Newbie--insulin and food questions

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Garda

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Hello -- I am new here, but not new to Feline diabetes. Had 2 cats about 8 years ago that died from it. Now I have a Maine Coon Cross cat with it. He's 17.5 years old, has lost almost 5 pounds, down to 13. Having found the insulin treatments years ago to be negative experiences all around, not to mention expensive, I'm very reluctant to start this again. I want him to be comfortable and have good quality of life. His test at the vet last week came in at 710, up 200 points since the one 6 weeks ago.

Can feline diabetes ever be controlled without insulin? He drinks a lot of water, but it's not excessive as I've seen before. He's also not ravenously hungry and eating everything in sight as I've seen before. No problems with his back legs. Eyesight fine.

Re food: I note that so many of you here say to get your cat off dry food and go for low carb canned food. This is exactly the opposite of what my vet is saying! She says to wean them (I have 2 cats) off all canned food -- even though they've only had a quarter of a can each of Fancy Feast in several varieties -- and feed only dry Science Diet M/D Feline food which is formulated for diabetic cats! They eat it, but they want that Fancy Feast! I've also purchased Tiki Cat grain-free canned food. They'll eat some of that.

I have printed out your Fancy Feast low carb list and will use that as a reference. But what are your results? Is this truly all right to feed a diabetic cat?

I'm going out of town for a few days. The vet said when I get back next Tuesday that we need to discuss insulin treatment. She says that's best for him. My husband is against it because of the cost as well as the proper regulation which was a nightmare when we did it years ago. I'm so torn and it's just making me sick. The cat is wonderful!

Any insights you can give me will be so much appreciated. Thank you.
 
Re: insulin or not? That is the question!

A P.S. to my last post -- My cat's points went up 200 points *after* he started on the M/D dry cat food. This is why I'm so interested in what you all have to say about the canned/wet food. Thank you.
 
Re: insulin or not? That is the question!

Hi there,
I think you would get more responses if you started a new post (click on "new topic") with food question in the the title. You have piggy-backed on mine, and may not get as many readers this way.
I am no expert, but in my personal experience, the dry food sends the blood sugar WAY up. We have had very good results using Janet's list, and mostly use Fancy Feast without gluten. Also, when I first started testing I found it extremely difficult and frustrating, but after awhile I really got the hang of it and it was a pretty easy routine. Good luck!
Also--I think I should add again, I am no expert, but I think with those numbers you could quickly have a seriously ill cat. Do you know if there are ketones in the urine? There are people here who could advise you about the cheapest ways to get insulin.
 
Re: insulin or not? That is the question!

Thank you, Judy. This current situation is new to me, and now I have to go on a trip until Monday. I'll try what you said about starting a new topic. Thank you so much. Garda
 
Sounds like the Fancy Feast is the way to go, especially if your cats like it.

My cat wont eat wet food, so I give her EVO chicken and turkey low carb dry food. It is grain free.
 
Garda, you may see posts on this board that refer to dry food as "kitty crack," and the reason for this is it's bad for cats and sometimes very difficult to wean them from it.

You can look at Janet & Binky's food chart here http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm to see the variety of low-carb canned food that can be purchased economically (Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc.). A change in your cats diet will almost certainly result in lower BG numbers, but the question is will the food lower his BG out of the diabetic range? It is true that some of our cats have gone OTJ (off the juice) and into remission after a change in diet and short course of insulin, but there are no guarantees that will happen.

I know the cost of insulin can be an issue. Most of us here use longer-acting insulins like Lantus, Levemir, or PZI. These insulins are also much less harsh that some insulins that have been given our cats (vetsulin, for example). I would encourage you to consider incorporating insulin into you cat's treatment - not only does it treat the current diabetes, but may increase the changes he can go OTJ in the future.
 
No one has given your Dr. Lisa's website yet: http://www.catinfo.org She explains why wet lo carb food is so much better than dry. (She's an experienced FD vet.) Our experience was that Oliver's blood glucose levels went down 100 points overnight when we switched from dry to wet.
 
I have to urge you to get your cat on insulin as soon as you return. This is from the Feline Diabetes "what is feline Diabetes" page:

What is Feline Diabetes?

Diabetes mellitus, or "sugar" diabetes, is a common disorder in cats and dogs, caused by the inability of the hormone insulin to properly balance blood sugar (glucose) levels. Glucose is processed by the body into energy. After food is digested, glucose enters the blood stream -- in a healthy body, insulin is then secreted signaling the cells to begin the process of converting the sugars into useable energy. As more food is consumed, more insulin is secreted, and the needed glucose is consumed. The pancreas secretes small amounts of insulin -- just enough to ensure blood glucose levels don't rise too high (hyperglycemia) or fall dangerously low (hypoglycemia).

Type 1 diabetes occurs when the pancreas doesn't produce enough insulin, and type 2 when the body's cells don't respond well to insulin. Both result in high blood sugar levels because the body is unable to process the available glucose. In the early stages, diabetics may gain weight as appetites increase and their insulin levels rise and fall. However, in spite of maintaining a good appetite, diabetics ultimately lose weight since the body isn't able to process sugars into energy. Essentially, diabetics begin to starve to death.
Click to expand...

If you don't treat you cat, he will slowly starve to death. I'm sure you don't want that. So please start treatment as soon as possible! There are better insulins available now than you might have tried in the past.

There are ways to keep costs down. Home testing will save on vet bills, if you use lantus or levemir you can buy the pens (but still use syringes) to make the insulin last longer. There are many tricks to help with cost.
 
Insulin and food questions

Thank you all for posting here. I am back. Hooter is off dry food, and has gained a little weight. Much less drinking, and much lighter weight and size urine chunks in the litter box. I had a meeting with my vet; she said if that works go for it, but still she thinks it's all right if they have a small amount of the dry food every day. Both cats have only begged at the pantry door for that twice (even while they had good canned food in their bowls!).

We talked about another form of insulin -- the pills. Since Hooter gets too stressed on pills, I didn't want to do that. She said if I decided to go that way to try crushing them up in his wet food. He might take that. We'll be getting another test for him to see how he's doing on this canned food diet. Believe me he looks and acts better already! I think it's all thanks to what I've learned on this site from all of you having similar experiences. I wouldn't have had the courage to do all this without your support -- especially since I was going out of town for a few days. I'm going again next week for 4 days, then I'll be home for a long time. As long as Hooter is happy and feels good, I can feel all right about going away. The Vet knows what I'm doing now and supports the process. Still, with the next test we will make the insulin decision.

Thank you again!
Garda (& Hooter)
 
Garda, with the numbers you posted, has your vet mentioned testing the urine for ketones? This is really important when the blood glucose is running so high.

Also, does Hooter get nervous at the vet's office? "Vet stress" can elevate numbers.

You can test Hooter's blood glucose at home by purchasing an inexpensive glucometer. This will save a lot of money because you won't need the vet to do it and you will not put Hooter through the "vet stress". There's information on hometesting in the health links section of the index.

If you're not yet giving Hooter insulin, I wouldn't allow a single morsel of dry food if I could help it. It elevates the blood sugar and it sticks around in the system for a bit. It's just not a good thing to do for your kitty's health.

I don't believe the pills are effective. If you're going to treat, insulin is the way to go. As mentioned above, there are long lasting insulins out there and you can go to Insulin Support Groups and click on the various forums to read about the different types. In fact, you're vet can read about them, as well, if need be.

I hope the blood sugar is going down, but I highly suggest testing Hooter at home to see what's going on. Even low carb food elevates the blood sugar for a little while...2-3 hours, so if you do test, do it when Hooter hasn't eaten. If you can, do it within an hour after eating and then again several hours later to see if Hooter is able to bring himself down.

Hope things work out for you, but I also hope you consider the insulin treatment. Calliope was 500 at the vet's office. With a little lantus for less than 3 weeks and a diet change, she went off the juice. Again, that's not a guarantee, but it's a possibility and there's an even stronger possibility that regulation can be achieved. It's not really a hard thing to do once you get into the habit of testing and shooting. It becomes like brushing your teeth and getting a happy kitty out of the deal!
 
The pills (Glipizide) does more harm than good. It destroys whatever healthy beta cells that is left in the pancrease which prety much ruins any chance for good blood glucose control and even remission.

Insulin is a hormone, not a drug. Treating your cat with twice daily insulin injections gives the pancrease a break from trying to make its own insulin. Injections don't hurt at all and many cats don't even notice it. A quick prick of the skin and quick press of the plunger and you're done :smile: Members here can provide tips on how to keep a cat still long enough for the insulin injection.
 
I've given insulin shots several years ago to two cats. I can do the poking all right, and they didn't care, but both cats did not regulate at all, seemed sicker most of the time, and I blamed myself. This is why I'm so reluctant to get into this. That and the cost. Thanks for the information on the pills -- had no idea! I will avoid those. The vet said I could test for ketones with strips and special kitty litter. However, I have two cats using the same box, and we think we wouldn't get a correct reading.

Yes, Hooter has "vet stress" big time. So I believe the tests are not completely accurate to begin with. We're going back into the Vet's in another week for a test. Then we'll probably go into treatment with insulin. I need another job!! <g>

Thank you all again!
Garda & Hooter
 
The insulin you used for the other cats, may not have been the right type of insulin for them.
I got very bad results with Humulin N and now I am trying Lantus. So far results are not as irratic and so I am hopeful.

Regarding getting a urine sample.
I just put a seperate litter box in another room, a bowl of water, and the one cat I want to test and close the door.
 
I don't know how long ago you lost your other two precious kitties to FD, what food you were feeding them, what insulin you were on etc..., BUT, we can help you try to treat, here on the forum. There's so much information here and so many folks who have been doing this for years and years. I don't know about your vet, but mine has treated FD, but not that much. My town is not large enough for her to have had that many FD patients. She learned some new things from me! She wanted me to feed the dry prescription foods. I returned them and used the fancy feast low carb wets. Now, she gets the list of my foods from me to recommend them to other clients. The point is that you can give it the old college try with the folks here on the forum helping you with suggestions.

How about this? Call your vet and ask what insulin he would prescribe if you decide to use one. Come back here and let us know and we can point you where you can learn about that insulin. Some cats do best on one kind and some on another type, but you may prefer a longer lasting insulin like lantus or levemir to start, this time, if you haven't used those before. It's workable and we can suggest ways to save money during treatment. Hometesting yourself is certainly one way and it keeps the kitties safe in addition to arming you with data to make dosing decisions and get suggestions on those from people here.

That vet number is so high. You could consider asking for a frustosamine test which would give you an idea of the history of the numbers kitty has had over a period of time.

You will not be alone in trying to treat if you hang around here and let us try and answer your questions and help you educate yourself along the way. I am forever grateful that I made that choice the night before I was going to let Calliope go. I didn't think I could do it, but I decided to try and it worked out better than I could have ever expected with the people here walking me through.
 
Hi again,

Yes, Hooter has already had the fructosamine test. That was after he'd had the initial test, then changed to the M/D dry cat food, and that's when his numbers shot up another 200 points! And that's when I found this group, thankfully! He'd lost 5 pounds! Once I got rid of that dry food and began the Fancy Feast and Tiki Cat appropriate canned foods, I could tell he began to feel better. Less drinking, less huge urination clumps in the litter box, and I can feel that he's gained some weight. When I reported that to the Vet, she said we could wait another 2 weeks for the next test -- unless something was obviously wrong. She did say he should have some of that dry food in addition to the canned food, and also said she knew he was "unregulated". So...I tried adding a little of that dry food once a day again. I could tell his personality changed; he acted different and he cried out a lot more often and loudly. So I took it away once again. He's much better, and I know that. We'll see what the next test brings. If I have to do the insulin, I will ask about the Lantus. Many of you here seem to think it's good. If you have any other ideas, you know I'm open to hearing them.

Welcome, Carolyn! You will acquire a wealth of information from this group!!

Garda & Hooter
 
He might be fine waiting 2 weeks, or not.....honestly, waiting doesn't help, it usually hurts. higher blood glucose levels do damage, and the body starts paying the price. getting on insulin quicker really will help, despite the experience you had in the past. He can develop ketones, he can become inappetant and develop fatty liver, his pancreas will sustain more damage and be less likely to go into remission...I know this is not what you want to hear but we are here to help!
 
I'm glad to hear that Hooter is feeling better.

Until you decide on insulin or get the RX for it, I would highly suggest that you consider starting hometesting right away. There are several advantages. One is that you can keep an eye on what the blood glucose is running, at home, without the vet stress involved and you can report those numbers to your vet. You will also see what they are on the wet low carb food only, as opposed to the dry MD. Also, you and Hooter will be well trained in testing by the time you start insulin and that's a good thing.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, you need to know if Hooter is still in high numbers because you really need to be testing for ketones if that's the case on no insulin.

I hope you'll consider these suggestions to keep Hooter as safe as possible and to collect some helpful data.
 
I'm going to 2nd or 3rd (or whatever it is at this point) the suggestion that you home test. I think it's pretty safe to assume at this point that your vet's recommendations aren't really working out for you.

I know the feeling of not wanting to know--that it's less stressful that way in a sense, but in this case, it is kind of dangerous not to know. Not to scare you, but he's no spring chicken and spilling glucose does effect those things that are most vulnerable in an older kitty like the kidneys.

And testing isn't as bad as it seems. My cat, who's very particular, was fine with it once I was. When she sees me coming with a dose of medicine destined for her mouth she runs for the hills, but I can pull out the meter and even click the lancing device without her batting an eye.

Glad to hear he seems to be feeling better and good luck.
 
Hi there,

710 is incredibly high. My cat now likes the dry Natura/Innova (EVO) Turkey & Chicken Formula dry cat food. Low in carbs. He didn't take to it right away, but now really likes it. We've tried many, many can food brands/flavors. At first he liked the Natura/Innova can catfood and seemed to like Natures Variety Instinct Rabbit Formula flavor and Fancy Feast Tender Liver & Chicken Feast Classic (no wheat gluten).

Good luck.

Lisa
 
Thank you, All! What is the testing device I need to get? You mented a "meter" and "lancing device". What are those? Do I get them from the Vet or the drug store? Thank you!!! Garda
 
Garda said:
Thank you, All! What is the testing device I need to get? You mented a "meter" and "lancing device". What are those? Do I get them from the Vet or the drug store? Thank you!!! Garda
Click to expand...

You get them from the drugstore. Just a "regular" glucose meter and strips (used for humans) and lancets (used to poke the ear for the blood sample). Personally, I would want to know *now* what is going on.

As also has been said, you should also buy a bottle of Ketostix to monitor for ketones. An unregulated diabetic without insulin is at great risk of developing ketones/ DKA, which is a horrendous and potentially fatal side effect of diabetes - it's far too serious to ignore, so please pick those up ASAP. http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

Good luck.
 
Here is some info to get you started on hometesting: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm and the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 Depending on the cat, it is not always as easy as it looks on the video, but we all have tricks that helped us. Come on for ideas/advice; we will walk you through it.

Try the meter on yourself so you know exactly how it works. Make up a rice sack to warm the ear (thinnish sock filled with raw rice, knotted and heated in microwave until very warm but not hot). Many newbie cats need warm ears to get the blood flowing.
 
Helping Hooter Gain Weight Now

Hi Again,

This group was SO helpful, that I am back again for more information. First, Hooter has been back to the vet again for his maintenance antibiotic for ongoing teeth problems. His ears have completely cleared and stayed that way for a coupleof months, I'm happy to say. Thanks to a lot of the advice here, I have changed Hooter's food, no dry and no M/D, took the Fancy Feast list and have purchased only those types on it. No insulin, and no more testing. He's almost 18. He has begun playing ball again, and batting around his old catnip sock. He's feeling much, much better, doesn't hang out by the dog's water dish anymore.

The Vet is now onboard with doing this through diet and is fully supportive. BUT, the problem is now that he's lost too much weight, and she'd like for him to gain at least a pound. Do you all have ways of helping a diabetic cat gain weight? He eats as much as he wants. He gets me up in the night for more food, so I've begun giving him the full can before I go to bed. (Problem is the second cat; she doesn't need to gain weight!) Is there something more I can do for him during the day that will help him gain a little weight?

Thanks so much in advance. Your advice has truly helped Hooter!
Garda
 
Have you tested his blood glucose levels lately? Even though he is feeling better and looking better, he could still have diabetic numbers. I can't tell from your previous posts whether you gave insulin at all, or whether you hometest. Please fill us in.
 
Are you home testing? If you can post the BG numbers you are seeing now for Hooter, you can get even more advice here.
I am sure that a change of food will have made a great difference, and his BG numbers may be much lower, but you need to know if he needs insulin or not.

If Hooter's numbers are still high and he needs to get insulin, I don't think you will have much luck in getting him to gain some weight.
 
Then you really have no way of knowing whether your kitty is still diabetic or not. If he is, and is not being treated with insulin, his body is not processing food and his weight could be that he is literally starving.

If he were my cat, I would test him and find out. you could do it today and know.
 
Hi Garda and Hooter,

If your kitty is diabetic and not being treated, then gaining weight might not be possible. Insulin in our bodies acts like a key... it opens up the door to our cells so that our body gets the nutrients that it needs. Without insulin (made by our bodies or from a shot) we end up using our fat reserves because our cells cannot get those nutrients... this is where ketones come into play.. they are a result of using primarily fat cells for nutrition.

this is why many undiagnosed or untreated diabetic cats eat and eat and eat and lose lots of weight... they are starving because they do not have the insulin they need to use the food they eat.

my kitty is eating fancy feast too. we currently using Humulin N insulin... it was $35 at walmart... we keep it in the fridge and it should last at least few months. the syringes were maybe $15 for 100? can't remember cause it felt like the $ was just flying out of my hands at that point between the vet visits and dental problems.

we bought a meter for $7... a box of 100 thin lancets for $7. The strips for the meter are a little pricey $50 for 100, but i know some folks have found meters that use strips for as low as $25 for 100... again at walmart. some days i use 2 strips... one before he eats and gets his shot. since i have been testing at home he has not had to go back to the vet (i do the curves on my day off and send them the #'s). our vet is great and will talk with us over the phone if something is going on.

there is also a link on this site somewhere for coupons for insulin and syringes... if interested i can find it again for you. i know it is a lot of money... it certainly is for us but we have "found it" somehow. i really don't know how as i am on a fixed income and our budget is pretty tight, but we have. ( i am not saying this will be the case with you... no judgement here cause i know just how tight money can be)

Lulu has also changed in the ways your kitty has after some work with his teeth and changing his diet, but i believe it is the insulin that is helping him gain weight. he's part maine coon too... used to 22 lbs and got down to a scary 14.8 and now he's gaining and we are much relieved.

i know you love Hooter and he's almost 18, and these are big decisions, but i hate to think about your kitty starving to death, and that is what diabetes will do if he is as you are saying... eating plenty and losing weight.
 
I'm sorry, you may think you are doing your cat a favour by not giving insulin but this is nuts. Your vet needs to test him to see if he is running at diabetic or non diabetic levels, otherwise he'll starve and/or die from complications like ketones, etc. This isn't right..please do what is right and get him tested.

Jen
 
I would find a new vet! One who doesnt want to test and keep an eye on the cat after such high numbers is not, imo, a good vet. If I had listened to my vet when Splodge was first dx, he would probably be dead now!

Home testing can be nearly as good for your health as it is for the cat, as you dont put yourself through all the stress of wondering, all the time.

As for the dried food. Im in the DONT feed it camp. Splodge became diabetic after a diet of dried food and (stolen) rolled barley. After changing him to low carb wet food and AB's for a mouth problem, he went OTJ very quickly and has been diet controlled up until a couple of weeks ago. He has dental problems again now and is back on insulin, but Im hoping not for too long!
 
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