time to help all of us. It is truly appreciated. And our little kitties thank you too!
 
Once a cat starts to go, they won't stop. Some people can run in and stick a strip in the urine stream. Oliver wouldn't even go in the box if we were watching. So we filled a litter box with aquarium gravel (you can use torn paper or even lentils) and left him in a room with it. That was the only way we could get a sample.
 
yes that seems to be the case about once the stream starts they cannot stop it. was'nt it deb415 who told you the story about locking herself in the bathroom with her kitty :lol:
anyway, if you do see a pee coming and wait till he starts and have the stick ready...slide it under, get a drop or so on the stick and you got it!!!

and Darlene we ALL came here as newbie's. we all were completely overwhelmed and confused and afraid. most of us stayed to pass along all the stuff we learned. we became sort of like a family. it is really a priviledge to help another 'one of our own' and believe me, once your a sugar kitties mom...you will ALWAYS have a family of cat lovers here to walk with you thru everything.
Welcome to the sugar dance....and remember ;-) Jack leads.
cat_pet_icon
lori
and tomtom
 
hmmm, saw on your chart that Jack ate some wet food after the 59 reading. what exactly did he eat? and nice that he's surfing the greens. i thought he was on his way up.
 
Just my two cents after going through a fourth DKA in less than 6 months. We are starting to make friends with the ketone meter, which measures ketones in the blood serum. Using it with the urine strips, which measure ketones in the urine. There is much talk about which is better ..... I say two is better than one! I need all the information I can get, I may even start reading her PH soon :)

All cats are different but Payne and I make a game out of getting a strip under her pee. We took the tops off the litter boxes, moved them behind some fencing with a gate (for us) with a stool for the cats to get over. We keep the strip bottle on the side, out of the sun and after she eats, she always goes :) If I get there first she won't come but if I wait for her to jump the fence, the clock is ticking!! Can I get through the gate, get a strip out and get it under her stream before she is done! if I can she will let me ..... also sometimes, if you really need a reading, you can carry the cat to the box, gently put them down and if you have lined up three boxes for the cat to wander through, she just might stop and go. Of course, during all this you must be prepared by getting out the bottle, taking out a strip ........

Take a deep breath, it will all work out but you need to watch the signs .... cat usually stops eating, throws off ketones, is lethargic and looks like ****. I have said that if Payne stops eating, the moment she stops, we are at the vet. You are where you need to be and where you never wanted to be.
Nancy and Payne (slept in the sun today .... life is good :)
the fencing around the litter boxes keeps the dogs out, you know dogs and litter ....
 
Good morning all! Lori, when Jack ate after the 59 reading he had maybe an ounce of FF Classic.

AMPS 428 today, gave him 1 unit
I'll have my daughter check him hourly for +2 - +6 readings.

Thanks for the support Lori, it is wonderful to have this new little family of cat lovers! And thank you all for the pee tips! I know my daughter won't attempt that, but I will try to get it if I can. Nancy, I hope Payne is doing better....4 DKA's in 6 months is scary!
 
Good dose this am, Darlene. It seemed like a high number, but we can't be sure whether it is a bounce from the lower numbers last night. His body is used to the higher numbers, so when he gets a series of "normal range" numbers, his liver may decide he needs a little more sugar and supply it.

It will be nice when we can get a couple cycles of those normal numbers to see what his body really is doing with the insulin. :-D
 
Excellent numbers today!!! Rachel fell back asleep and missed the +2 reading, but got all the rest. :-)

+3 185
+4 148
+5 123
+6 159

Will check his PMPS in about an hour.
 
It's that "every cat is different" thing. Patience, patience. Someone wise once said that this sugar dance is a marathon, not a sprint. So true....
 
Just stoppin in to say hi and compliment you and Jack on that lovely curve today!
He is a very handsome dude too :)
cat_pet_icon
 
Thanks Sue...i will try to be patient!! :-)

Hi Donna...thanks for saying hello and admiring Jack's lovely curve today! Let's hope we don't get the crash again tonight! And thank you for his compliment, he is very handsome, and very sweet and lovable. I LOVE your pic of your cats! I assume you took it yourself...just beautiful!
 
Just wanted to say hello and welcome. I'm sure you're already figuring out that you've come to the best place for help with your diabetic cat. I knew next to nothing at first and was overwhelmed and stressed. This forum and following the great advice/protocol really helped me turn my cat Max's health around. Nice blue numbers today for Jack. With the recent diagnosis and DKA, he could just be bouncey. You are so lucky to have such a wonderful daughter to help you test. In the beginning especially, the more data the better as you learn how the insulin works on Jack. Wishing you good numbers tomorrow.
 
Thanks so much for the warm welcome Holly! I am sooooo thankful to have found this site and all of you wonderful angels! And I am very lucky that my daughter is home now to test Jack during the day. She loves him so much and is very willing to help with him.

So Jack bounced very high this morning, 498. I was able to catch him in the litter box just as I got up this morning, and was able to catch a drop of urine...trace ketones. He is usually good with his shot but this morning he flinched away a bit, so I am hoping he got the full shot since he was so high this morning. If he still has a very high number at the +3 mark, is it best to try to give a little more or just let it go and monitor? I could prefill a syringe, but my daughter has never done the injection.
 
Good morning!

You might want to start a new thread and repost your morning questions. You have some valid concerns--trace ketones & "giving more". I would hate for the comments to get lost in the large thread.

Someone more qualified than me will answer-- but I would be scared to inject additional insulin at + 3.

Also, my Kitty has suffered from DKA. Please keep a check on the ketones. Someone will tell you how concerned you need to be with trace amounts--the only advice I have is to continue to test frequently. Ketones are nothing to take lightly.

Wishing you the best!

Kim
 
Not a good combination, Darlene. But scary to give any more as early as +3 until you see some numbers. He went in the blues yesterday....

Can you get +2 and +3 and if it is clearly staying up in the 400 range, you could try .5 unit. Add water to the food and get another ketone test. They are nothing to mess around with(as you know). Off to the vet if anymore than a trace.

The trouble with a fur shot is that you can't be sure how much went in and you don't want to overdose. Keep us updated.
 
Darlene be sure to administer plenty of fluids. you can add water to his food and stir into a bit of a gravy. it helps.
 
Darlene, it is NOW you need to be careful ...... you have a cat that just came out of DKA and had an infection and is running hot ..... if he quits eating, you need to take him to the vet right away! Right after a DKA you are at danger of going back into it if the right combination happens, and what you are describing can be serious. You need to sit on his ketones, they can't go too high. How does he look? is he eating? Let us know.
Nancy and Payne
 
So Jack's morning numbers were good today after this mornings high...

+3 205
+4 164
+6 180

PMPS back up to 478. I just got home a little while ago so haven't been able to check ketones. He has been eating well and since starting on the wet food I do add at least half a can of water to each can of food. He is bright eyed, perky, seems to be feeling well. Has about 2 doses left of the antibiotic.

Do you think the high PS numbers are still rebounding? How can I get those numbers down?
 
I have 3 cats and I did try to separate them to eat the first day or 2, but that didn't work well. Jack likes to eat a little at a time more frequently. First thing in the morning after his shot (6am) he eats a 3 oz can and I mix in at least 1/2 can of water, or maybe a little more. I put out 3 cans and they all eat. Usually there is still some food left by the time I leave at 7. A few days I did put another can out when I left for work, mixed with more water than usual. Around noon, his +6 time my daughter puts out another can or 2 and Jack probably eats a half to a full can. Usually the food dish is empty by 2 or 3pm and I check his PMPS about 5:30 or 6. Then I put 3 cans out again, he eats at least one pretty quickly at that time. Then later in the evening I usually put out another can and he eats small amounts from that. So he seems to be eating between 3-4 cans per day, all mixed with extra water in them.
My concern at first had been that he was a free feeder and I didn't think he would do well with just a twice a day feed. Many on here had said they free feed still, and I read some of the articles. So I'm not sure if maybe the timing is off, if he's getting too much, too little, etc.
 
Hopefully it will all become clear in time. :mrgreen: I like free feeding, especially in the beginning, to support the pancreas. It sounds like he is getting plenty to eat during the day. Is he overweight or at a good weight or does he need to gain?

So he doesn't eat overnight? There is a possibility that might help keep your amps lower. Some people use an automatic feeder and set it to go off one or more times during the night. Other people freeze the food and leave it out to thaw. Is there a way you could do that for him but not for all the cats (unless you want to..) You might the overnight feeding for a few nights to see if it makes a difference in your amps. (You wouldn't add to the amount, just take the total amount you want him to eat and divide it into the number of feedings you will give).

Our job is to work with the variables, try to get a good dose and keep the ketones away. And also we have the infection and antibiotic in the mix. Juggling all this may take a while.

I know it seems like forever, but you have only been at this less than a week. Think how far you have come.
 
He had been overweight and is now 12 pounds. One or two nights I had put out food around midnight because he seemed so hungry, i think those were the first few nights. It all such a blur by now! I will try to put some out at night, I wasn't sure if that was ok to do or not. I can try freezing some and leaving it out to thaw overnight. How long does it take to thaw out? Just trying to figure out what time to put it out.
 
Nice #'s today. Yay Jack! I feed Max a snack during the night cause I noticed it seemed to help his numbers, usually when I get up to go to the um bathroom (about +6...seems like good timing ;-) ).
 
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