? Newbie Needs Help!

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Outcast

Outcast

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Just newly joined this group and yes, both my wife and I are new at our 2nd day diagnosed fur baby. She is a beautiful Calico and named Patches (18yrs old). We are using Vetsulin, 1 unit twice daily provided instructions for our vet. Vet indicated no testing needed...However, we are learning how to test prior to feeding. She received a Convenia antibiotic shot due to higher white cell count in urine. My question is this...if she eats throughout the day and does not eat just two meals a day, how do you actually get good numbers? She has always been free fed and we cannot turn that back, nor change her to eat 119 Kcal in one sitting. So, today, her numbers was 409 and we fed her before the shot and she ate a little bit. After, she ate more. Certainly no where needed for half her intake. How does one go about just giving the shot and hope for the best? What to do? WE hate to test her...even new at testing, she has to be handled because this is not what she wants...If we know the numbers for now are high, we are just going to give her the insulin until we start the curve in a few weeks...We are transitioning to lo cal Evo tomorrow and also giving her mostly Canned chicken and turkey Wellness, which she loves! I'm thinking that the antibiotic shot may be also messin with her numbers (perhaps).
 
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Welcome to the FDMB!! The best place you never wanted to be!!

With Vetsulin, it IS important to get most of their food in them before the shot because it's an older/harsher insulin that hits hard and fast....and unfortunately usually wears off too soon, but it's not 100% necessary to only feed twice a day

It's actually easier on the pancreas to have multiple, smaller meals so it's not having to work so hard but due to how Vetsulin works, you are going to want her to eat most of her food before her shots

The other, longer acting insulins like Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc are easier since they don't hit so hard or quick and they give you several hours before onset hits, so grazers can eat more slowly without having to worry so much about it

With Vetsulin you'll want to feed at least 20-30 minutes before you shoot so when the insulin "hits", there's food on board

As for your vet not saying anything about home testing, we hear that a LOT around here, but it's the only way to keep your kitty safe as well as learn how well the insulin is working. A doctor would never tell you to give insulin to a child without knowing what their blood glucose is and it's the same with our sugarcats.

I'm glad you're working on learning how to home test!! It's not necessary to use a special "pet" meter either....Most of us use human meters because the strips for the pet meters run about $1 EACH and if you're testing 4 (or more) times per day, that runs into a lot of money very quickly. The Relion Confirm and Micro meters are favorites around here (available at WalMart). They take the tiniest sample and the strips are a lot more affordable.

We don't use Vetsulin (we're using Lantus) but hopefully some of the others here will be around soon to offer you more guidance. It's getting a little late tonight, but you may still hear from others
 
Here's something I wrote up for others that needed help with testing...maybe it'll help you too! (substitute "her" for "him")

It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you. Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well

Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
 
Appreciate that information and id like to look at those 3 others as I believe that would be much better for her...I think, but my vet will let me know if that is okay. I am having a hard time testing. I feel that we broke her spirit today trying to test and poking her and not getting blood. Did not warm her ear up (my first mistake) and then free handing the lancet to pierce her ear. I don't think I can test her daily, i just dont know. She is not purring and does not want to be around us anymore tonight. I do not want to do the testing if it just makes me feel better to have her around and my wife feels the same. I want Patches to be happy as she is is her golden years. These years are meant to be happy and free from stress. I realize that perhaps as time goes on, we will get better at testing, but her ears are mangled. I just cant wait to do the curve in a few weeks (UGH NO).
 
Hello Patches owners. My Smokey will be 18 in April. Patches will feel better and be happier when her glucose come down. When glucose is high they feel sick and miserable just like we would. Diabetes can damage kidneys if left untreated for extended time.

You will do fine and Patches will love you more for making her feel better.
 
Hi, and welcome.

Outcast said:
We are transitioning to lo cal Evo tomorrow
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If you're transitioning to a low carb food you must regularly and repeatedly monitor blood glucose (BG) levels right the way through the transition - both before each injection and also in the time between injections - to keep Patches safe. Changing to a low carb diet can lower BG levels significantly and quickly so her current Vetsulin dose may need to be adjusted. Also, if Patches does have an infection and the antibiotic clears it up, Patches' BG levels may come down as a result. Home testing will enable you to respond quickly and adjust insulin dose if necessary.

I understand only too well how upsetting the pokes and prods can be but try to remind yourself that it's the best way to keep Patches safe on insulin and to help her to feel better. I shed many a tear when I was getting used to it, but I'm very glad I learned to home test my Saoirse. It helped to save her life not long after she started treatment.

On feeding with Vetsulin, the vet who diagnosed Saoirse insisted that she only be fed twice a day at injection time. This resulted in Saoirse having painful vomiting bouts because stomach acid built up as a result of the long fasts. I quickly changed to a feeding schedule that stopped the vomiting and which I timed as best I could to accommodate how Vetsulin works.

Vetsulin is made up of two components: amorphous and crystalline insulin. The amorphous component kicks in quite quickly after injection time and should significantly lower the blood glucose (BG) levels anywhere from 1 hour after injection time and it tends to produce a nadir about +3 hours after the dose was administered. The crystalline component kicks in a bit later and reaches its peak period of effect around +6 - +8 hours after injection and may produce a second, less pronounced nadir at that time.

The dosing/feeding schedule I followed for Saoirse was as follows:

* Preshot blood glucose test.
* Feed just under half of 12-hour food allowance (to 'preload' with carbs prior to first nadir).
* Give injection about 15-30 minutes later.
* Feed 1/4 of 12-hour food allowance at +3 hours after injection.
* Feed just under 1/4 of 12-hour food allowance at +6 hours after injection.
* Feed balance of of 12-hour food allowance as a little snack at +9 hours after injection (fewer carbs to handle as dose is wearing off).

That might give you some ideas about how to manage food and insulin in a way that works for Patches.

If you need to be away, and also at night, timed feeders (e.g. Petsafe 5) are a godsend: you can set them up to dispense food for Patches at the required times during the cycle.


Mogs
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I've just seen your second post about how nervous you are about testing. I was really nervous and anxious in the early days and Saoirse picked up on that very much. She used to grumble at me when I tried to test. I knew that the home testing was the best thing I could do to keep her safe and also to improve her regulation so that I could help her to feel better. I decided I was going to pretend to be confident about it. The 'fake it till ya make it' approach got us both over the initial strangeness; Saoirse was a lot more accepting of the testing when I acted more confidently (even though I didn't feel confident). Then when she started feeling better she became more positive about the testing. That, in turn, made me feel better about doing it. Between us we switched the feedback loop from negative to positive.

If ever you need reassurance about testing or tips and tricks, please post for help. So many of us have been nervous at the beginning and we'll do all we can to help and support you.


Mogs
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Outcast said:
These years are meant to be happy and free from stress. I realize that perhaps as time goes on, we will get better at testing, but her ears are mangled.
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Debbie and Matt,

Pretty much everyone feels that way when they first come here...that they're somehow going to ruin their relationship with their cats by testing, but except in some VERY unusual cases (like feral cats) our kitties learn not only to accept testing, but to look forward to it!!

There aren't many pain receptors in the ears so what they're objecting to most of the time is that you're fooling with their ears at all...once you condition them to learn that "fooling with their ears" means "gets a yummy treat", things will be much better!

They're smart critters...they somehow learn that the poking and shots is making them feel better, so they are OK with it...maybe not "happy" at first, but OK....and then as they learn there's a special treat they get when they get tested, it makes it a lot more acceptable!!...sooner than you think, they're jumping up on their "testing spot" all the time waiting for their test/treat!! I've even had China go to her "testing spot" and just stare at me like "Mom...it's time to test...come on over here!!"

You will be building a relationship with Patches that you can't even imagine right now. I thought that I loved China as much as a person could love a cat, but since we've been doing the sugardance, our relationship is SO MUCH BETTER! She's more loving than she's ever been and more social too. She didn't used to be a "cuddler", but since the diagnosis, she's almost always in my lap or near me.
 
Tip:

When I first started testing I really found it tricky to get a blood droplet. I found that I wasn't warming the ear long enough. I started warming the ear for a good bit longer than I initially imagined would be necessary and it made a world of difference to my success rate.

I'm not sure whether you've seen these threads; the first one has a very helpful diagram showing the 'sweet spot' for getting blood samples from the ear.

Testing and Shooting Tips (with ear diagram)

Home Testing Links and Tips

Another encouraging thing: as soon as you start testing more capillaries develop in the testing sites so it gets easier and easier to get a blood sample.

I second Chris's comment about how smart our kitties are. They may think we've gone nuts when we start the poking and prodding but when their blood sugar comes back into better numbers and they start feeling so much better for it they soon put two and two together and realise the pokey stuff has something to do with making them feel well again. :)



Mogs
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Here's some more information to get overwhelmed by too...the Convenia shot is one we really don't recommend using much. It's main use is for skin infections but vets like to give it for everything since it's "easier" than pills or liquid. The problem is that cats can have a bad reaction and there's nothing you can do about it but basic care and hope nothing more serious happens. It lasts in the body for 65 days....if your cat happened to be allergic to it, there's no way to get it "out" again. Here's more information on it for you about Convenia; Worth the Risk?
 
Chris & China said:
Here's some more information to get overwhelmed by too...the Convenia shot is one we really don't recommend using much. It's main use is for skin infections but vets like to give it for everything since it's "easier" than pills or liquid. The problem is that cats can have a bad reaction and there's nothing you can do about it but basic care and hope nothing more serious happens. It lasts in the body for 65 days....if your cat happened to be allergic to it, there's no way to get it "out" again. Here's more information on it for you about Convenia; Worth the Risk?
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The vet did send the urine to culture in a lab to ensure that strain was going to be removed with the convenia and/or that convenia would work to remove the strain. If not Convenia, what other broad spectrum antibiotics can be used in place of Convenia? Thank you,
 
I agree with Woodsywife, Chris and Critters mom it doesn't take long before they associate the poke with a treat.
2 months in and George reminds me when it's time for a poke and a treat, hops on my lap, purrs, waits for his poke and then get's his treat. He wakes me up at 7am in anticipation of his am test and feed routine.:cat::cat:(no lie ins for me anymore)

Initially I didn't get much of a blood drop so that was frustrating, but now as a general rule that's not a problem.

If anything with my old boy I have found that our bond has strengthened, he sticks to me like glue nowadays, if I sit for 5 minutes he's up on my lap like a flash waiting for cuddles, like you I was really worried that he was going to resent me for all the poking and prodding, but the opposite has been true.

Hang in there, it's frustrating and scary at first, we have all been there, but you will get into a routine soon and wonder what all the fuss was about:)
 
Hi and welcome! I am also a Vetsulin user, apparently one of the few who seem to have had good luck with it, lol. My kitty eats 3-4 times during the day, no problems so far, I just make sure he hasn't eaten anything at least 2 hrs prior to his AM or PM pre-shot test, so that number isn't influenced by food intake.

I spent hours sobbing because I thought my beloved Squallie would hate me for the rest of his life for poking his ears. I had very good luck and testing went very smoothly, but he objected to it fairly dramatically. It took time and patience, and lots of treats, but he now comes and gets me if he hears the "test-time alarm" go off and I'm not in the same room! After six months, he still has one spot on one ear that he's not fond of me touching - who knows why? - so I just try to avoid that area, and we're good. It really does get easier, and Patches will forgive you! And like the other posters, I have developed a much deeper relationship with Squallie than I had before, and it was very close already.

I can't really offer more advice, you've already gotten excellent advice from all the above! Just be reassured that it will get easier and Patches will come around. :)

Lucy
 
Squalliesmom said:
Hi and welcome! I am also a Vetsulin user, apparently one of the few who seem to have had good luck with it, lol. My kitty eats 3-4 times during the day, no problems so far, I just make sure he hasn't eaten anything at least 2 hrs prior to his AM or PM pre-shot test, so that number isn't influenced by food intake.

I spent hours sobbing because I thought my beloved Squallie would hate me for the rest of his life for poking his ears. I had very good luck and testing went very smoothly, but he objected to it fairly dramatically. It took time and patience, and lots of treats, but he now comes and gets me if he hears the "test-time alarm" go off and I'm not in the same room! After six months, he still has one spot on one ear that he's not fond of me touching - who knows why? - so I just try to avoid that area, and we're good. It really does get easier, and Patches will forgive you! And like the other posters, I have developed a much deeper relationship with Squallie than I had before, and it was very close already.

I can't really offer more advice, you've already gotten excellent advice from all the above! Just be reassured that it will get easier and Patches will come around. :)

Lucy
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Thank you for reply...appreciate that. I dont know if VEtsulin is even working...appetite is still down....perhaps its the antibiotic. I dont know. So far as of 5pm today, she had about 15 peices or so of kibble D/M. Then a 3 oz can of Wellness so far. she needs 1 more can of Wellness to get her Kcal in for the day. She eats about 8-10 times per day as she has always done. We feed about every hour or 2 hours. That is what she is used too, so we are trying to extend to 2-3 hours. It seems that no matter what we do, her sugar level is about 365-410 prior to giving the shot. She does not even know im giving her the shot. I will not test every time. I just wont do it. I know that bloggers are stating to test their cat like 100 times per day, but that is rediculous. perhaps testing 3-4 days...With a dog, yes, needs to be tested like a human and humans, you test after a meal...so, it is a little crazy. Im not going to break her spirit to test like 3-4 times per day. No way....

I will only do this during the curve to test every 1 hour or two hours. That will give us info.....Thanks,

She hates Evo BTW...:(
 
Outcast said:
Just newly joined this group and yes, both my wife and I are new at our 2nd day diagnosed fur baby. She is a beautiful Calico and named Patches (18yrs old). We are using Vetsulin, 1 unit twice daily provided instructions for our vet. Vet indicated no testing needed...However, we are learning how to test prior to feeding. She received a Convenia antibiotic shot due to higher white cell count in urine. My question is this...if she eats throughout the day and does not eat just two meals a day, how do you actually get good numbers? She has always been free fed and we cannot turn that back, nor change her to eat 119 Kcal in one sitting. So, today, her numbers was 409 and we fed her before the shot and she ate a little bit. After, she ate more. Certainly no where needed for half her intake. How does one go about just giving the shot and hope for the best? What to do? WE hate to test her...even new at testing, she has to be handled because this is not what she wants...If we know the numbers for now are high, we are just going to give her the insulin until we start the curve in a few weeks...We are transitioning to lo cal Evo tomorrow and also giving her mostly Canned chicken and turkey Wellness, which she loves! I'm thinking that the antibiotic shot may be also messin with her numbers (perhaps).
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Hi there, I'm new here myself and have found that this site is amazing. One thing I think I've pretty much mastered is the ear prick. The one and only time Ittybit yelled at me was when I tried to do it free hand. I find using a lancing device much better even though I was terrified of it at first. I didn't think I'd be able to aim properly without seeing the pin. What really helped is practising on a piece of paper. I pretended the paper's edge was the edge of the ear and I drew a line a small distance from the edge and this line is what I aimed for. It let me see exactly where and how I need to place the lancet in order to prick where I wanted to. Warming the ear well makes all the difference and poking the back of the ear instead of the inside works better for me. Make sure you have a finger on the other side of the ear for support, you can use a small folded up piece of paper towel or tissue so you don't prick thru the ear and into your finger. You can do this! Good Luck!
 
Actually, i did the exact same thing and I marked the autoject with nail polish from the wife to help me guide the 'sweet spot'. The problem with free hand is the pressure and the location. I am not going to test tonight and just give the shot....she needs it and I fear that she needs more than 1 unit right now. That is perhaps, why her appetite is lower...thoughts?
 
Outcast said:
Actually, i did the exact same thing and I marked the autoject with nail polish from the wife to help me guide the 'sweet spot'. The problem with free hand is the pressure and the location. I am not going to test tonight and just give the shot....she needs it and I fear that she needs more than 1 unit right now. That is perhaps, why her appetite is lower...thoughts?
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Every Cat is different, but I find that with George when his numbers are high he is hungrier, before diagnosis he had a insatiable appetite, as far as I understand when a cats BG is running high they can't get the nutrition they need into their system.

Have a read of this explanation of feline diabetes http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetes-info.htm

here's something I cut and pasted from it, perhaps it'll answer some of your questions,
everything else. So now you've got big time thirst, too.

Peeing and drinking. Fine. So what about the eating like they're starving?

If the body's cells think they're not getting sugar, even though it's in the blood stream (remember the doorway and the key?), the body says "hey, get some food in here so we can break it down to sugar and get the sugar into the cells for energy. We're starving here!!" Problem is, it's not actually a lack of food; rather, it's a lack of insulin keys to get the sugar into the cells.but the cells don't know that. They just figure that if more food comes, they'll be able to get the sugar they need. Wrong message, but it's what happens. The body is trying to stay alive, the cells are trying to do their job; but without sugar (because the door is locked, and insulin is the key), they can't. So they trigger the hunger response.and more food is consumed.

Not sure if High blood glucose alone would make her loose her appetite, there might be something else going on. Some cats struggle with their appetite when they are bouncing from low numbers to high numbers, but without knowing what results you are getting in your tests it's hard to say, have you tried setting up the ss to record your results?? here's a link explaining how it's a really good tool to allow the experienced users on this site to be able to offer advice setting up spreadsheet
 
GTS said:
Every Cat is different, but I find that with George when his numbers are high he is hungrier, before diagnosis he had a insatiable appetite, as far as I understand when a cats BG is running high they can't get the nutrition they need into their system.

Have a read of this explanation of feline diabetes http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetes-info.htm

here's something I cut and pasted from it, perhaps it'll answer some of your questions,
everything else. So now you've got big time thirst, too.

Peeing and drinking. Fine. So what about the eating like they're starving?

If the body's cells think they're not getting sugar, even though it's in the blood stream (remember the doorway and the key?), the body says "hey, get some food in here so we can break it down to sugar and get the sugar into the cells for energy. We're starving here!!" Problem is, it's not actually a lack of food; rather, it's a lack of insulin keys to get the sugar into the cells.but the cells don't know that. They just figure that if more food comes, they'll be able to get the sugar they need. Wrong message, but it's what happens. The body is trying to stay alive, the cells are trying to do their job; but without sugar (because the door is locked, and insulin is the key), they can't. So they trigger the hunger response.and more food is consumed.

Not sure if High blood glucose alone would make her loose her appetite, there might be something else going on. Some cats struggle with their appetite when they are bouncing from low numbers to high numbers, but without knowing what results you are getting in your tests it's hard to say, have you tried setting up the ss to record your results?? here's a link explaining how it's a really good tool to allow the experienced users on this site to be able to offer advice setting up spreadsheet
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We have yet to perform a scale test which Im not looking forward too, but the paper punch will help guide me. I'm a master at fluid therapy for PKD and CRF and know alot about Kidney CRF cats. This is new too and I know ill be fine once I master this...or at least get comfortable. Im not freakin out as I know that anything new is difficult but I see it as an opportunity and challenge. I know that if she does lose a little more weight its okay. She was never really fat...max weight she was at was like 10.1 pounds, so, I think over the course of the past few years, I was just feeding her high carb food and because she is almost 18 yrs old, it taxed her system...But, who really knows...only the big guy up stairs.
 
Outcast said:
We have yet to perform a scale test which Im not looking forward too, but the paper punch will help guide me. I'm a master at fluid therapy for PKD and CRF and know alot about Kidney CRF cats. This is new too and I know ill be fine once I master this...or at least get comfortable. Im not freakin out as I know that anything new is difficult but I see it as an opportunity and challenge. I know that if she does lose a little more weight its okay. She was never really fat...max weight she was at was like 10.1 pounds, so, I think over the course of the past few years, I was just feeding her high carb food and because she is almost 18 yrs old, it taxed her system...But, who really knows...only the big guy up stairs.
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I'm sure you will be fine, as with anything new it takes time to assimilate the info and get into the swing of things, it will get easier:)

I know nothing about pkd or crf:eek: never had to deal with it, the thought of having to give sub cutaneous fluids would freak me out, cudos to you, but I know that if I had to for the sake of my furry friends I too would knukle down and master it:)
 
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