New with a couple of questions

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lildude

lildude

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Hi. My name is Robin. I am a mommy to three wonderful kitties (tho we have six total in our home). My sweet kitty Lil Dude is around ten years old and was diagnosed with diabetes a couple of months back. I wish I had found this site sooner, to be honest. My fiance has diabetes and we did not know we could test his BS with his glucose monitor. My vet failed to mention that, so we ended up racking up a 600 plus dollar vet bill. We haven't been able to take him to the vet, tho we have been able to give him his insulin. I was researching and found some info on this site & Wiki that brought some questions to mind. I think he is suffering from neuropathy in his legs, which breaks my heart. I have had him since he was around 2 weeks old & have raised him his entire life. I am really afraid of losing him him to diabetes...

Firstly, he is on a prescribed vet food due to him being prone to crystals forming in his bladder (he developed this when he was a young kitty). I read that dry foods are not particularly good for kitties with diabetes, so I was wondering if there was a good wet food we could offer him? Would the wet form of his food now be better for him than the dry food? If so, I can just get some from my vet. Secondly, we are now going to monitor his BS since we know we can use my fiance's glucose monitor, but I was wondering how long does it take to figure out how much insulin it is going to take to regulate his BS? And how much is too much? The vet had him on 6 units, 3 in the AM and 3 in the PM, but a week later, his BS was still over 500. Tonight we tested and it was 471, which is still way too high. My vet also told us that we should have food readily available for him, but that seems to be counterproductive for us because he is still doing so poorly. I love my vet, but it costs too much for me to bring him once a week (especially since we can check his BS ourselves), and he seems to not as proactive as I would like.

I want to save my kitty, but his health seems to be declining, especially now that he is showing signs of neuropathy in his legs (they seem week, and he doesn't walk very far before he lies down...he even eats & drinks lying on the floor). I am horribly upset & just want him to get well...any advice is greatly appreciated. He has vet care, but I want to do more for him myself to hurry his recovery...at least as much recovery as I can get for him.

Thanks.
 
Hi Robin and lil Dude!
Well, better late than never, but you've found the best place you could possibly have found. I'll start by telling you that this will all get better, so take a few deep breaths. There are hundreds of people here who are here to help you and your sugarcat, and they are here 24/7 any time you have questions or need help.

Yes, you can hometest using a human meter. And because of that, you won't need to have those BG tests done at the vet any more. No more huge bills!
We need to know first off what type of insulin you are using.
To answer your food question - yes the wet form would be much better than the dry for now. However, we'll find you some non-prescription alternatives that will also save you money AND actually be better for her. If I remember right, you'll need a food low in phosphorus? I am not familiar with what is critical when bladder issues exist, but I know plenty of folks here will be able to tell you. What exactly did the vet give you food-wise?

I'm going to let others jump in who know more than I do, but welcome to the board, and in a few days, you are not going to feel nearly as overwhelmed as you do right now. I don't think losing lil' dude is going to need to be on your mind any more.

Carl in SC
 
Welcome Extra sweet Lil Dude and Robin!

First, breathe...

You landed in the right place now. I can't answer a lot of your questions either but wanted to assure you that someone will be along that will know exactly what you need in the way of the food.

What kind of insulin is he on? Twice a day?

KT was just diagnosed in June so we're too inexperienced to give advice yet but we've all got kitties that are just fine that live a little extra sweet. We'll help get him........and YOU ))............down!
 
Hi Robin,

There is a lot we can do to help you help your little Dude. First food. We like wet lo carb for every cat. Read this website by a vet to understand why: www.catinfo.org.
We feed between 8-10% carbs using this food chart: Janet and Binky’s chart BUT you want to be careful as you change over the food. Wet lo carb can make a huge difference in bg levels - down 100 points overnight for our Oliver when we switched from dry to wet.

It is great you already have a meter and are getting some numbers in. What kind of insulin are you using? Your dose is pretty high. We suggest starting at .5 or one unit twice daily and then increasing by .25 after getting some testing done at home to see how the insulin is working. Testing at the vet can be artificially high because most cats are stressed at the vet and stress raises bg levels. Depending on your insulin, you could reduce the dose and start the wet lo carb, testing often, and his numbers should go down.

The neuropathy is heart breaking to see. Regulation with the right dose of insulin helps, as does Methyl B12. More info here: Neuropathy

It is hard to get advice that conflicts with your vet. Vets have to treat many species and many diseases. They can't be experts on everything. All we know is diabetic cats and our protocol has led many kitties to regulation and remission. We would love to help you and Little Dude.
 
Hi Robin,

I hope I can make you feel better. Many of us were exactly where you are when we finally found FDMB. I came here 3 months after Gandalf's diagnosis in 2005 and by then he had lost 5 lbs and had neuropathy.

The best way to heal neuropathy is to control the blood glucose. You have already realized the best way to control BGs is by home testing. Have you watched any videos yet about how to do that? We use a lancet and or lancet pen and prick the sides or tips of their ear. See this picture: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m267/chupie_2006/testingear/sweetspot.jpg
There is also a supplement you can get in the meantime. Read about it and order it here: http://www.lifelinknet.com/siteResources/Products/Zobaline.asp

Next is diet. You are correct that dry food is not good for kitties, period, whether they are diabetic or not. A very good site to read about how important a species appropriate diet is here: http://www.catinfo.org/index.htm That site is written and maintained by a CA vet, Dr. Lisa Pierson. She is very common sense and has helped many of us understand the role diet plays in overall feline health, not just for diabetics. The section of her site regarding feline diabetes is here http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

Last but not least is insulin. They are not all the same. Please tell us which insulin the vet has you using. There are 3 basic ones we use here, Lantus, PZI or Levemir. Only PZI or Prozinc is "approved" for use in cats, but that doesn't matter. Lantus and Levemir have proven to be highly effective at causing remission for diabetic cats. lantus is more well known in the veterinary community. Your fiance may even be using one of the L's! FYI, the Humulin insulins such as N or 70/30 are too fast acting for good use in cats and R is for emergency purposes only.

There is a good possibility that 3U is far too high of insulin dose, no matter which insulin you're using. Too high of dose can cause Somogyi Rebound in cats, the wiki on rebound is here http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Rebound Since he has now developed neuropathy, it's likely the reason is that his BGs are constantly high from rebound. There is a condition called Acromegaly which requires high doses of insulin, but let's get you testing, find out what insulin you're using and try a dose decrease down to 1U and see how he does on that before worrying about something else going on.

Before you lower his dose however, it's very very important that you take him off the high carb food. Most veterinary diets are still species inappropriate, if there are any grains in it at all, it is not a good food. You can find foods in better pet stores that don't cost any more than the "prescription" diets and are made with better ingredients. The brands Wellness and EVO both have good quality, low carb foods. Please take a look at the food charts here http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm You want to look for foods under 10% of calories from carbs.

Once you get home testing under your belts, you'll feel much more in control and better about what you need to do for lil Dude!

What other questions can we answer for you?
 
I want to point out that if you switch to wet food you're going to need to test because the blood sugar will drop and you don't want to give him to much insulin

You might want to start a new thread title asking what food is right for your kitty since diabeties isn't the only thing you're dealing with.
 
Wow, I was not expecting such a huge amount of replies so THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!!

Lil Dude is on the CD food for bladder health. All of our kitties are on the food, but he is the only one with health issues. Secondly, my vet told us to use the Humulin rDNA Insulin manufactured by Lily. The vet started him out at 1 unit, but his BS never went down, so he upped it to 6 units, twice a day. I read about the rebound effect. It is what upset me so much because I know what high blood sugar can do. My fiance struggles daily to maintain his. :( I will gladly switch if there is a better alternative. I just want my sweet kitty to feel better and be more himself...he hasn't been himself in months, and it breaks my heart.

My only questions now really are food & insulin type. Oh, and as far as the food goes, I should put him on a feeding schedule, right? Any other advice is greatly appreciated, and THANK YOU for the information links!!

Thank you again so very much!!

Here is a picture of my sweet guy when he wasn't so sick...

lildude.jpg


lildude-2007.jpg
 
Lil Dude doesn't look so little! How adorable!

It sounds like you may be using Lantus, also known as "glargine" insulin. Excellent. Please read on the bottle to make sure. Lantus is the brand name and it should say that. Also, Lantus is available in Solostar pens, which are much more economical to use, but you can continue to use the vial for now.

Right now the uncontrolled diabetes makes Dude very hungry, so you should not restrict food. Yes, food/diet plays an important part in managing diabetes for cats just like people, but right now it's more important that you get him on the right food.

Dr. Lisa has info on her site about urinary issues too. http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth Her info can probably help you decide what to do about food.

There is also a well honed protocol for using Lantus in cats. Please read about it here. http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

I'm sorry to dump all these links on you, but it's the best way to learn and help you figure out/decide what you need to do. I can type about what to do all day long, but the links are our go-to resources. So many people have been down this road, it's fairly well travelled already, so you are certainly not alone.

What great parents Dude has!
 
I prefer lantus as do a good majority of the people here. It helps to cut down on the cost if your fiancé uses it as well. My father uses lantus so he gives me a pin every once in a while and it saves me 200 bucks

I can't tell you about the food, raja is just diabetic so low carb wet food is all we look for.

A schedule Is better but with raja I put out a can for her in the morning and don't throw it away until the next morning. I've used the automatic feeders before and those are wonderful as well.

I know this is all overwhelming in the beginning but I promise it gets easier. I know most people prefer to test with ears but I use rajas paw and that works great for us. Of you get a moment click the YouTube link in my signature to see how it's done.
 
Thank you, and please, anything is appreciated!! Lil Dude has lost a lot of weight, so he's not as big and fluffy as he used to be. He was at one point a nearly 17 pound kitty!! He's quite bony now, tho. :(

The insulin that my vet told us to use is called: Humulin N NPH human insulin (rDNA origin) Isophane suspension U-100 Manufactured by Lilly.
 
Raja was 18 pounds and lost 9 within a few weeks. Regulating is the key. Once you get his bg levels steady he will start gaining weight.

Raja came back out of remission and lost almost a pound in a week. I could see her backbone but once I started her on insulin and got her regulated she started gaining weight and she's already gained the pound back she lost.
 
lildude said:
Thank you, and please, anything is appreciated!! Lil Dude has lost a lot of weight, so he's not as big and fluffy as he used to be. He was at one point a nearly 17 pound kitty!! He's quite bony now, tho. :(

The insulin that my vet told us to use is called: Humulin N NPH human insulin (rDNA origin) Isophane suspension U-100 Manufactured by Lilly.
Click to expand...

I wondered if it was a Humulin, but my Google search wasn't definitive so I hoped you had Lantus. Unfortunately N or NPH is a faster acting insulin and since cats metabolize everything faster than humans, it's not very effective for cats.

You will have to get a prescription from your vet for Lantus. I don't know how receptive they will be about that. Don't be afraid to call other vets if you aren't comfortable following your current vet's course of treatment. If you let us know the general part of Texas you're in, perhaps someone here is familiar with other vets in your area.
 
Very few people here use Humulin. It is a fairly harsh, fast acting insulin that doesn't last a full cycle in most cats. Here is a primer: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=303. Some vets prescribe it because it is inexpensive and because they are not as familiar with treating diabetic cats with human insulins like Lantus and Levemir. ProZinc is an animal insulin prescribed by vets but it is also more expensive than Humulin.

Our theory is to use the most successful insulins (in terms of regulation and remission) that are easiest on the cat's system. You might go back to the main forum page nd look at the insulin support group pages. They all have user guides for the insulins and posts by people using them.
 
Here is some information about nutrition for cats with urinary tract problems: http://catinfo.org/#Cystitis_

The good news that that the best diet for a diabetic cat (low carb canned food) completely coincides with the proper diet for a cat with Urinary tract issues (high moisture, canned diet). You can pick any commerical low carb canned food that is below 10% carbs, and get rid of the dry food competely. You don't need prescription food. If you have six cats, there are low carb-grain free canned options that are pretty inexpensive, it it will likely work out to be less than what you were paying to feed them all the prescription food. The best thing is to just get rid of ALL the dry food in the house--it will help prevent problems with the other cats later on. If you need to be away and feed the cats, you can freeze portions of food to leave out for them.

The low carb flavors of Sophistacat, Friskies, and Special Kitty all come in large 13oz cans (better price and easier to feed a lot of cats). You'll want to mix some water in with lil Dude's food to increase his water intake because of the urinary tract issues.
 
Hi again LilDude and Robin!

Now that I know you're on humulin N, I CAN talk about that. Some of this will be a repeat of above so please forgive that. KT began Humulin N when he was diagnosed in June, 2011. We tried for over 2 1/2 months to get KT regulated on it but it's just too 'unpredictable'. It would work for a few hours but he'd ride a huge roller coaster up and down which doesn't feel good for him at all. It also wouldn't work but about 7 hours or so. Shooting twice a day and it only working 7 hours leaves their body without any support for 10 hours of that day. His lowest numbers were seldom in the same place during the time span.

We switched to Lantus August 27 so we've been using it about 3 weeks. He's not regulated yet but it's getting much closer. What has stopped (UNLESS he finds contraband food) is the huge spikes and drops. It's much more level and HE is feeling much better now. He's playing again and doesn't live at the water bowl or sleeping, he's regained what weight we WANTED him to regain (but not the extra 5 pounds!), his coat is soft and silky, his eyes are clear and full of his normal mischief.

Home testing is a usual hurdle for the humans but you're already knocked that one out of the way. Below our signature you'll find a link to KT's spreadsheet. The first part is on Humulin N, the bottom is the Lantus. This will give you a picture of what I'm saying.

Again, welcome!
 
Thank you ALL so much for your insight & advice--it is MUCH appreciated!!

We have taken Lil' Dude's blood sugar three times today & the lowest it was was this morning but still way too high (it was in the 300s). Tho I would prefer that number over the 500+ it has been, it didn't stay there. His last reading was in the mid-400s. :( We are taking up his food over night, and this morning he seemed to be feeling A LITTLE better tho hungry, but it unfortunately did not last very long.

I am going to print out a lot of what you have given me and ask for a prescription for the Lantus. Since we can keep tabs on his BS now, I hope he will give me the prescription without seeing Lil' Dude, tho we are going to take him in as soon as we can get that 600+ dollar vet bill paid down some. :sad: I am also going to ask about wet food that would be good for him and take him off of the dry food.

Thank you all again so much for your help. I am more optimistic now that I will be able to get him well again & will see him playful & with some life back in his eyes. I know he is not happy right now & it makes me so very sad. I will most certainly keep you posted & check out more of the forum to learn more!!

And Lil' Dude will be grateful too in his own little kitty way!! :D

BTW, we are from SE Texas--about 2 hours NE of Houston. My city is Beaumont. :) I've been with my vet now for over a decade, so I know (or I am pretty sure) he will work with me.
 
Have you seen the food lists at this website? http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
Most of us choose a wet food less than 10% carbs. They are listed in one of the columns. You do not need to buy prescription wet food. Fancy Feast Classics are good for diabetics, and other non-diabetics as well. These are a lot less expensive than the prescription food, and most are just as good.
 
Just-As-Appy said:
Have you seen the food lists at this website? http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
Most of us choose a wet food less than 10% carbs. They are listed in one of the columns. You do not need to buy prescription wet food. Fancy Feast Classics are good for diabetics, and other non-diabetics as well. These are a lot less expensive than the prescription food, and most are just as good.
Click to expand...

Are they good for kitties with bladder issues? My worry/concern is that Lil' Dude is prone to crystals forming in his bladder. If these foods will be safe for him & will help his diabetes, then I will most certainly start buying them. And I have a feeling he will enjoy them more than the dry! :D
 
From everything I can find to read on it, yes, canned food in general is better than dry for cats with urinary tract problems.
Here is a great article (the whole site is terrific) by Dr. Lisa that explains it a whole lot better than I can!

http://www.catinfo.org/#Cystitis_

Carl
 
There isn't a particular type of canned food that's better than another for urinary tract problems, it's the moisture in the food that helps the cat (and is better for the problem than the dry prescription urinary diets, since lack of moisture caused the problem to begin with). You can add a little water to canned food to increase your cat's moisture intake as well, which you can't do with any dry food. So you can chose whatever is in your price range that's good in the carb area.

I know that the Friskies Special Diet formulas (and the pates are all low carb) are supposed to be formulated to help maintain urinary tract health by lowering PH and having lower magnesium, but I think it's questionable whether the values are different enough from other foods to really make it better to feed a cat with UT issues. But if you planned on feeding a lower priced commercial food like Friskies or Special Kitty anyway, you might want to try them out just in case.
 
Well, I went to talk to my vet today & he actually thanked ME for my research!! I was like wow, LOL!! He was unaware of the Lantus insulin, but happily wrote me a prescription once we talked about what I have found out. He also gave me the OK to switch Lil' Dude to a canned food. I am going to see what is available & see about the magnesium levels, but they weren't very worried about it. He told me he was proud that I was so involved and proactive in Lil' Dude's care, which made me happy. Needless to say I LOVE my vet!! He told me that he has another patient kitty that has diabetes and that he is going to give the owners the info about the Lantus & canned food instead of the dry. He also told me they were giving this kitty 11 units of the Humulin TWICE a day (the vet did not tell them to do that). I did try higher dosage with Lil' Dude, but saw no improvement, so stopped. Mostly due to worry of overdose, which I found out can happen and cause that rebound effect (my vet was impressed I had learned about that, too!!). So hopefully Ernie (his kitty patient who will hopefully benefit from what you have all helped me learn) will get better once started on a new medical routine to control his diabetes.

I am going to get the script filled and start him tomorrow (the vet suggested I give it a day so that the other stuff is completely out of his system), and he will start on a new diet tomorrow as well!!

My only question right now is what is the max dosage that is OK with the Lantus. He is starting off with 1 unit, so I was wondering how long should we try with 1 unit? What are the doses your furbabies are at?

Again, thank you all so very much! You have given me so much more optimism and hope that he will get well & I will see my old Lil' Dude again!! I'll most certainly let you all know how it goes & hope to stay a part of this place. :D
 
Hi.
You're not alone! Your beautiful boy looks just like my cat.! He also lost so much weight at the begining, and his coat looked dull and he really looked old. But 18 months down the line his weight has stabilized and his coat is looking good again.

Now the neuropathy...Coco was really bad, he was barely able to walk, and whe he did it was on his hocks...it was heart breaking. I asked my vet to try Vitamin B12 injections every three weeks and the difference within 6 weeks was truly amazing, but you do need to continue with them, as it appears to be a cumulative effect. Coco can now jump up onto things which he couldnt do at the begining and runs about. Its well worth a try.
 
Great report from the vet visit!
One unit is a terrific starting dose, and you'll want to keep it right there for at least the next few days. Switching to a low carb canned diet is going to lower lil dudes BG rather quickly so a low dose is best for safe dosing.
You're one of the lucky ones to work well with a good vet that listens! Hopefully they will steer any new patients here!
Carl
 
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