Newly Diagnosed, switch to Lantas or PZI, why?

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Pogen

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Hello to FDMB members.
My beloved Taser (tuxedo cat), a 7 year old neutered male had a DKA on Dec. 6, 2012. He was with the vet for 5 days and stabilized. Likely due to Pancreatitis and an infection (based on lab results).  I took him to my secondary vet who treats dogs and cats since my primary cat vet was not available. Leading up to this episode/crisis, Taser had been drinking a lot of water and sleeping by the cat bowls – but we did not appreciate the possible implications of this change in behavior. After bringing Taser home, my secondary vet did a BG once a week for two weeks. His first BG on 12/14/12 was 250 and his second BG was 300 on 12/18/12. On 12/28/12 they did a fasting BG at 9:30 am and his BG was 386 and 439 on my Relion Confirm glucometer. So Taser was prescribed Humulin N (NPH), 1 unit bid.  When I asked why he selected this brand of insulin, the secondary vet mentioned that it was cheaper. When I left the office I read some of the printed materials regarding the pros of using Lantus vs.NPH,  I called the secondary vet’s office and spoke to the front office suggesting that I was willing to pay more for the non-cheaper insulin. She spoke to the vet who said he was more comfortable using NPH. I have a 10 ml vial of HPN. When the vet called to see how Taser was doing the following day I mentioned to him that a majority of people seem to be using Lantus vs HPN on this website. He said that when it first came out it was the latest and greatest thing and that now there was not much difference according to the latest info from conferences. I asked him which insulin, Lantus or HPN, would give the best chance of remission in cats and his response was that “insulin is insulin”. I then asked him if he would change me over to Lantus if I chose and he said that he would.
 
During the time prior to Taser’s official diagnosis of diabetes, I checked the web and this site and proceeded to prepare for a Diabetes diagnosis.  We now have 15 cats (all but 1 are rescues). They are free rangers. We had fed them wet friskies, mostly gravies, shredded and pates, and mostly Costcos maintenance dry cat food. My wife used to give some of the cats, whiskas pouches and meow mix as treats. We are now phasing out these treats.  We stopped the dry food, kept the friskies pate, and added some fancy feast low calorie. I am trying to digest all the information about the types of insulins and the impact of different diets, but feel like I’m going crazy with all this new information. Now I feel like I’ve been “killing them (the cats) softly” for the past 12 to 20 years with the food we had been giving them. 
 
Today is Taser’s seventh day on HPN and I have finally decided to switch him (ASAP) over to Lantus. I called my primary vet, who overall has managed our cats quite well to see if I could see her sooner than Monday’s scheduled appointment 1/7/13. I discovered that she uses PZI for her Diabetic cats. My understanding is that PZI needs to be formulated and is not readily available. At this point I am not to comfortable changing to Lantus with my secondary vet (who is great with dogs), but I will if I must. I’m comfortable with my primary vet, but am concerned about PZI formulation. I want to do what is best for Taser long term. Any suggestions or advise?   Thank You!
 
 
Welcome! It looks like you have been busy doing your research and learning a lot in the process. Many congratulations for switching all your many cats over to wet food; they will be so much healthier.

I would say there is a bias toward Lantus on the site. We have a large group that uses it and many cats are successful with it. They have an established protocol for doses. It is a human insulin that has proved successful for diabetic cats and is sold at pharmacies (in most states a prescription is required.) There are fewer cats who are on ProZinc or PZI. ProZinc is the insulin you buy from the vet; BCP PZI is a compounded insulin sold by pharmacies (although your vet still orders it.) There was a larger group here earlier in the year, but there was a shortage of ProZinc and many people switched. There no longer seems to be a shortage.

It varies with the cat - as does everything with this disease. If you read the remission thread at the top of this page, you can read the stories of kitties who went into remission, how long it took and how it was accomplished. I would say most PZI cats who are going into remission show promise from the beginning and it is a fairly fast process. But we also do have cats that go into remission after a year or longer; we have cats who are regulated for years at low doses. The same holds true for Lantus; some cats do well fast; some are on low doses and well regulated for years. We have also had cats who did not do well on PZI and got better numbers with Lantus. We always urge new members to work toward good regulated numbers and healthy cats. Remission is always a gift and not possible for every cat.

I would say the disadvantage with ProZinc or PZI is that we have no protocol. We don't say if the cat is at this number, you give this amount of insulin. With ProZinc, it is a process of getting the data and looking at the numbers and deciding whether to raise or lower the dose. The advantage of ProZinc is that it is a flexible insulin. There is not a hard and fast rule about shooting every 12 hours. Some cats have done best with 11/13 schedules or with a different dose am/pm. (All only after much data has been collected.)

I'd suggest you look at the PZI document: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799 Go over to the Lantus Support group and check out the protocol stickies on the top of their page: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9 I'd read through the threads on each group. We are a much smaller group; you will get more replies on the Lantus group because there are more people who use that insulin.

I would certainly argue that either insulin is better than Humulin. It tends to be a harsher insulin and doesn't last as long. We have had people on the site who have had success with Humulin, but very few. There is no support group that is active for Humulin users as it is just not used by members here.
 
Hi Taser's dad and welcome to FDMB,

I'm glad your vet is willing to switch to a better insulin. Both Lantus and Prozinc are good insulins. So are you trying to decide which one to go with?

The Compounded PZI is available but is becoming harder to come by (compounding pharmacies stopping PZI) but there is an insulin Prozinc that is available through the vet office and some Costcos which should be very similar.

Lantus is a long lasting insulin with a depot (builds up over several days) and stays in their system until it is needed. Lantus has a set in stone Tight Regulation Protocol to follow and the dose is based on the Nadir (the lowest point of the cycle) not the Pre Shots.

Prozinc lasts in their system anywhere from 10 to 14 hours and then it's gone, the dosing is based on Pre Shot numbers and then the nadir number. Prozinc is a very flexible insulin schedule wise.

You will need to monitor Taser's blood sugar befor every insulin injection to make sure it is safe and some mid cycle tests to check how the insulin is working.

So if you and your wife work away from home for long hours every day maybe PZI or Prozinc would be the best choice, if you are home during the day and can test often then Lantus is probably the best choice.

These are just the basic differences in the insulins, we have put together a massive document about PZI in the stickies at the top of the Insulin Support Group, Lantus has their information in the stickies on top of their Insulin Support Group page. You can read through these to see which insulin best suits your needs.

Also, don't beat yourself up over feeding the dry food, that is pretty much how we all got here but now we know better.

You're right, there is a crazy steep learning curve in the begining of Feline Diabetes, it is scarry and overwhelming and everyone here has stood in your shoes and felt the same way with all the same doubts and questions that you are having now. Someone reached out and helped us learn the ropes and now we are doing the same.

Hang in there, you are doing great, please ask any questions as they come up.

Robin
 
Thank you Sue and Oliver. Thanks for your support. Yes it was very much work to change the clans diet and I am still working on it. I first read Lisa Piersons, Catinfo.org, and my first question was, is this a legitimate website? But as I was reading I knew she was right. And coming to this forum and hearing the same thing in different ways and reading additional material made me a believer. Also, I thank you Rob and Harley for your support and understanding. We have quite a few cats and this is our first Diabetes diagnosis. I've given cats sub-q and IM injections and given fluids to several cats for many years but pricking Tasers ear was a bear! We both pricked our fingers to try the glucometer and tested our BG levels but that first day we just could not get Taser's ear to bleed. We felt like we were hurting him. Perseverance. I'm getting the hang of it and feeling much more comfortable. I'd like to give an update. My primary vet office called and said they would write me a prescription for Lantas after checking out Taser. They ran out of PZI. I like the idea of a flexible insulin but I'm not quite comfortable with pharmacy specific formulations, so I'm happy to go this route (Lantus). I also added some questions to my original post that I will include in this message.

1. Does anyone clean their vials with alcohol prior to withdrawing insulin? If not, why?

2. Having used HPN for 8 days now, does that decrease any chances of remission?

3. I did a curve yesterday and am posting the numbers. I am new at this and I am not following protocol yet, but I would just like to share my results. Also, I do not plan to increase his NPH dose since I will be be given a prescription for Lantus hopefully, on Monday. What I noticed with the curve is that his BG nadir is at about 3-5 hours. This is a short window of relief for Taser so I can see why no one likes to use this insulin. I would prefer a longer steadier nadir.

4. Taser’s First BG curve. I did the first test at three hours after his morning dose instead of two hours. I took a 2 hour test after his evening dose to more or less get an idea if his nadir might have started earlier than 3 hours. As I mentioned above, I am using a Relion Confirm Glucometer. When I compared my Relion meter to the vet’s venous sample the Relion value was 15% higher than the vet’s. I can divide my BG value by 1.15 to hopefully get something comparable to the vet’s. Listed are the BG values of my 1st curve using the Relion Confirm numbers.

10:00 am AMPS 417 / 1 unit NPH
1:00 pm 242
3:00 pm 245
5:00 pm 321
7:00 pm 392
9:00 pm 340 / 1 unit NPH
11:00 pm 277

5. Is it preferable to purchase a 10 ml vial or the syringes of insulin? Can I purchase just 1 syringe or do I have to purchase the package? I frequent Costco and Target. Are these the best places to purchase the Lantus?

Thank you all for any advice or suggestions!

Once again Thank you Sue and Oliver, Rob and Harley



 
 
Lantus is a good insulin and should work well. You need to post your questions in the Lantus support group and they'll be able to answer everything. I only used PZI so can't advise on Lantus.

Good luck to you and Taser! You're on a good path.
 
Hi Pogan - welcome and we'll probably see each other on the Lantus board.

I started here a year ago, but due to other conditions, I switched as well - except that I changed to Levemir. Lev and Lantus are similar in some ways. Both have the depot, or reserve tank, but perform slightly differently. Grayson has done much better with the longer-lasting insulin.

Grayson also made my life a living hell the first month or two, as he doesn't have much blood in his ears. Perseverance, as you said, will be very valuable! Some people successfully test on the kitty's paw pad (like the thumb pad that doesn't get walked on. I've never tried it, but it might be easier for you.

I really thought going from PZI to Lev would be difficult. As it turns out, I was pretty much keeping to the schedule most of the time. You might just need to do some advance planning if you've got a schedule conflict. I spent most of December and last week shooting at around noon and midnight. Normally I'm at 6:30, so we're doing a gradual shift to get back on the schedule that works best.

I would call around to various pharmacies and see who has the best price on the Lantus. Initially, you'll be probably shooting 1u, so a vial or a pen will work fine. The pens allow you more longevity. We don't use the needles that you purchase FOR the pens - most of us use a syringe (100 for $12.80 at Walmart) and draw from the pen. Some insulins recommend using the pen or vial for 28 or 46 days, then discarding the rest. Most of us do not discard the insulin. Likewise, if it's refrigerated, it will extend the shelf life. The pens are smaller and (at least for Lev) come in a box of 5. Thus more expensive up front, but if you're discarding after x# of days, there is less waste.

I called around and found Walgreens to have the best price on Levemir - much to my surprise! They have a prescription savings card ($35) which discounts the price to about $106/vial or $189 for 5 pens (1.5 times the content). I would encourage you to call around and ask before you decide where to get it.

I am not familiar with NPH, so I can't say that it will or will not affect your potential for remission. Some cats get diabetes after taking certain drugs; others genetically predisposed; and still others because of their food. The diet change sometimes results in remission, just like in humans. But there's no hard & fast rule. I have a foster that's a diet-controlled diabetic - no insulin - and there are plenty of others like her out there.

I have a large house-full of cats as well. Everyone used to eat dry, medium-priced kibble. Grayson had to change, but economics dictated that everyone else did not. But following some of what I learned from Dr. Lisa Pierson, everyone gets canned a few times a week. Some get it daily. Their coats look great. The UTIs have cleared up almost completely... it's been good for all of them. Meanwhile, Grayson would prefer the dry, but is FORCED to eat the good stuff! He does eat separately from those with the dry, and it's taken up before he's allowed out with them. Feeding time is a little crazy, but once you get the hang of it, it's much easier, as you know. Kudos to you being able to switch all of them. It can be a very significant change to your budget.... but it's like insurance - pay it now, or pay it later. We do the best we can for them. And they love us for it!

Good luck as you "learn this dance". It takes a little while, but it does get easier. Be patient with yourself, and be sure to give your kitty treats (the lo-carb ones, that is!) - freeze dried chicken and freeze dried shrimpies are Grayson's favorites! I get them at PetSmart.

As others have said, ask plenty of questions. With Lantus, you'll be best to post there instead of PZI, and you'll have lots of experienced people to meet & help you.

All the best!
Lu-Ann
 
Hello Lu-Ann,
Thank you very much for your response, it is very much appreciated. I am curious as to why you chose to go with Levemir as opposed to Lantus? What happened with the PZI?
Do you, or have you used an alcohol wipe to sanitize a vial or syringe of insulin prior to withdrawing your insulin?
I am feeling a bit concerned with my upcoming switch to Lantus, but I believe it is in Taser's best interest to be on a longer lasting insulin as you have pointed out. It appears I will have to test him much more frequently, initially at least. Having a house full of cats is a huge responsibility especially since everyone is getting older. Actually, the budget is probably going to increase because the better cat foods cost more. The Whiskas and Meow Mix treats were relatively inexpensive. But then again no more dry food cost, so maybe the budget will even out. Thanks for the info on freeze dried treats. I will stop by Petsmart tomorrow and try some. I need a good treat for Taser after his BG pricks. And kudos to you for caring for your many cats!
Take Care Lu-Ann,
Hope to hear from you soon and give Grayson a welcome/thank you hug.
Pogen
 
Hello Lu-Ann,
Thank you very much for your response, it is very much appreciated. I am curious as to why you chose to go with Levemir as opposed to Lantus? What happened with the PZI?
Do you, or have you used an alcohol wipe to sanitize a vial or syringe of insulin prior to withdrawing your insulin?
I am feeling a bit concerned with my upcoming switch to Lantus, but I believe it is in Taser's best interest to be on a longer lasting insulin as you have pointed out. It appears I will have to test him much more frequently, initially at least. Having a house full of cats is a huge responsibility especially since everyone is getting older. Actually, the budget is probably going to increase because the better cat foods cost more. The Whiskas and Meow Mix treats were relatively inexpensive. But then again no more dry food cost, so maybe the budget will even out. Thanks for the info on freeze dried treats. I will stop by Petsmart tomorrow and try some. I need a good treat for Taser after his BG pricks. And kudos to you for caring for your many cats!
Take Care Lu-Ann,
Hope to hear from you soon and give Grayson a welcome/thank you hug.
Pogen
 
Hi -

We switched to Levemir because it tends to be less "stingy" for high-dose kitties. Otherwise, I could've gone with either one.

I don't swab the vial or his skin anymore. Initially I did, but not any more. Doesn't seem to make a big difference.

And the food... while Grayson had his ravenous appetite, his daily canned food cost what I could feed all the rest for in a week! :shock:
 
My understanding is that the alcohol swap will eventually cause the rubber stopper on the vial to deteriorate, but I never did that with my pzi vial.
Carl
 
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