Not to shoot under 200?

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jmason7

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Ok, my understanding from reading alot of posts on here is that you do not shoot if you get a BG reading under 200. Well, I went and saw my vet and she loved the fact that I was home testing, pulled away the dry food, etc BUT she did not agree with not shooting with a reading under 200. She said that I should only not shoot if I get a reading under 70 (ish). She said 200 is still really high and then you give food which pushes it higher after a feeding and then if your cat is not going to get a chance at more insulin until 12hours later ( my cat is on Prozinc). Everything she said made sense to me. she said if I get a reading of 100 I should back down to half the normal dose but that they should still get a little bit to get them til their next testing period. Can you give me some thoughts on this and where the 200 number comes from?


Thanks!
 
The 200 is just a good place to start before you have experience. As you gain experience with mrre BGs the you can likely lower the cutoff point. This evening I gave my Smokey his standard 2.4 units of Lantus with a BG of 118.

Note from Rebecca: Please be careful about giving this much insulin with a BG of 118, especially for newbies who don't have enough dosing consistency or data points to know if their cat with a NORMAL glucose of 118 can tolerate any insulin, much less 2.5 units.
 
The 200 limit is generally for new diabetics. Once you have the data that shows you how your cat reacts to varying doses, you can lower that. For instance, if you shoot one unit at 230 and he generally comes down to 100 at nadir but not lower, then you could be a little more daring and try the one unit at 200. With ProZinc we do shoot in the 150 - 170 range when the cat is in lower numbers, may be having longer cycles and getting low doses, usually under .5 units. We call it mini dosing. But it is only when you have the data to help you predict what will happen.

I do think your vet's advice about shooting insulin at 100 is dangerous with ProZinc. Some people using the tight regulation methods with the longer lasting insulin like Lantus may shoot at at numbers 100 and lower, but not with ProZinc. Even if you give a small amount of insulin at 100, the cat only has 60 points to go down before he is in hypo territory. Yes, the numbers may go up with food, but then the numbers should lower at nadir. It isn't a practice I would consider safe.

As Larry indicated, some Lantus users dose at lower numbers, but not with ProZinc.
 
Looking at your spreadsheet, I don't advise shooting at 100, or at anything under 150 for that matter.

What type of meter are you using? On a pet glucometer, normal BG range is about 70-150. On a human meter, we usually consider 40-120 to be the normal BG range. So if your vet is advising that you shoot anything under 120 (or 150), she's telling you to give insulin to a cat that has normal blood glucose numbers. Why would she want you to do that?
Yes, when you feed, the BG will go up some, and the insulin will work to lower it. That's how a healthy pancreas works as well. If your cat was not diabetic, and you tested his BG before and after feeding, you would see the BG go up, then back down as his pancreas did the job nature intended it to do. While your shot is taking the place of the insulin his pancreas should be producing, the problem is that you can't give just the right amount, like his pancreas would. Even if you halve the dose, it might be too much, especially if his pancreas is trying to produce some insulin of its own.

Larry said that he shot 2.5u of Lantus on a PS of 118? Well, that's fine for Larry, he's been doing this for years. And Larry is using Lantus, which doesn't work the same way that Prozinc does. Lantus dosing is not based on the AMPS or PMPS number, but on the nadir number that happens between shots. Many Lantus users give shots on numbers of 100 or even less. But again, that's the way that insulin works. Prozinc doesn't work the same way, so you can't follow the same "rules" that Lantus users follow without putting your cat in danger.

Question - are the doses you have been giving based on a scale the vet gave you to use where you adjust the amount based on the number at shot time?

If you look at June 3rd, when you shot 2u on a 441.... The BG dropped 350 points or so. Then you shot the same dose on a 287 that night. Without tests in the middle, you can't know how low it went. But the next morning it was only 108, and you skipped the shot. That was exactly the right thing to do. But what it indicates is that 2u on a 287 was too much. The cycle went more than 12 hours, indicating too much insulin. The next night, the number was higher than you wanted it to be I'm sure, after 24 hours with no insulin. But you shot a bit less with 1.75 on a 388, which logically sounds good. But the next morning, you again got a number that was on the borderline of "shoot or don't shoot", so you skipped, and got that ugly black number after 18 hours without insulin. What I find interesting is that it didn't continue to climb for the next six hours like you would logically expect, right? Instead, it dropped about 100 points. That would seem to indicate that he's at least producing some insulin on his own.

What you should try for is to find a dose high enough to keep the numbers under 300 or 250, but low enough to give you a number that you are able to safely shoot insulin into every 12 hours. To me, your spreadsheet indicates that in general, the doses have been too high so far. They are either leaving you with a low number 12 hours later, or they are causing the dose to last longer than 12 hours. Either way, you haven't been able to consistently dose twice a day due to low numbers.

You can draw a line in the sand at 200, or at 150, but you need to find a low enough dose to get those numbers at least by shot time.

Insulin isn't perfect, it doesn't act the same way every shot, and it doesn't follow a proportional logic or a ratio. You can't say "OK, 1.5 dropped it 250 points, so .75 should drop it 125 points." You can think that, but there are no certainties when it comes to how much insulin will be the exact right amount to shoot.
1.5 units might drop the BG 200 points today, and drop it 150 or 250 points tonight. With some of the mid-cycle numbers you have seen (the nice pretty green ones), you don't have much wiggle room between how low they were, and "too low".

I used PZI, which acts the same way Prozinc does, but doesn't last quite as long. Like Larry, I also shot "normal" doses into "normal" BG numbers. I shot 1u or more into numbers in the range of 90-110. BUT, I wasn't using Lantus, I was using a "P" insulin, which works differently. So I was stupid to do that. I could have killed my cat. In my defense, I wasn't aware of the fact that what I was doing was dangerous, or potentially fatal. My vet told me "call me if his number is less than 100". Otherwise, she said to "shoot the scale". She laid out a scale of doses that were graduated based on Bob's BG test numbers, and I blindly followed her advice. I did that for about 6 weeks or so, then realized the danger in doing that, so I decided to no longer follow her dose advice, and started reducing on my own, based a lot on what I read here. The people here, (while I never really asked for any dosing advice from them), saved Bob's life as far as I'm concerned. Just reading what they said to other people made me rethink what I was doing. I don't have any doubt that if I had not found FDMB, Bob would have died from hypoglycemia . Instead, 4 weeks after I started to reduce his dose and treat him more safely, he went into remission.

Bottom line....you hold the needle, so it's always your call on what to shoot and when. What you'll find here is that everyone's primary concern is the safety of your sugarkitty. So we advise cautiously. That's where the "200 line" comes from. Until you have a lot of data, so you more or less know what will happen based on the dose and the BG number you see at shot time, you should always err on the side of caution. Once you shoot the insulin in, you can't get it back out.

I would reduce the dose to 1u, test before every shot and at least once around the +5 to +7 range every cycle. On a day off, test 3 or more times between shots so you can see what the insulin does over 12 hours. Stick with that dose for 3 or 4 days, record all the data, and you would hope to see patterns start to show on the spreadsheet that will tell you whether the dose is too low, too high, or just right. Then you can adjust accordingly. Of course, if you see a really low number in that time period, you'd think about reducing the dose accordingly. If you have questions, ask away. People are here all day and all night to help.

Carl
 
OK, so yesterday morning, on a 269 you gave 1.5, which looks a little "rich", he gave you a beautiful 84 at PMPS, and you skipped (good call!). The best thing is that 24 hours after that 1.5, this morning, he's only up to 171!
It will be interesting to see what that .5 does today.
I said "try 1 unit" to see if that would give you a shootable number 12 hours later. It looks like the "right dose" may be even less than that, like .5 or maybe .75, which is awesome.

Looking forward to the next number(s)

Carl
 
Ok - So, tonight my Lucky kitty is at 177 after a .5 this AM. So, I dosed him at just under 1 ( my syringes go by units so I have to eyeball a bit)- closer to a .85 or.9 ... I didn't see your response to my post until after I had injected him .... So, we will see what tomorrow brings. I do feel like I am getting closer to his "right" dose and I know the 1.5 on most days is too much despite what my vet has advised. I also have saved my Lucky kitty because of this site. If I had followed my vet's advice, my cat would have probably hypo'd by now. Thanks to all for the advice and for just being here to give the "voice of reason." My vet has been great except I just knew that the advice of shooting under 100 was off and didn't make sense based on the numbers here. Part of the rational from my vet is that she thinks my glucose meter is low by somewhere between 20-40 pts. I brought my meter in on 6/5 and the glucose level on mine was 535 but the vet's doesn't test accurately above 500 (is what they said) so they knew that mine was fairly accurate but still felt mine was testing low. Not sure on that one. I am using a Target UP and UP meter. Really easy to use but any thoughts on accuracy or lack thereof?

Interesting point on the fact that our cats won't react exactly the same to an insulin dose each and every day. I hadn't thought of that but it makes total sense.

BTW my Lucky kitty was at a 550 on 6/5 because of his trip to the vet - I saw there was a comment about amt of insulin, etc but He gets completely stressed out going to the vet like most kitties do. His levels have calmed down a lot since then and getting more consistent.



Thanks Again for taking the time to look at my spreadsheet and give thoughtful feedback!!!

Julie
 
You might get another test tonight just to make sure he doesn't dip too low.

One other important element is to make sure your number is rising, not falling. That's why whenever you get a number around 200, we suggest retesting, to be sure the number isn't dropping.
 
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