Newbie--help!

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Scout

Member Since 2013
Hi there,
I just want to reach out because I am at a loss of what to do next. My boy, Scout, was diagnosed in February. 2 curves and 4 fructosamine tests later the vet just called to tell me his numbers haven't moved (they're in the 400s) and we're about to bump him up to 8 units a day (4 units every 12 hours). Our vet said that the dry food we've been feeding him is fine (we feed Purina One Healthy Weight formula) but today after hearing his numbers haven't changed I mentioned that I'm going to switch him to Merrick BG dry food and she thinks it's a good brand choice. I have TRIED my hardest to get him to switch to wet, but he turns his nose up at it. And I feel like SOMETHING is better than nothing. We can't give him his insulin if he doesn't eat. And he WILL NOT eat wet food. I've wasted about 5 cans of DM trying to force him to eat. I was also told that the Fancy Feast canned food is very low quality and should NOT be feeding it to him.

I just don't know what to do. If in 2 weeks his numbers are still the same we will need to switch insulin brands and start the process all over again. I don't want to do that to him. The cost is nothing compared to him being healthy. I just need some advice.
 
I'm sure the high-carb dry food is not helping his numbers at all.
Are you testing his BG (blood glucose) at home? That's really important. Some vets don't mention it and others don't encourage it, but it's really quite essential. If you don't test BG before every shot, then you don't know if it's safe to give the shot or not. If BG is less than 200, you probably don't want to give insulin at this point. Home testing is really pretty easy - it just takes practice. You will also be able to get more accurate BG readings at home because your kitty won't be stressed out. You can even save money, because you can run BG curves at home without all the trips to the vet.

It's also important if you are planning to switch his food to anything lower-carb than you feed right now. When a cat's carb load decreases, their BG can also decrease significantly. This could require a significant drop in insulin dosage. If you aren't testing, you wouldn't see their BG drop and you could accidentally give them too much insulin. That could send them into hypoglycemic crisis or even kill them.

You can get a human meter for testing. They do sell pet-specific meters, but these are very expensive to purchase and supply. They aren't all that much more accurate, either. The ReliOn brand of human meters at Walmart are quite affordable and very reliable. They also have some of the cheapest test strips around. If you wanted to shop online, you could click the link above to go to American Diabetes Wholesale. That's where I got my meter (Arkray Glucocard Vital) and my strips. You would also need lancets (I use 28-29 gauge). Someone here has an excellent shopping list...I'm sure she'll be along or I will find it sooner or later....

Wet food is better, for a number of reasons, but sometimes it takes a lot of effort to get them to switch. In the meantime, there are some manageable alternatives. EVO Cat & Kitten and Wellness CORE Original are two that you can probably find at a pet food store. Young Again is an online-only company. They make a low-carb and a zero-carb dry food.
Fancy Feast is just fine to feed your cat. Lots of us here feed that with no problems whatsoever. Friskies, too. My vet hates them both, but they really are appropriate for diabetics, and some of the more affordable options out there. I feed the best that I can afford to...And my Chester is bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and happy.
 
Okay first off what insulin are you using right now for him?

Second Fancy Feast is fine to feed a diabetic cat as long as it is the Classics. I have 2 diabetics one has been in remission and off insulin for the last 2+ years eating just good old fashioned Friskies Pate Style canned catfood and his Adopted Sister Autumn is well regulated on Fancy Feast Classics as she is allergic to all grains. Both Fancy Feast Classics and Friskies Pate have better quality ingredients than DM, which is liver based which most cats either won't eat or won't eat for long. If fact I have 14 cats and every single one of them turned up their noses at the DM after the novelty of it wore off. So it may not be the fact that he won't eat low carb wet, he just doesn't want to eat nasty DM. Also before going to Merrick BG dry I would try him on the canned version first to see if he will eat that. There is an excellent food chart at http://www.catinfo.org as well as why dry food is a poor choice of diet for any cat let alone a diabetic one written by a vet that posts here from time to time.

Third almost all dry food is not only way to high in carbs for a diabetic cat, it is a moisture depleting diet and can cause a host of other health problems long term. But if he absolutely refuses to eat canned and you have to feed a dry food, several folks here have really good results with Young Again Zero Carbs dry food, but I believe you need to order it online.

Fourth, rather than spending a ton of money having the vet run curves and test and stressing your buddy out with all those trips to the vet's (stress raises BGs) you could simply purchase a human glucometer and test him at home, which is really the best way to keep him safe while he is on insulin anyhow. And we can help you learn how to do it, we have taught hundreds over the internet and if you have problems you can always post your general location (city, state) and we will try to round up an experienced member in your area to pop by and give you some hands on help. :-D

And Lastly....WELCOME TO FDMB FAMILY!!!! The best place you never wanted to be but will be so glad you found.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Thanks guys! Very helpful info!

I bought Fancy Feast Classics in 3 flavors and he doesn't like any of them. Chicken, turkey and beef. I've tried the Merrick BG canned (chicken) as well and he didn't like that either. I keep trying though!! I'm not giving up! I've gone as far as locking him in a room with his bowl until he's eaten his food. I should mention that I have 3 other cats and they like to go after his untouched portion if we're not watching. My husband and I both work a M-F 8-5 job, so we do our best to monitor as much as we can. Does ANYONE here leave out a little bit of dry food for their cat to graze on during the day?

He is currently on Lantus.

I would love to start home monitoring, but am SO nervous to start poking at him when I don't know what I'm doing. I asked the vet today and she doesn't recommend I home test because I could really hurt him. I'm in central OH. If anyone in my area is willing to come help me, that would be wonderful. Or at least if there is another vet that is better for me to bring him too; I will absolutely try anything!

Jen & Scout
 
Hi Scout,

I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. I hope, with the help of the wonderful people on this board, that you'll be able to get Scout regulated.

I just wanted to chime in and let you know there is a lot of good, high-quality cat food that is low carb. You don't need to go with the DM wet food but can try other brands, to see whether Scout prefers them. I'll often give Wellness Core (the grain free varieties) and Merrick brands (Turducken, Grammy's Pot Pie, and Cowboy Cookout are all low carb; they also have a line called BG that are very, very low carb). In addition, Wellness Core makes, if I recall, a dry food that is low carb. It may be worth trying, if Scout absolutely refuses any wet. Wet is preferable, but if it's not a viable option then low carb dry seems like the next best thing. (Though, as others have noted, testing is important when you switch foods, since a change in diet alone can really effect BG numbers.)

Beyond that, as others have said, doing checks of the blood glucose prior to tests and (ideally) sometimes around the nadir of the cycle will help you figure out whether Scout is never dropping much or whether he's dropping low and then bouncing to a higher number in reaction to the low numbers. (My Dusty bounces a lot. Yesterday, preshot, she was in the high 200's. She dropped fairly quickly, though, and last night was in the 70's for several hours. When I tested her this morning she was back up to the mid 300's. While I don't like those high preshot numbers, I'm comforted by the fact that she *is* dropping during her cycle. The insulin is working. Had I not tested her mid-cycle, I would have worried that she had stayed high all night.)

About being nervous about testing -- I was too but really, within three or four days it became pretty natural. Now I can test basically in my sleep. As for hurting the cat - you won't. You test in the ear and even if you hit the little vein, there just isn't enough blood that comes out to cause any harm at all to your cat. Sure, it'll be stressful for you both initially...but then it gets easier and just a part of life. (Giving treats is a great way to make Scout like the tests! I shake the bag of treats (freeze dried chicken) when I want to test and Dusty comes running up.)

Good luck with everything and keep asking as many questions as you need! There are a lot of really, really wonderful people on the site who are a fantastic resource.
 
As a matter of fact I think I DO know a couple of members in Columbus Ohio...let me send them a private message and point them in the right direction to your post. :-D I believe either one of them would be excellent to pop over and give you and Scout a hand on learning the ropes of home testing. Little far for me, as I'm in Nebraska, but let me see what I can do to get you some more local help. :-D And home testing on their ears really doesn't hurt them at all, if you look at my signature you will see my Autumn's spreadsheet...for every number listed there she has been poked in the ear and her ears are still as lovely as they were the first day I laid eyes on her (I adopted her as a diabetic).

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
First, WELCOME!

I asked the vet today and she doesn't recommend I home test because I could really hurt him.
Click to expand...

This always makes me laugh...you will too shortly.... :smile: Of COURSE she doesn't recommend home testing, she likes your money! BUT to be fair, a LOT of vets don't know HOW to test like we do - they draw venous blood THEN use a meter about like a human meter. THAT'S why they say it's too hard and you could hurt him. We use capillary blood with human meters. She'll argue that they aren't calibrated for pets...of course we know that! So, to compensate, when using a human meter, the 'normal' range is 50-120 while a pet meter is 80-150. Difference of about 30 points....pretty easy math if you ask me.

Other food is junk
Click to expand...

She has a good pet food route salesman if she truly believes that...his boss would be proud of him!

HUGS! This does NOT have to break the bank!...but warning - WILL cut down on vet bills.... :-D
 
AH! You guys are so helpful! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. You're really setting my mind at ease.

MommaOfMuse that would be awesome!! Thanks so much! I'll make sure to get a home test this weekend. Is the ReliOn a good monitor to get? Anything else I should get with it?
 
Bless you, the guys here are great on the technical stuff, I just wanted to say hi and don't panic, stick in with these guys (they know their stuff) and Scout will get better soon and you will see those numbers drop.

If you look at my spreadsheet in my signature you will see the difference that changing food can make to your readings. At the moment, kitty needs to eat, but I would try the methods of transitioning to wet (there is a link somewhere but I don't know where as I am pretty new around here).

As for your vet saying you will hurt him - that's a bit harsh! Anyone can learn to home test - I have taught my parents and my husband to help me with my cat, and he willingly jumps onto the stool where we prick his ear to be done - he knows the drill and he knows he gets fed afters too! Vets can be a bit nervous of you home testing as the fear is often that you will adjust the dose without consulting them? I find great comfort in being able to check and monitor his numbers and the flucosamine tests are a useful indicator but no more (and they are also expensive!!)

Hang around and do your research on here - it pays :) Good luck!
 
ReliOn Confirm uses the smallest amount of blood; the strips are a tad more expensive than a ReliOn model which uses more blood. If finances are tight, you might go with the mones that use the more inexopensive test strips.

I'll pm you - I'm in Columbus, OH. My piano student cancelled tonight, so I could come tonight.

I feed Friskies pates to all 14 of the cats in my house and put the food down twice a day; it sits out until it is gone and no one is having a problem with that. In fact, a few of them like it dryer *snort*

By the way, NorthArlington Vet Clinic - 614-457-4636 - is supportive of home testing, if you need a 2nd opinion, and athey re fairly up to date.
 
Found this shopping list by Courtney and Kismet for new members. It is out on google docs also.

This is a basic list of all the supplies you will need to start home testing and treating your diabetic cat. I'm not promoting any brands here, and have only included suggestions based on my own personal experience. Just make sure that you buy matching test strips for whatever glucometer you get.

The list is also attached as a word doc which can be downloaded and printed. The list can also be accessed via Google Docs anytime from anywhere. New Member Shopping List Please feel free to share with newbies.

New Member Shopping List

1) Glucometer. Walmart’s ReliOn meters are a popular choice on FDMB. The ReliOn Prime’s test strips are only $9 for a bottle of 50.
2) Test Strips to go with your new Glucometer. Make sure you have plenty of extra strips at all times. You do not want to run out when your cat suddenly decides to take a swan dive to the 40’s.
3) Lancets. Make sure you get plenty of lancets. Get a thicker gauge ( 28 gauge) at first so that it is easier to get a blood drop to form.
4) Cotton Balls/Tissues/Cosmetic pads to hold against the inside of the ear when testing and to staunch blood after poke. I use a clean, wadded up tissue.
5) Antibacterial Ointment. Neosporin with pain relief or any ointment like it. Rub on kitty's ear after poking. Make sure you get an ointment, not a cream.
6) Ketone Test Strips such as Ketostix. These are urine strips to test for Ketones and can be found at most pharmacies or Walmart. Some glucometers will also accept ketone blood test strips. This is a good alternative for those with a multi-cat household or who have a hard time catching a urine sample.
7) Low Carbohydrate Wet Food. See Dr. Pierson’s list for commercial cat foods. It is recommended that diabetics eat less that 10% carbs. http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf Some popular brands fed by members include Fancy Feast Classic Pates, Friskies Pates, Wellness, Evo, and Merrick's Before Grain. Find a food that is nutritionally sound and affordable. There's no need to break the bank or buy Rx food.
8) High Carbohydrate Wet Food. Keep a couple of cans on hand for emergencies in case your cat's BG drops too low. Look for a wet food with gravy. See Dr. Lisa’s chart above for a food over 10% carbs.
9) Corn Syrup or Honey. Corn syrup (such as Karo) and Honey can be used in place of the HC wet food by mixing a drop or two into LC wet food. It’s a good idea to have some in addition to HC food in the case of emergency. If your cat goes into a hypo coma, or refuses to eat, you can rub karo directly onto their gums.
10) Diabetic appropriate treats. Freeze dried chicken and turkey are popular with most kitties.
11) A Sharps Container to hold used syringes and lancets. I use an old laundry detergent bottle. Make sure you check local regulations on disposal of sharps.
12) Chocolate/candy/wine/your favorite treat. For you!
13) Rice to make a rice sock. (optional.) Fill a clean sock with rice and tie it off. The rice sock can be heated in the microwave and then pressed against kitty's ear to encourage bleeding. Some members use a warm washcloth or paper towel as alternatives.
Click to expand...

Here is the link to the google docs version: https://docs.google.com/document/d/...aQmg3s18XJdhldhDKIjCsw/edit?usp=sharing&pli=1
 
Here is the link for transitioning dry food addicts to wet food.

http://www.catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf

I used a lot of these tips and tricks to transition my shelter foster kitty Wink from dry to wet. It took 3 weeks which was really fast. He was and still is a dry food addict. :o

One day, I was getting rid of every bit of dry food in the house and had left a bag of dry in the hallway to go grab another bag. In less than 2 minutes, he had ripped hugh holes in the bag so he could get to the dry food. :o :o :shock: This was probably 6 weeks after he had been on a wet food only diet.

It takes time, patience, commitment, perseverence and a little bit of luck even using all the trick in this document from Dr Lisa Piersen to get a cat to switch. My best advice? Don't give up.
 
Per the no off board advising and due to an impediment to a home visit, I sent to her by pm:

Practice on an apple then.
Take out a lancet.
Twist off the cover.
Hold the apple in your non-dominent hand (usually your left hand).
Hold the lancet in your other hand.
Roll the hand with the lancet so that the needle pricks the apple.
The amount of resistance will be similar to testing on your cat.
 
When Tiggy was first diagnosed I took dr Piersons list (posted above by deb and wink) to the pet store and bought two cans of everything under 8%carbs and tried them all till I found something he would eat consistently. Quite often he would eat the first can but not the second until I found he liked wellness turkey and chicken grain free, and anything fancy feast. It can be trial and error at first.

Also I second and third home testing, it keeps them safe and saves you money too!
 
We were able to meet at the local WalMart Friday evening.

Per board policy (no off board advising), here is a synopsis of the meeting.

We discussed:

- Food, with note that Cat Info has details on calculating calories needed. Focusing on switch to canned when she can monitor for low glucose levels.

- test supplies and tactics; referral to our shopping partner, ADW, for bulk testing supplies that work with the ReliOn Confirm, aka Glucocard 01 meter. (Link at top of most pages)
- - testing before shots; testing around possible nadir between +5 to +7 hours after shot

- ideas for civvie with possible IBS, to discuss with vet
- - FortiFlora to replenish good bacteria after course of metronidazole (Flagyl)
- - exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (too little pancreatic enzymes)
- - EPI post with resources
- - Merck Veterinar Manual on EPI
- - A post on the enzymes that might be tried empirically (without more expensive tests, if vet agrees it wouldn't hurt)
 
Hi Jen and Scout and welcome! :YMHUG:

I just wanted to add one small thing: if your Walmart doesn't carry the ReliOn Confirm, the ReliOn Micro is comparable. It only uses 0.3ul of blood (same as the Confirm and even the same strips). When I was first starting out, I went to 3 different Walmarts in my area and wasted a week looking for the Confirm (which none of them sold) before I figured this out. ;-)
 
Not good. The home testing is a no go. I'm returning the monitor. We've gone through all 20 strips with not one reading. We poked his poor ears, like, 100 times and we couldn't get enough blood. We tried everything. Warming it up did nothing.

Thanks for all the advice, but we're just going to continue bringing him to the vet every 2 weeks. We have no other option.

As far as his diet goes: we're currently switching him to Wellness Core Adult dry food (a very small amount for him to graze on during the day) and Fancy Feast Classics canned food. We're working on getting him up to 12 oz a day (since he's a 12lbs cat) Right now he eats about 6 oz a day with 1 cup of his old dry food (1/2 cup) mixed with the Wellness dry food(1/2 cup). And he's still getting his 8 units of Lantus per day. He's doing better with the canned food.

He goes to the vet next Thursday for another glucosamine test.
 
I'm so sorry things aren't going well! I noticed no one has linked this fantastic ear testing document for you yet. Maybe it might help with some of the problems you're having? Are you using the lancing device with the lancet or using the lancet free-hand or have you tried both? Please let us know if there's anything we might be able to help with. :YMHUG:
 
Aww, so sorry to hear about your frustrations. I have a blond kitty named Sunny who I had a great deal of trouble testing at first (same as you, poked the poor ears over and over and couldn't get enough blood). Every time that dang error came up on the monitor my wife and I would get more panicky, and hearing him cry and growl made it even worse.

I'm by no means a pro, but let me make a few friendly suggestions (which you are welcome to ignore) ;-)
- Ask your vet if you can watch them take the first BG reading next time you bring your kitty in. Just seeing that it *can* be done is a big help.
- Get in touch with your inner Zen if/when you try again. If you don't get it in the first 2-3 sticks, give a treat, some pets, and laugh it off.
- For me, it's soooo important that I stay relaxed while doing it. I seriously force myself to take slow, deep breaths and talk in a soothing voice about what a good boy Sunny is.
- There *is* a sweet spot on those precious little ears that will give up the right amount of blood. For me, it was an "ah ha" moment after looking at a lot of pictures (the one at catinfo.org in the diabetes section is good).
- At first, I was poking the edge of his ear furthest from his nose towards the ear's tip. The vein runs there too, but for the life of me I couldn't get him to bleed there. When I tried the other edge (closer to his nose) about 2/3 of the way up to the tip, suddenly I got a nice drop that immediately filled the strip. You can imagine what a good feeling it is to fill one of those suckers on the first stick after seeing so many errors.
- It also helped me a lot to hold a cotton ball firmly on the other side of his ear when I stuck him and to be sure the ear was stretched "taut" across the cotton while I stuck. I practiced this "hold" for awhile without even sticking him, just to get him used to it. He likes me rubbing his ears and cheeks with the cotton too. ;-)
- At first, I was also too cautious with my sticking. Obviously you have to be reasonable with it, but for me there was a tendency to barely tap the ear with the lancet and pull away fast. I was only barely breaking the skin. It was much harder on Sunny when I did 5-10 of those tentative jabs instead of 1 firm stick at a 45 degree angle.
- After sticking, I learned that for Sunny, trying to restrain him to get the blood sets off alarms for him to flee and struggle. Now I just continue to sit next to him on the floor and firmly pet his back (to take the mind off any stinging) while I watch the drop of blood develop. Once I'm confident that it's enough, I hold the monitor up to the drop, being careful not to touch his ear with it, and voila!
- I then put pressure on the wound with the cotton ball for 10 seconds and we're done! Treat time, hugs and praises!

I'm so sorry that your vet made you afraid that you would hurt your cat. I'm trying to think of how you *could* cause serious harm with a lancet to the ear... It's just not possible unless you get very imaginative, and to be honest I'm a little insulted on your behalf that she thinks you could!

We want to trust our vets (after all, they're doctors with way more education in feline health than any of us have), but the truth is they aren't infallible. My vet let Sunny go over a year on dry DM food without giving us the slightest warning that it had so many carbs and that by switching to canned we could drastically improve his health. I'm not saying don't trust your vet when it comes down to concrete stuff. Just know that vets are people, and people have varying opinions on things, some of which are right and some of which aren't.

We all have to be our kitty's best advocate because we love them and they can't advocate for themselves. The only explanation I can give for vets who poo-poo good nutrition or home testing is that they become so used to seeing cats live and die everyday that some of them start to not sweat the small stuff, thinking that ultimately it won't make that much difference. I can't imagine that they are motivated by greed (getting you in for the testing), but maybe I'm naive. Maybe they start to view owners who care as much as we do as nuts.

Have you tried putting a few nuggets of dry food in with the canned? How long did you wait to see if your kitty would eat it before putting down dry? I would talk some more to your vet about diet - maybe just say, "I want to get my cat onto a canned diet due to the health benefits of lower carbs, can you give some suggestions to help me do that safely?"

Definitely read Dr. Lisa's page on transitioning dry food addicts at catinfo.org. Her entire website is a treasure trove of good info, and honestly I trust her more than my own vet because she gives scientifically-sound arguments backed up by research. There's even a packet you can print out of scholarly articles advocating home testing to politely show your vet.

Don't give up and feel like you have to put your cat's *entire* life in the vet's hands. I only say this from experience, because I did just that for over a year and it wasn't until very recently that I took the diet and home testing advice to heart, and have seen *amazing* results.

Best wishes to you and your kitty! You both can do it!
 
Now I remember that a few days ago, member BJM offered to teach you to home test. Maybe send a PM and ask for help on the testing? It can work and having someone more experienced show you can make all the difference.

It takes time to learn to home test, sometimes a couple of weeks.

Maybe if you described what you are doing we could give you some pointers?

Please don't get discouraged. We can see how much you love your cat and want to help him.

ETA: My avatar is Wink a dyed in the wool dry food addict. The transition from dry to wet takes time and many of the tricks from Dr Lisa Pierson's transitioning dry food addicts do work. I probably used 15 of those tricks to convince Wink that wet food was edible and good for him. ohmygod_smile
 
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