Newbie question: Is Tuna (or other seafood) in Jelly a bad option for regular, daily meals?

[Nimi S]

Sharing previous post for continuity: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...g-from-insugen-to-lantus.276453/#post-3064599

When I started Shen’s insulin treatment about 2 weeks ago, I hadn’t researched enough (still haven’t evidently) about the kind of changes that had to be made to his diet. I introduced whatever wet food I had at hand (Whiskas Chicken in Gravy, Royal Canin loaf kitten) to his dry food (Farmina Vetlife Obesity) in the ratio 50:50.

After a couple of days of giving only dry food in the middle, I reintroduced wet food in the form of Whiskas Tuna in Jelly (after learning gravies are comparatively high carb and have caramel for coloring) and intended to make this his regular diet.

• Dr Lisa's "Transitioning Feline Dry Food Addicts to Canned Food" says "Be careful to decrease the amount of fish as soon as possible. Health problems can occur with a predominantly fish-based diet."

• She has also explained why she doesn’t feed fish to her cats as a response in this thread https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...ds-is-it-ok-to-feed-exclusively-fd-crf.60116/

Fish: I do not favor feeding fish-based diets for several reasons: 1) allergy potential, 2) toxins/mercury levels, 3) PBDE levels (fire retardant chemicals with thyroid-disrupting properties), 4) often high in phosphorus and magnesium, 5) significant addiction issues - the cat will not eat anything else.​

• I also came across this link https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/blog/can-i-give-tuna-as-a-treat-to-my-diabetic-cat which says this:

“CAN I GIVE TUNA AS A TREAT TO MY DIABETIC CAT?
If it is a small amount (one level teaspoon) once, maybe twice a day, then it should not adversely affect his blood glucose. However, tuna is almost all protein and very little fat. Excess protein in relationship to low fat will cause the blood glucose of a cat to spike. Remember, your cat is a carnivore and can easily convert excess dietary protein into excess blood glucose.
Since the tuna is actually a treat, you are actually encouraging your cat to eat when they may not need to. Overeating will also cause an unnecessary increase in your cat’s blood glucose. Best to keep treats to a minimum with diabetic cats.”​

I have tried to not be too concerned about Shen's BG since it’s only been 2.5 days since we switched to Glargine but could the tuna be responsible for his readings the last few days?
Somehow he had better lows / variations in his BG when he had more dry food in the mix.

Before reading all this I had ordered a pack of 48 of Tuna in Jelly since I’ve been having to give 2.5-3 pouches daily and will need to further increase when he graduates to only wet food. I have since returned it.
I tried switching to Felix Salmon in Jelly today which he doesn’t like much. I’m thinking of going back to Chicken in Gravy for some time till I figure out what would be a good option to stick to for the long term.

Anyone here with a similar experience? What are the recommendations for flavours/meats for wet/canned food to use on a daily basis?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Remember it will take 5 to 7 days for the initial depot to fill with Lantus, so you are not seeing the full effect of the dose yet. Also you will most likely have to increase the dose after 7 days.
Regarding the food. I would not feed a fish meal every day. It is recommended not to feed fish more than twice a week.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

Hi Nimi, is Shen still getting some Vetlife Obesity dry food along with the low carb wet?

However, tuna is almost all protein and very little fat. Excess protein in relationship to low fat will cause the blood glucose of a cat to spike. Remember, your cat is a carnivore and can easily convert excess dietary protein into excess blood glucose.
Since the tuna is actually a treat, you are actually encouraging your cat to eat when they may not need to. Overeating will also cause an unnecessary increase in your cat’s blood glucose. Best to keep treats to a minimum with diabetic cats.”

This sounds quite weird. I don't know how true it is!

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

Why not tuna packed in water? "Jelly" could be just about anything and more likely gelatin, something we call meat glue.
It's generally a myth that cats love fish and milk. We have one that loves smoked salmon but that's just one in the last 20 years. The milk thing is from Disney, cats are lactose intolerant.

 

[Nimi S]

Hi Nimi, is Shen still getting some Vetlife Obesity dry food along with the low carb wet?

Yes, not a lot though (10 gms at the most throughout the day) and I'll reduce it to 0 by the end of this week.
He still has loose stools and I changed the wet food mid way to Chicken in Gravy, so I was transitioning out the dry a bit slower.

This sounds quite weird. I don't know how true it is!

I asked Chat GPT and this is what I got.
Q: Is the following sentence factually correct : Tuna is almost all protein and very little fat. Excess protein in relationship to low fat will cause the blood glucose of a cat to spike. Remember, your cat is a carnivore and can easily convert excess dietary protein into excess blood glucose.

A: The first part of the sentence, "tuna is almost all protein and very little fat" is generally correct. Tuna is a good source of protein and is typically lower in fat than other meats.

However, the second part of the sentence, "Excess protein in relationship to low fat will cause the blood glucose of a cat to spike" is not entirely accurate. While it is true that excess protein can be converted to glucose in the body, this process is not as simple as it may seem. The conversion of protein to glucose is a slower process than the conversion of carbohydrates, which means that the effect on blood glucose levels is not as immediate.

Additionally, it's important to note that cats have different metabolic pathways than humans and other animals, and their bodies are well-adapted to a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet. In fact, cats require a high-protein diet to meet their nutritional needs.

In summary, while excess protein can contribute to increased blood glucose levels in cats, it is not as simple as a direct relationship between protein and glucose. It's important to provide a balanced and appropriate diet for your diabetic cat that meets their individual needs and is recommended by a veterinarian or veterinary nutritionist.

Why not tuna packed in water? "Jelly" could be just about anything and more likely gelatin, something we call meat glue.
It's generally a myth that cats love fish and milk. We have one that loves smoked salmon but that's just one in the last 20 years. The milk thing is from Disney, cats are lactose intolerant.

Yes, I did want to check about tuna and other seafood generally, not specifically in jelly. But since I was feeding Shen tuna in jelly I ended up asking about that.
For some reason, here in India, we've got Tuna and its combos as the top flavor in wet food for cats, followed by Chicken, Mackerel, Salmon and Lamb/Turkey.
Shen does like cooked and raw fish but none of the other cats at home do. So he's the exception here too.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

Wow! You got your first green yesterday! How did it feel?

 

[Nimi S]

Wow! You got your first green yesterday! How did it feel?

I wasn't expecting it at all and was thrilled.. for all of 2 minutes before I went back to my regularly scheduled programming of overthinking and jumping to conclusions
But in all seriousness it was very reassuring to have seen him go green while he's still on 1U :')

He's been a bit moody and more lethargic, having looser stools and has stopped drinking water (I make sure to add lots of water to his snacks and meals, so maybe that's why) since a couple of days, so I wasn't nearly as happy as I would have been otherwise.
I was also wondering whether I missed his nadir and he might have dropped below 90 at some point and whether I was supposed to reduce the PM dose by 0.25.

I gave him Econorm powder (S Boulardii) for his stools but maybe I need to give it in capsule form?
Was planning on trying this advice that I came across while searching through the posts : You start out with a small amount -- 1/4 of a capsule mixed into canned food twice a day and increase by 1/4 capsule if the diarrhea persists.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I was also wondering whether I missed his nadir and he might have dropped below 90 at some point and whether I was supposed to reduce the PM dose by 0.25.

I dont think you missed the nadir. You were testing either side of it. I would stay at 1 unit.

has stopped drinking water (I make sure to add lots of water to his snacks and meals, so maybe that's why) since a couple of days,

If you are adding water to the food, he will be drinking less.

more lethargic,

Describe how he is more lethargic. When did it start? It is good you are testing for ketones

gave him Econorm powder (S Boulardii) for his stools but maybe I need to give it in capsule form?
Was planning on trying this advice that I came across while searching through the posts : You start out with a small amount -- 1/4 of a capsule mixed into canned food twice a day and increase by 1/4 capsule if the diarrhea persists.

@Sienne and Gabby (GA) posted a very good article on S boulardii and I thought I had bookmarked it. It described how to use it for diarrhoea.

 

[Nimi S]

I dont think you missed the nadir. You were testing either side of it. I would stay at 1 unit.

Yes, I won't change the dose without checking.
Do I do a 12/18hr curve tomorrow (day 7 of glargine) ?

Describe how he is more lethargic. When did it start? It is good you are testing for ketones

When I say more lethargic, to me it means him not responding back to my meows, not getting up to eat food even when I show it to him, bring it close to his face or even give him a taste and finding new, tiny spots to sleep in. He’s also not finishing any of his meals entirely, which is why i keep feeding him till +9 or +10.
I can’t say since when he’s been more lethargic but maybe since he’s started having looser stools?

I don’t expect him to be active or awake during the day as he’s been that way since forever.
But towards the evening and especially at night time he used to be awake and would ask to be fed frequently. Actually he used to get up at the sound of food anytime of the day.
He’s been sleeping a lot more ever since starting him on insulin but there were a few days in between (maybe when I went back to feeding him only dry food) that he was more active at night.

Most times I think I’m overthinking but I do feel like I notice some differences on a day to day basis.

@Sienne and Gabby (GA) posted a very good article on S boulardii and I thought I had bookmarked it. It described how to use it for diarrhoea.

Actually the advice I'd mentioned as wanting to try was given by Sienne in a reply to another member in an older thread.
I stalked Sienne a bit for replies on S boulardii. Were you referring to this article https://www.foodfurlife.com/my-cat-has-diarrhea---what-do-i-do.html#/ ?

It mentions this :
Traditional dosing for therapeutic treatment of diarrheain adult cats as provided by U.C. Davis is one-half of a 250mg capsule (5 billion CFU) given twice daily. Treatment for kittens is half of the adult dose. It can be given with food; it does not have to be. This is usually sufficient for loose stools of normal frequency. For the “emergency stop diarrhea” approach, we find more frequent dosing of smaller amounts of the probiotic, providing a higher total CFU the first day or two, resolves diarrhea much more quickly.

For adult cats (defined here as 9 months of age and older):

Give one-quarter of the 250mg / 5 billion CFU capsule every two hours or so. Many cats accept it when mixed into finely ground poached chicken breast / turkey breast / pork loin or meat-only baby food. (Beech Nut, Goya, and Gerber list “meat” and broth or gravy as ingredients. These are fine, they are referring to the water used to cook the meat, and they contain no spices). If your cat does not like the taste of the probiotic, you can syringe after mixing with water. If you are not experienced syringing liquids into your cat, you can use empty #3 gel capsules. Simply fill 10 to 20 of these by transferring the S boulardii from the larger capsules into the smaller ones. These are a size easy to pill your cat. Pill your cat with one #3 capsule filled with S boulardii every two hours or so. For pilling instructions, see How to Pill (Your Cat).

This frequent dosing method usually stops diarrhea within 24 – 48 hours, other than when diarrhea is caused by another disease that requires treatment (low B12, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, hyperthyroidism, as examples). This “loading dose” can be continued for longer if necessary, up to three to four days – but if you do not see substantial improvement in the diarrhea on day 3, it is best to follow-up with your veterinarian. It is NOT necessary to use this approach, it can be given at “therapeutic” doses as discussed above twice a day (and doubled if you see improvement in stool but diarrhea or soft cow patty stools have not resolved).

When the diarrhea has substantially resolved with use of the emergency stop treatment protocol, begin use of S. boulardii at the therapeutic dose level (2.5 billion CFU twice daily) and continue for at least one week. If stools soften, resume use of S. boulardii at the therapeutic dose as needed. Given its role in improving performance of bacterial probiotics and its anti-inflammatory properties, the use of S boulardii at maintenance levels (anywhere from 500 million CFU to a total of 2.5 billion CFU daily) can be continued indefinitely along with a bacterial probiotic. It confers many health and GI protective benefits, and we use it along with bacterial strains in all of our cats, all the time.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Do I do a 12/18hr curve tomorrow (day 7 of glargine) ?

You are doing enough testing to not need to do a curve. And with that green BG you will need to hold the dose at 1 unit for10 cycles after the green BG cycle.

When I say more lethargic, to me it means him not responding back to my meows, not getting up to eat food even when I show it to him, bring it close to his face or even give him a taste and finding new, tiny spots to sleep in. He’s also not finishing any of his meals entirely, which is why i keep feeding him till +9 or +10.

I am wondering if he might he nauseated. Could you ask the vet for some cerenia or ondansetron to see if that helps with his interest in food. If he is nauseated he wont be enthusiastic about eating.

Yes that article looks like the one Sienne posted.

 

[Nimi S]

You are doing enough testing to not need to do a curve. And with that green BG you will need to hold the dose at 1 unit for10 cycles after the green BG cycle.

Ok, so, including tomorrow, another 4 days dosing at 1U?

I am wondering if he might he nauseated. Could you ask the vet for some cerenia or ondansetron to see if that helps with his interest in food. If he is nauseated he wont be enthusiastic about eating.

I'll check. I think we don't have Cerenia here but I can see Ondansetron is available with prescription.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Ok, so, including tomorrow, another 4 days dosing at 1U?

Count 10 cycles from the green BG.