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- Thread starter Brandy613
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Rob & Harley (GA)
Very Active Member
Hi and welcome to our PZI group,
I went over to health to catch up on where you are at in this dance, have you completely switched over to the wet low carb food? I'm guessing by the cost of the insulin you are using the compounded PZI is that right?
What was his blood glucose at dx? I think that since you have a meter coming any day now I would wait until it came and you could get a test before starting the insulin.
I'm glad you came over, how did Nutz get his name?
Robin
I went over to health to catch up on where you are at in this dance, have you completely switched over to the wet low carb food? I'm guessing by the cost of the insulin you are using the compounded PZI is that right?
What was his blood glucose at dx? I think that since you have a meter coming any day now I would wait until it came and you could get a test before starting the insulin.
I'm glad you came over, how did Nutz get his name?
Robin
Brandy613
Member
Hi Robin, yes it is compounded. He was at 421 with his blood test. He got his name because he was nuts when he was younger. We got him from friend that couldn't keep him because they had a new baby and he scratched him. He is was a perfect fit for us. Now that he is older and fixed he is much more mellow.
Rob & Harley (GA)
Very Active Member
I'm glad he's not nuts anymore. My Harley's mama was named Frisco until I realized that she was psycho, we changed her name to Sybil. :lol:
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
Hello welcome to PZI!
I am Jenn & my big, brown cat is Baxter. We aren't good a dosing advice, but can help on many other ways.
Ask away with all your dosing questions. You will get lots of help.
I am Jenn & my big, brown cat is Baxter. We aren't good a dosing advice, but can help on many other ways.
Ask away with all your dosing questions. You will get lots of help.
Grayson & Lu
Very Active Member
Hi again! Glad you made your way over to PZI. Like I said last night - some great people here w/ a great collective knowledge/experience base. Grayson and I have been here since January, and have seen some ups & downs in doses, some long cycles, and some high ketones. We don't offer much dosing advice, as we're still trying to get that right for ourselves, but there are plenty of others who can share their wisdom as you move along.
Like I said, the testing is the biggest challenge. Once you get comfortable with that, the rest falls into place pretty well. The "testing spot" mentioned above, the treats (freeze dried chicken is AWESOME!), and the practice will make life much easier for you. Pretty soon Nutz will be running there for his Pokies! (and treat!)
Again, Welcome!
Lu-Ann
Like I said, the testing is the biggest challenge. Once you get comfortable with that, the rest falls into place pretty well. The "testing spot" mentioned above, the treats (freeze dried chicken is AWESOME!), and the practice will make life much easier for you. Pretty soon Nutz will be running there for his Pokies! (and treat!)
Again, Welcome!
Lu-Ann
Holly and Josie
Active Member
Welcome! I'm Holly and my kitty is Josie. We're still pretty new here and this board has been a great help! You will love it here!
Angela&Henry
Very Active Member
Welcome to our group, Holly and Nutz. We are a small but friendly group and the people here are very supportive.
Its busiest here early in the morning and in the evenings.
I think you should wait to start his insulin until your meter arrives, the change in diet to low carb can bring him down a lot on his own and you want to be safe.
My name is Angela and my cat is Henry (aka Big Hen).
Its busiest here early in the morning and in the evenings.
I think you should wait to start his insulin until your meter arrives, the change in diet to low carb can bring him down a lot on his own and you want to be safe.
My name is Angela and my cat is Henry (aka Big Hen).
Brandy613
Member
The Kit came in today...YAY! Gave him 4 units at the vet. He did just fine no problems! Tested him at 8:00pm 4hrs after shot and was at 46....gave him dinner :smile:
Fancy Feast at the petco was $15.00 for a case. Not sure if we will give him 4 units tomorrow :? The insulin was cheaper than expected
$77.00 for 100 units. So I spoiled him at petco, bought him treats, a nice soft laying mat, water fountain drinking bowl, a toy, and a some catnip 
He has really suprised the vat and me on how well he handled being poked!
Fancy Feast at the petco was $15.00 for a case. Not sure if we will give him 4 units tomorrow :? The insulin was cheaper than expected
$77.00 for 100 units. So I spoiled him at petco, bought him treats, a nice soft laying mat, water fountain drinking bowl, a toy, and a some catnip He has really suprised the vat and me on how well he handled being poked!
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
I am one to not usually give dosing advice, but 4 units is way to much. We like to start slow & increase the dose slow. What BG was Nutz DX at?
46 is really low & could bring hypo symptoms. 46 really isn't a save insulin induced number. Especially just 4 hrs after the shot. Nadir which is the lowest point hits around 4-7 after a shot. There is room & time BG could continue to drop. Please keep a eye on Nutz. You might want to run some BG test. Do you have a home monitor for testing? What was his BG before his 4 units dosin? It is extremely important to test before you feed & adminster insulin after. You want adminster 12/12. Most memebrs feed 2 meals 12 hrs apart with insulin. Some members feed 4 small meals with 2 shots 12 hrs apart.
Test
Feed
Shot
Some vets don't know the right amount to dose. In the vet BG tends to run higher because of stress. Vets want to dose according to those numbers. So when the owner gets home & BG has dropped because the cat is calmer the amount the vet prescribe is way to much.
If you ever have a question about dosing or BG number just start a new post. You will get lots of help.
Jenn & Baxter
46 is really low & could bring hypo symptoms. 46 really isn't a save insulin induced number. Especially just 4 hrs after the shot. Nadir which is the lowest point hits around 4-7 after a shot. There is room & time BG could continue to drop. Please keep a eye on Nutz. You might want to run some BG test. Do you have a home monitor for testing? What was his BG before his 4 units dosin? It is extremely important to test before you feed & adminster insulin after. You want adminster 12/12. Most memebrs feed 2 meals 12 hrs apart with insulin. Some members feed 4 small meals with 2 shots 12 hrs apart.
Test
Feed
Shot
Some vets don't know the right amount to dose. In the vet BG tends to run higher because of stress. Vets want to dose according to those numbers. So when the owner gets home & BG has dropped because the cat is calmer the amount the vet prescribe is way to much.
If you ever have a question about dosing or BG number just start a new post. You will get lots of help.
Jenn & Baxter
Catannc
Active Member
I second that 4 units is wayyyyy to much and a 46 at +4 is not a good thing, it's really dangerous. A normal starting dose of PZI would be 0.5 to 1 units every 12 hours, please be careful! You'll find out pretty quickly that most vets do not know how to dose or monitor a cat, sadly. My cat is super sensitive to insulin and had a hypo incident her 3rd shot of 1u, and we were diagnosed at 450.
*and as others mentioned, the diet change to wet low carb will bring BG down on it's own...maybe 100 points even. Most have to reduce insulin almost immediately after the diet change because of the BG drop.
*and as others mentioned, the diet change to wet low carb will bring BG down on it's own...maybe 100 points even. Most have to reduce insulin almost immediately after the diet change because of the BG drop.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Hi Brandie and Nutz!
What was his number when he got his shot? You said it was 421 at the vet? And only 46 four hours after his shot, at which time you gave him dinner? I don't want to alarm you, but 46 is very low, especially only 4 hours after his shot. If you hadn't fed him just then, he could have gone dangerously lower. "Normal" for a cat is 50-120. Usually the low point of an insulin cycle is about 6 hours after the shot, although every cat is different, and some kitties reach that point (nadir) earlier or later than 6 hours from the shot.
We need to understand your schedule so his numbers will make sense to us...
He should be getting a shot every twelve hours, give or take a few minutes. And he should be eating a meal at shot time. The way we normally do it is we test just before feeding, then we let them eat, and then we give the shot. The whole process can take maybe 10 minutes?
The other concern is that dose. Four units is huge. Most of us started out at 1 unit, twice a day. That's what my sugar cat Bob got. Now, he went as high as 4 units twice a day, but that was weeks later. He was on the same insulin, compounded PZI, for about 10 weeks. His last shot was in July of this past year, and he's been controlled just by diet since then.
I looked in your thread on Health a few minutes ago, and you mentioned that tomorrow you would not be home after his morning meal and shot? Then please definitely don't give him 4 units. If at all possible, test him before breakfast and post your number here. Lots of people are on between 6-8 AM eastern, and then some are on a few hours later. You're in WA if I remember right? What time, your time, would shot time be in the morning. I'm just trying to make sure that you can give him his insulin safely in the morning and not have to worry about him while you are at work.
We're also going to have to help you set up a spreadsheet to keep track of his test results, which is a really powerful tool in treating diabetes.
Welcome to our little group!
Carl
What was his number when he got his shot? You said it was 421 at the vet? And only 46 four hours after his shot, at which time you gave him dinner? I don't want to alarm you, but 46 is very low, especially only 4 hours after his shot. If you hadn't fed him just then, he could have gone dangerously lower. "Normal" for a cat is 50-120. Usually the low point of an insulin cycle is about 6 hours after the shot, although every cat is different, and some kitties reach that point (nadir) earlier or later than 6 hours from the shot.
We need to understand your schedule so his numbers will make sense to us...
He should be getting a shot every twelve hours, give or take a few minutes. And he should be eating a meal at shot time. The way we normally do it is we test just before feeding, then we let them eat, and then we give the shot. The whole process can take maybe 10 minutes?
The other concern is that dose. Four units is huge. Most of us started out at 1 unit, twice a day. That's what my sugar cat Bob got. Now, he went as high as 4 units twice a day, but that was weeks later. He was on the same insulin, compounded PZI, for about 10 weeks. His last shot was in July of this past year, and he's been controlled just by diet since then.
I looked in your thread on Health a few minutes ago, and you mentioned that tomorrow you would not be home after his morning meal and shot? Then please definitely don't give him 4 units. If at all possible, test him before breakfast and post your number here. Lots of people are on between 6-8 AM eastern, and then some are on a few hours later. You're in WA if I remember right? What time, your time, would shot time be in the morning. I'm just trying to make sure that you can give him his insulin safely in the morning and not have to worry about him while you are at work.
We're also going to have to help you set up a spreadsheet to keep track of his test results, which is a really powerful tool in treating diabetes.
Welcome to our little group!
Carl
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Brandie,
How big is the bottle of insulin (how many ml is it?). I had a 10ml vial, and that was 400 units. There are 40 units of insulin in one milliliter (or one cc) of PZI. It should say "U40" somewhere on the bottle too. And if that's the case, you should also have been given "U40" syringes by the vet. (PZI also comes in "U100" strength, so let us know what your vial and syringes say). It's very important that they all match so that the dose is right.
Bob was on insulin for 10 weeks, and I didn't use up that whole original 10ml vial I bought, so your's should last you more than a month easy.
You also asked, I think in Health, about how much he should be eating? How much does he weigh, and is he at his ideal weight right now, or too fat or skinny? An uncontrolled diabetic cat will eat more than normal, so at first we don't worry about how much to feed. We just let them eat! But 2 cans of Fancy Feast a day would only be 6 ounces, and probably about 180 calories or so. That's enough for a 8-9 pound cat to maintain his weight. It's more about how many calories they get than how many ounces or cans per day. As long as it's good low carb canned food, which Fancy Feast Classics are.
Carl
dmartini4
Very Active Member
I hope everything went ok last night
A little worried....4 units is way too much and a 46 at +4 could be so very dangerous
This morning he will be very high as I am sure he bounced all the way to kingdom come today
PLEASE do not shoot the bounce...meaning do not increase or stay at 4 units
because he WILL be high today, that is his body's way of trying to protect itself
from such a large drop and low number last night
PLEASE start at one unit and hold there until you can collect some data(at least 4 or 5 days for a newbie)
A little worried....4 units is way too much and a 46 at +4 could be so very dangerous
This morning he will be very high as I am sure he bounced all the way to kingdom come today
PLEASE do not shoot the bounce...meaning do not increase or stay at 4 units
because he WILL be high today, that is his body's way of trying to protect itself
from such a large drop and low number last night
PLEASE start at one unit and hold there until you can collect some data(at least 4 or 5 days for a newbie)
Teresa and Poopy
Very Active Member
Welcome to PZIville, Brandi and Nutz! cat_pet_icon In no time at all this will feel like the best home you've ever belonged to!
I'm also going to chime in on the dose...too high! Especially with the swift drop to 46. We follow a start low, go slow approach to keep our kitties safe. Starting low means .5-1.0 unit every 12 or so hours. If that's not enough insulin to keep kitty in good numbers, we slowly increase the dose by .2-.25 units. Another way we go slow is to hold a dose for at least a few cycles. Some kitties take at least a few cycles to settle into a dose. Many of our kitties take less than 2.0 units twice a day.
I haven't seen testing for ketones mentioned. Next time you're at the pharmacy, pick up a package of ketone test strips. They aren't expensive and could help save tons of money and risk. Ketone test strips are simply strips with a test area that we dip the strip test area into the cat urine (some hoover and get the strip into the urine stream, some catch urine in a large spoon or ladle, some use plastic in the litter box, some change the litter to something that doesn't absorb it...and the ideas continue so if you need ideas be sure to post), count then compare the test area to the color coded chart right on the bottle of strips. Easy peasy. If ketones are present, we have tons of helpful ideas how to bring them down and keep kitty away from DKA (dangerous and expensive to treat).
Oh my. That did sound scary, didn't it? Again, we test for ketones to be safe. while it can happen, it doesn't always happen for every kitty.
I'm also going to chime in on the dose...too high! Especially with the swift drop to 46. We follow a start low, go slow approach to keep our kitties safe. Starting low means .5-1.0 unit every 12 or so hours. If that's not enough insulin to keep kitty in good numbers, we slowly increase the dose by .2-.25 units. Another way we go slow is to hold a dose for at least a few cycles. Some kitties take at least a few cycles to settle into a dose. Many of our kitties take less than 2.0 units twice a day.
I haven't seen testing for ketones mentioned. Next time you're at the pharmacy, pick up a package of ketone test strips. They aren't expensive and could help save tons of money and risk. Ketone test strips are simply strips with a test area that we dip the strip test area into the cat urine (some hoover and get the strip into the urine stream, some catch urine in a large spoon or ladle, some use plastic in the litter box, some change the litter to something that doesn't absorb it...and the ideas continue so if you need ideas be sure to post), count then compare the test area to the color coded chart right on the bottle of strips. Easy peasy. If ketones are present, we have tons of helpful ideas how to bring them down and keep kitty away from DKA (dangerous and expensive to treat).
Oh my. That did sound scary, didn't it? Again, we test for ketones to be safe. while it can happen, it doesn't always happen for every kitty.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Brandie
We really need to make sure we understand what you are dosing...
what color are the caps on your syringes?
What does the vial of insulin say on it?
What is the description on the bix of needles say?
Carl
We really need to make sure we understand what you are dosing...
what color are the caps on your syringes?
What does the vial of insulin say on it?
What is the description on the bix of needles say?
Carl
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
Is there any way you can get a test right now? I don't mean to freak you out so stay calm. You need to get a test. Especially since you gave insulin blind & after he dropping so low last night. When cats drop low & hypo they will be more sensitive to insulin. A hypo state doesnt have to show visual signs. Him acting cranky right now is a concern.
You might have to wrap him up like a burrito & test. He won't like it but it's really for his own good. He doesn't know or understand. Just give him a treat & some love.
Get a test & let's us know his BG so we can help you.
You might have to wrap him up like a burrito & test. He won't like it but it's really for his own good. He doesn't know or understand. Just give him a treat & some love.
Get a test & let's us know his BG so we can help you.
Angela&Henry
Very Active Member
Please try to check him at +4 today (four hours from shot) or at least by +6 (six hours from shot) so you can have some idea how hes doing on the 1 unit. So glad you reduced the dose, 46 at +4 yesterday is very low and scary, PZI typically doesn't bring the blood glucose down to its lowest point until 5-7 hours after injection, so he could have went into an emergency hypo situation.
Please check Nutz at these times today if you can. If hes starting low carb wet food, he may come down even more from the food, so 1 U may even be more than he needs, you need to get some data to see how much the dose is bringing him down at the lowest point.
Don't want to sound negative and I realize you just started testing, and I know you said he was cranky this morning, but its very important that he gets tested before every shot. He could be too low to shoot insulin and you won't know. Most people, especially beginners will not give insulin if their cats pre shot test is 200 or under particularly if you don't have enough data from mid cycle testing to see how they are reacting to the insulin dose.
Sue is usually the one who helps people set up their spreadsheets but she is on vacation for awhile and won't be checking in here as often, but I'm sure someone else here can help you get it set up.
It will get easier, I promise. Its overwhelming at first but you and Nutz will get the hang of it.
Please check Nutz at these times today if you can. If hes starting low carb wet food, he may come down even more from the food, so 1 U may even be more than he needs, you need to get some data to see how much the dose is bringing him down at the lowest point.
Don't want to sound negative and I realize you just started testing, and I know you said he was cranky this morning, but its very important that he gets tested before every shot. He could be too low to shoot insulin and you won't know. Most people, especially beginners will not give insulin if their cats pre shot test is 200 or under particularly if you don't have enough data from mid cycle testing to see how they are reacting to the insulin dose.
Sue is usually the one who helps people set up their spreadsheets but she is on vacation for awhile and won't be checking in here as often, but I'm sure someone else here can help you get it set up.
It will get easier, I promise. Its overwhelming at first but you and Nutz will get the hang of it.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
OK, super.
Here's what your syringes should look like then.
And here is what 1 unit looks like in the syringe - by the way, that's Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the syringe which is much easier to see than prozinc or pzi are!
You can see the number 5 below the plunger in that pic. If you had the needle drawn back to the line just before that on the previous dose, that was 4 units.
That 10ml vial holds 400 units. A full syringe will hold 20 units which is the highest number on my syringes. They are .5cc syringes.
Carl
Here's what your syringes should look like then.
And here is what 1 unit looks like in the syringe - by the way, that's Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the syringe which is much easier to see than prozinc or pzi are!
You can see the number 5 below the plunger in that pic. If you had the needle drawn back to the line just before that on the previous dose, that was 4 units.
That 10ml vial holds 400 units. A full syringe will hold 20 units which is the highest number on my syringes. They are .5cc syringes.
Carl
Angela&Henry
Very Active Member
Please as Jenn said, check him now and post his BG number here so someone can help you and make sure hes safe.
Angela&Henry
Very Active Member
Hi Brandy. How's Nutz doing today? Was a little worried about him yesterday. Hope all is o.k.
Brandy613
Member
Hi sorry for being gone, was working, Nutz is doing great. We have been having a VERY hard time testing him. So have not given him insulin. He is much more active :smile: We did have success this morning with the test he tested at 258, was not sure how much insulin to give, so gave him .5 units. Will test him again at 1:00pm which is the peak. Still not sure about how much insulin to give at which numbers. Should I have given him more?
Angela&Henry
Very Active Member
So glad you checked in and Nutz is doing good.
And glad you reduced the dose.
258 is a great AMPS, glad you went down to .5, 258 is getting close to most people's no shot number.
How did he do at nadir today?
And glad you reduced the dose.
258 is a great AMPS, glad you went down to .5, 258 is getting close to most people's no shot number.
How did he do at nadir today?
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