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FrednkimG

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Let me start by saying I am so glad I found this forum, its been a incredible source of info, even though we just deiced to register now.

We have a 8 year old rescue cat, named Macy, she was diagnosed about a month ago with FD. Our vet told us it would cost about $400 in bills to determine her daily dose and then approx. $180 every 3 months in insulin. And then $50 a month in special food. After hearing this I was very upset cause as with lots of people now, we're on a pretty tight budget and just didn't see how we could fit all these new expenses in. We tried to discuss it with our vet and he pretty much told us without all that she had 6 months tops. I was pretty upset about all this, but while discussing it with a new co-worker I found out his wife worked as a vet assistant for a young vet who just opened her own practice. We gave the new vet a call and she agreed to look at Macy for free and see if there was a way we could treat her more economically. Since I am posting here you can guess that she found a place we can buy Lantus(for now, we may end up moving to NPH?? in the future) fairly cheaply and with teh promise to bring our other animals in to do Macy's work at cost.

We've been at it for a month now, 3 units twice a day and a dry diabetic cat food. She seems to have lots of energy again, the amount of drinking and urination are way down. I just wish she'd gain some weight back, but the vet tells us that will come. Her blood sugar was at 450 on our first visit and after 2 weeks we had it down to 320, the vet seemed okay with that result, I was hoping for something better, but she's the expert. She said our goal was to keep her close to 200.

I do have a few question that maybe someone can answer here, in case I forget when we go in to see the vet next week:
1) Macy does not like the shots(I've posted elsewhere on advice for that) but should I have an issue with the needle going too deep, how quickly will I start to see symptoms of hypoglycemia?
2) We have 3 other cats(actually 2 but we're watching my sons while he's away doing the Army thing) so we have 4 cats fighting over the FD food, does anyone have a more economical alternative to the $55/20 pound bag of food? Its getting expensive as we have 3 cats fighting over the expensive food and the one thats supposed to eat it wanting the regular food, of course.
3) How long or will we ever, start to see some weight gain? Macy was a 13 pounder and last visit she was down to just under 9 pounds. Shes not a big cat so this is very noticeable on her. the vet didn't seem concerned but didn't answer my question either.

Once again I am so glad we found this forum, it makes us not feel so alone with the issues we're having with a loving member of our family.

Thanks,
Fred, Kim and Macy
 
Hi Fred, Kim and Macy!

Welcome to the group! Although I cannot give much in the way of advice right now (I am on the East coast, going on 3 am), I wanted to say that this is all mind boggling at first, but definitely will become much easier to deal with once you talk to more folks, and get more practice with giving the insulin shots and the testing seems as if it would be quite difficult, but that becomes much easier too.

Are you giving shots sub-q? I used to always shoot my two diabetic boys (both were solid black cats) on their flanks, or about half way between their front and back legs on their sides. I didn't need to pinch up their skin that way, and it was much easier to see to shoot the insulin in sub-q. I used the shorter and thin needles, and my guys never minded their shots.

Testing was rough the first few times, but after a while, I could say that it would altogether take me at the most 5 to 10 minutes each, to test, and shoot insulin in each cat. My boys, Rudder and Charcoal, would even come to me when I called them for shots. I never used treats for them, but one thing I did that I found was easier, was to take them one at a time into my bathroom, and have the inner window open (storm window shut) with a towel on the windowsill where they would sit and be partially unable to get away quickly in case they had any ideas. After awhile, though, it was really easy.

Now, I am a person that was adament about NOT choosing to treat my diabetic cat, Charcoal, in the beginning, because it all seemed so foreign and scary to me. Once I decided though to try it, and had a LOT of help from folks here on this board, it became a piece of cake.

So, again, let me say that I hope you will keep at it, for Macy's sake and yours too, and another thing you will want to do is get him off of dry food if possible. BUT, do not do this suddenly, as you will have to possibly adjust the dose of insulin in case his numbers drop if you put him on an all wet/canned food diet. But, you should be testing him first before making any of the dosage decisions.

I would recommend staying with the Lantus, if possible, but worse case scenario, the N insulin is shorter acting and more 'harsh'. Numbers can drop much more quickly with that insulin.

3 units of Lantus starting out, sounds like a lot, but try to go over to the Lantus section of this site and ask for some help over there.

Good luck, and hope everything works out well for you all!

By the way, I am not a vet, nor a vet tech, but I did treat my two boys for 3 years before they died of other causes. So, I am basically just welcoming you and encouraging you to not give up.

Oh, my Charcoal had been a 13 pound cat, dropped to 9 pounds before I treated him with insulin, and gradually gained his weight back to about 12 pounds. His coat became soft and less dandruffy again and he had a fairly good 3 years after I started his treatment.

Hugs,
Jean and Charcoal (GA) cat_pet_icon
 
Welcome to the site!

As I read your post I was horrified at that first vet! What a horrible person! I would never go back there and would give that vet some nice free advertising to keep all animals away from that vet. How disgusting and negative and money grabbing! If you come to me and give me lots of money, your cat will live; otherwise, he's just die. Ugh, how awful!

Anyways, hometesting is just the cost of strips, and you know how your Macy is doing. If you have problems, there are many here who can help you. The ears learn to respond to the pokes, some say they learn to bleed. Do your own testing for sure.

Spots for injections - many just go with the scruff because it's easier and does not hurt like the flank does for so many cats. I tried the flank once, only once. Shadoe freaked! I dutifully went back to scruff shots and she is just fine with them. Many people use the short syringes, I do as well for both Shadoe and Oliver, but if the cat is longhair and more difficult to get to the skin, some prefer the longer needled syringes.

Dump all the dry foods!! There are some cats who can be diet controlled meaning change their foods and no need for insulin! I don't think that is going to happen on cheap OR expensive dry foods. The vets just push that "special" dry diabetic foods on people when all you have to feed is low carb fancy feast or friskies wet foods, or even some of the others listed on binky's food list on this board. By switching the food, you will see a big improvement in Macy's numbers coming down very nicely, I bet!

About the dose you are giving Macy - how did you get to that amount of 3units BID? Did the vet just start you there, what was the starting dose for Macy? Usually, most cats will start on a dose of 1unit and see how that settles so Macy may be getting too much insulin. Without knowing how you got up to that amount, it's hard to tell. It could be an OK dose, but you never know.
I recently adopted a sweet cat with FD and he was at a 3 or 4unit dose. I started him back at 1unit BID just to be sure that he was not getting too much. He wasn't getting too much and is at much more now, but just to rule out his getting too much insulin, we did bring him back down.

Does Macy have any other health issues? What about dental? I took Shadoe for her very first dental and she did have one bad molar that had to be extracted and I think it made a difference in her numbers. Teeth have a way of causing lots of grief for cats, so that's one thing you can get that other vet to check. Don't go back to that evil vet for anything; you'll likely get told it will cost you '$1000's', when it could be only a couple hundred. Seriously, a bad tooth can cost you lots in all that insulin stuff, so it's something to have checked, just in case.

The weight? For sure, don't worry about that yet. At the beginning, Macy's body is not absorbing all the nutrients from the foods so you may see her eat lots more because she is trying to get the nutrients. It's like being hungry but not having that hunger go away. When Shadoe was first dx, she was eating over 5cans of wet food on some days, but now she is down to maybe 1 can of wet food, ff or maybe friskies. She had lost a couple lbs, but after a few months, she slowly started to gain. Oliver is also seeming a bit more chunky now, less gaunt looking, so after a bit over a month, he is putting on weight too, but he is going through at least 3 BIG cans of friskies, those 10oz cans! So yeah, they eat more till the insulin gets a bit settled in them and then you will see some slow weight gain and also some less eating.

It will all get better, and there are many here who can help you with all aspects of FD.

Ask every single question you have and someone will have a reply and some helping words for you.

And remember that both you AND Macy are just getting used to it all. As you get settled in the routine, so will Macy. Before you know it, it will be like getting up and making that first pot of coffee each morning, for both of you.
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB-You sure came to the right place :-D

Fantastic that you seem to have found a vet that's willing to work with you.

As has al;ready been mentioned 3u is a lot of insulin. Most cats are around .5u-2u on Lantus (unless an acro cat, but don't worry about that for now)

I'm making an assumption your somewhere in the USA? If so, the best economical cat foods can be found on Janet and Binky's food charts. Go to the other health part and I think the link is there (on friends computer so don't have all my fav links)
The most popular seem to be Fancy Feast and I think EVO is also popular.
Definitely dump the dry (even so called diabetic dry is not good for kitties) Dry food can be up to 60% carbohydrates. This is what pushes kitties BG numbers up.
You want a wet food that is under 10% carbs (my preference is under 5% as this is the % carbs cats get fropm their natural food source, mice in the wild)

A cat that has been fed on mostly dry has basically had it's Pancreas overwhlmed with sugar (carbs) and it damages the beta cells in the pancreas. These manage the BG in kitties system. Eventually 'die' off as can't cope and then you get diabetes. This is a very laymans way of explaining it.
Would definitely recommend read read read.
I'm one of those people who wants to know everything and that knowledge gives you the power to make informed decisions.

As kitty isn't regulated (think Jean? alluded to this) free feed as much as he needs. Whilst his numbers are so high his/her body can't process the food and body is literally starving to death (hence the weight loss and vets diagnosis of short lifespan.This is if you did nothing and a cruel way for a kitty to die)
This is not going to happen to your cat!

It is important to know if there are any other health issues, because the ethos of this board is start low and go slow (especially with Lantus) Kitty may work back up to a higher dose but it means you don't miss the ideal one.
As your cat doesn't sound very old you may have a chance at remission (diet controlled) but to achieve this you need to test a lot and ensure kitty is on lowest carb food possible.


Are you tech savvy? Really helpful if you can set up a spread sheet (info in tech forum) and post your results.
With Lantus you need to test bg before shot. It is a slow acting insulin (and by far the best insulin in various research for getting kitties off insulin)and thuis takes 1-2 hours to start working on the bg. Therefore you would want to test again after an hour (usuallly a higher number) then 2 hours (usually lower number than your before shopt test)
Lantus usually nadirs around +4-6 with others having variations (again don't want to confuse you) Thus good idea when starting out to get more tests. So a +3,4 and 6 will give you an idea of there nadir. This is the lowest number in your cycle and what you base your dose on.
Going back to the health issues, you have to be careful you don't give too little insulin as this can also cause problems. But if not would as Jen? said start at 1u and hold for around 5 days (depending on your numbers) then increase in increments of .5.
For now, if you do the tests at 3 u you will see what impact this is having on kitty's bg. My thoughts are that this is too high a dose (but some do need this, hence need for monitoring to work it out)

Really suggest you go to Lantus isg and read all the stickies, lots of really helpful information. Then if you post each day people will help advise you.
If your vet is willing to work with you on this, you can give them access to your spreadsheet so they can see your progress.
If you have a look at Lucky's chart (sadly I lost her last September) you will see I couldn't get her regulated on caninsulin (aka vetsulin) but once on Levemir (almost identical action to Lantus) I got her beautifully regulated. You will see how often I tested.

This will also on your availibilty and job. Some people can't get home to test during day and thus do curves (+1, 3 4 6 etc) on a week end and that is when they change dose as they can monitor it's effectiveness.

Hope this isn't too much info at once for you.

Last thing-what size gauge is the needle that your using? The higher the number, the thinner the needle (and less painful for kitty). 29-31 are the best. Hocks.com is an online place a lot of USA peeps use.
Can ask the question on the other health board. Sure someone will tell you. Also the scruff does seem to be better for some cats (Lucky would never have let me hoot her anywhere else as very fractious kitty)
Kudos to your son on his army, hope he's doing well :-D

Please keep asking questions, no q is a dumb one however it may sound.
This board gave me nearly another year with my cat, and if it hadn't been for other health issues and a useless vet she would have been around a lot longer!)
Good luck :mrgreen:
 
Wow thanks for the quick responses. Yes we're in the US, currently in Wisconsin but are planning the big move back to Texas in the fall.

We currently do not test on a daily basis, the vet has us taking Macy to see her weekly and they are testing there. She told us that daily testing wasn't needed and didn't recommend it. I see here lots do test daily, I'll have to ask her again about it.

The vet came up with 3 units of Lantus, and we do have a new prescription for 2 units of another insulin but I can't really read her hand writing. This new one is if we find the cost and use of Lantus financially overwhelming. 3 units of Lantus in a 100 unit bottle is $124, the other insulin is 2 units in a 1000 unit bottle for $44. She told us Lantus was the best and we're hoping to stay with that, but should we have to we have the other one ready.

On the dry food, which wet ones do you recommend? What ever we buy we are going to have to buy for 4 cats. Like I described we have our other 2 and we are currently foster parents for my sons while he's away for the Army. Our cat food expenditures went from $12 to roughly $70 with the dry diabetic cat food .

We're spend a lot of time reading the internet on FD. We're learning slowly but like someone says it seems so overwhelming. The information, the differences in cats, difference in reactions, and the difference in all techniques. I'm just happy to find some where we can ask questions and not feel like we're taking advantage of a favor, since the vet is doing what she can to help us for nothing basically.

Thanks
Fred, Kim and Macy
 
Welcome to our FDMB family and be patient with yourself. You sound like you really love your cats, so you have come to the perfect place. Get some chocolate, sit back and get ready to read. Also, remember Every Cat Is Different. (ECID) Also, remember opinions may vary sometimes on this board, so you may get different views. Unfortunately, that is human nature.
Sorry this is very long, but there is a lot to say! Also, remember we were ALL newbies once and are feeling just like you are right now! :) OK……..breathe………. :RAHCAT

3u twice a day is kinda high, I am guessing it is because you are feeding the dry food. Dry food will keep the levels high. If you switch to wet food, you have to drop the dose over again to 1u twice a day and HOMETEST.


You do not need any type of prescription food or “special” diabetic food. Use Janet & Binky’s chart for canned food at http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html. . Low carb is best for diabetics. I try to stay around 10% or under. I feed Whiskas, 9-Lives and mostly Friskies canned food. Diabetes is very treatable and does not cost as much as you would think. If you are giving a high dose of insulin and feeding dry, be careful with switching to canned food. You MUST reduce the insulin at the same time you switch to canned food.

Please create a profile if you have not already done so (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=531). It will help us to help you. We need to know what kind of insulin you are on, what needles you are using (U-40 or U-100), what are you feeding, how much insulin you are giving and when, BG test results, etc. There are many people on this board from all over the world, so it will be helpful to know what area and time zone you are in. ~O)

Remember that your cat is YOUR cat, and YOU are paying your VET to help you take care of him; diabetes was probably a day or two worth of notes when the vet was in college; it is probably NOT a day-to-day existence with his own cat trying to maintain a quality of life. Sorry to say, but I would have overdosed my guys on insulin if I followed my vet's advice. Vets, unfortunately are not as knowledgeable as they should be on diabetes.

Sometimes, as I did, you have to take a leap of faith and trust these people on this board who deal with diabetes day in and day out. Trust me. You will not be disappointed. OK………..breathe again……….get some chocolate…….. cat_pet_icon

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements. When you have some time (hee hee), read my profile doc at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfqss8sg_1cpgwhbd9 .

If you are not hometesting already, you really need to start!! Hometesting is VERY important. Most of us here use any human meter. Think of it as a human diabetic does. *If it were you or a child of yours, you'd be testing blood glucose levels at home prior to each shot; you'd be working with your doctor to determine a proper dose based on those shot results, correct?* Some vets do not agree with hometesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Most vets, sadly are not knowledgeable enough in feline diabetes. Insulin is a VERY powerful drug and you NEED to hometest before giving a shot. This is very important. The vet would rather have you bring the cat to them, stress it out more, which may spike the levels anyway and then they can charge you $$. Hometesting saved me a lot of money and it is VERY important for you personally to know the cat’s levels and how it is reacting to the insulin before you shoot so you do not pass up your ideal dosage.

Thanks to everyone's help here I learned to home test 2 cats and they both got off insulin within 3 weeks with diet change…but of course, they reacting both DIFFERENTLY with the process. If I can do it with 2 cats twice a day (and more on curve days), ANYONE can do it. It does NOT hurt them as much as you think it does. It just stings for a moment and then it is gone, you can try it on yourself. Also, put pressure on the ear after poking and it should minimize the nub. They won't mind it once they start feeling better. I use the True Track meter (CVS or Walgreens brand) which I love. And, the strips are also reasonable. Also, remember to give them a treat after the test. Here is a link to a member videos on hometesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6iXetR398

I would not feed DRY food if at all possible. Of course, it is better than nothing – you MUST get them to eat if you are giving insulin, but if there is any chance, get them off the dry. I took my guys off dry and within a month they were off insulin. Again, remember that switching from dry to wet can cause a drop in blood sugars, so you MUST reduce insulin at the same time to make sure you are not giving too much insulin. I truly believe also that I saved some of my many others from developing diabetes. I also saved so, so much money changing them all to regular canned cat food.
When Blackie and Jackie got diagnosed, I was afraid to start shots. The people on this board made me realize it was no big deal. (They went on PZI insulin around 3-25-06 and went off on 4-18-06! :) Please also realize that diet plays a BIG, BIG part in insulin needs. I switched my cats off dry food to all wet and I was never so happy. It was a challenge to try to regulate 2 cats at once.


Welcome to the Sugar Dance. flip_cat
Welcome to the Vampire Club.

If I can do it, ANYONE can!!!
It does get easier. Trust us.

You need to test BEFORE you shoot. It usually goes: Test, Feed, Shoot



There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".
 
Spot on with Ceils links! Especially tyhe food one.
If you use less Lantus it obviously will last longer. Some people get up to 9 weeks out of a vial. It says around 42 days but as I said others have got a lot longer (it's in the stickies in the Lantus isg)

Your vet probably doesn't know about hometesting. There is a link on here about converting a vet-that should help if she's willing)

If poss would really stick with the lantus. Also can ask peeps where they get there's from as can get cheaper off certain sources.

I'm not in US hence not being sure of the foods but Janets chart is excellent for this.
We used Felix but don't think you can get in US.

Keep asking! :mrgreen:
 
Welcome!

To respond to your questions:
1) Macy does not like the shots(I've posted elsewhere on advice for that) but should I have an issue with the needle going too deep, how quickly will I start to see symptoms of hypoglycemia?
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If you are using short needles and tenting or pulling up on the skin, a subcutaneous shot should not go in too deep. I've botched a shot on occasion and pokes a shoulder bone, but that's very much the exception. (I shoot in the scruff.) I would also give a treat every time you give a shot or test. The association between food or treats and a poke is pretty powerful. I also shoot when Gabby's face is in her food. She's preoccupied with eating and couldn't care less about the shot.

There is a difference between having low numbers and symptomatic hypoglycemia. Typically Lantus starts to work about 2 hours after a shot. The lowest point of the cycle, the nadir, is usually somewhere around 6 hours after the shot. However, if you've made a mistake in measuring a dose or there are other issues that may effect levels, it can occur sooner or later. We recently had someone on the Lantus board give an incorrect dose -- more than twice as much as she should have shot. The cat's numbers were managed with high carb food and syrup and there were no symptoms of hypo.

2) We have 3 other cats(actually 2 but we're watching my sons while he's away doing the Army thing) so we have 4 cats fighting over the FD food, does anyone have a more economical alternative to the $55/20 pound bag of food? Its getting expensive as we have 3 cats fighting over the expensive food and the one thats supposed to eat it wanting the regular food, of course.
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Most vets will want to sell you prescription food. It's expensive. The vast majority of people here don't use it. Like most, I started with the prescription stuff. The more I read about a diabetic diet in cats and the quality of those prescription foods, the more convinced I was that it was contributing to the problem. When I met with my vet, one of the discussions we had was about food. Her purpose in suggesting the prescription stuff was to make sure Gabby was on a low carb diet. I indicated that there were better quality foods with fewer carbs available commercially and they cost tons less. She was fine with my choices. (Keep in mind that selling the Rx stuff is a big profit center for the vet!)

If you've not noticed, we are big proponents of canned food. It is a much more species appropriate food source. Lisa Pierson, DVM has an excellent website that discusses feline nutrition. Using the information there with Janet & Binky's Food Charts was an invaluable resource for me. Many people here are on tight budgets. The food charts cover the spectrum of foods -- the premium brands as well as the less expensive brands. People here can guide you with what they have chosen and many here who are on limited incomes feed a houseful of kitties. I feed a primarily raw food diet to my 2 cats and I supplement with Fancy Feast.

There are lower carb dry foods. They tend to be the high priced, premium brands.

As others have said, if you choose to transition from dry to canned foods, please start home testing regularly. We have seen cats run straight into remission with a diet change. You will increase the risk of low numbers by reducing the carb content of Macy's diet.

3) How long or will we ever, start to see some weight gain? Macy was a 13 pounder and last visit she was down to just under 9 pounds. Shes not a big cat so this is very noticeable on her. the vet didn't seem concerned but didn't answer my question either.
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At the moment, a great deal may depend on how much you are feeding Macy. Until Macy is better regulated, he will be hungry most of the time. Feed him as much as he wants since it is the nature of diabetes to prevent nutrients from going into the cells. Instead, glucose, the body's primary fuel, is floating around in the bloodstream. As his numbers improve, his weight will stabilize.

I also have to disagree with the idea that 3.0u is a lot of insulin. The amount of insulin you give depends on your cat's needs. It depends on where your dose started and how the dose was increased. As Ceil noted, the amount of insulin you are giving may also be helping to lower numbers that are artificially raised due to dry food. I would also disagree with your vet that the goal should be to keep blood glucose (BG) levels at around 200. On the Lantus board, our goal is to first see if a cat can reach remission and then look to tight regulation. One of the big advantages of Lantus is that it has an excellent track record of getting cats into remission or to keep them tightly regulated. You may want to take a look at or share the dosing protocol we use with your vet. This protocol is based on research published in a well respected veterinary journal by one of the leaders in Lantus research, Jacqui Rand, who is a vet at University of Queensland.

If you set up a spreadsheet and start home testing, please join us on the Lantus board. We are highly numbers driven so home testing is critical. There is also a great deal of information about Lantus and its use, dosing, etc. that is posted in the permanent notes at the top of the board.

Again, welcome and please let us know how we can help.
 
Hi and welcome to the board. We know you are overwhelmed, but I promise. It will get easier.

A lot of people have given you a lot of great advice. I would like to reiterate one thing posted by ceil99:
ceil99 said:
If you are not hometesting already, you really need to start!! Hometesting is VERY important. Most of us here use any human meter. Think of it as a human diabetic does. *If it were you or a child of yours, you'd be testing blood glucose levels at home prior to each shot; you'd be working with your doctor to determine a proper dose based on those shot results, correct?* Some vets do not agree with hometesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Most vets, sadly are not knowledgeable enough in feline diabetes. Insulin is a VERY powerful drug and you NEED to hometest before giving a shot. This is very important. The vet would rather have you bring the cat to them, stress it out more, which may spike the levels anyway and then they can charge you $$. Hometesting saved me a lot of money and it is VERY important for you personally to know the cat’s levels and how it is reacting to the insulin before you shoot so you do not pass up your ideal dosage.
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YOU DO NOT NEED YOUR VET'S BLESSING TO HOMETEST! You wouldn't give insulin to a child without testing first....why the difference for a cat?

Maybe someone is close by in Wisconsin and they can help with some hands on training.

Good luck with everything...and once again, WELCOME!!!
 
Just want to make sure that someone mentioned the economical good sense of buying the 5 pack lantus cartridges in here somewheres (it's probably mentioned, just a bit rushed this morning and want to be sure you hear about it!)..

Most of us buy the 5 pack pens or 5 pack cartridges.. it's hmm.. I'm not sure the cost in the US.. 180 maybe? Anyways, we generally use each pen for 1 month (just handling insulin alone can cause it to become less effective, so I usually toss a pen at the end of the month even if it's not empty).. since the others remained untouched in the fridge, they are good for a really long time.. so that money up front works out to 5 months of insulin.. where you can typically only use the vial for 1 month.. it's a LOT cheaper to go with the pens method.

As for hometesting.. the first few months my cat had FD I was taking her in for weekly curves at the vet and not home testing.. I think a curve was costing me about $100.. to do a test at home, including the test strip and lancet, costs me about $0.80.. and I use a really expensive meter.. ReliON is much cheaper.. and I think with it a single test (lancet and test strip) might cost about $0.30-$0.40.

If you test an average of 5 times a day.. all week.. it's less than $15/week.. so it's usually a lot cheaper than the curves at the vet, and it's safer for your cat as well. You also don't usually need to do a diabetes blood check up any more (fruco-something I can't remember right now :) ).. so that's more money in the pocket..
 
Reply from another thread

The below quote was posted in another thread. It's important to address the dose issue because of how the cat is reacting. I replied in that thread before seeing this one.

3U of Lantus is way too high for a beginning dose! The reaction you're seeing from Macy could be because she equates the shot with feeling bad due to near or actual hypoglycemia (blood glucose below 40mg/dl.) So there is probably nothing wrong with your technique.

We recommend hometesting with a human blood glucose monitor - there are many types available, but the most cost effective is Wal-Mart's Reli-On brand meter. Veterinarians now have one for pets available, but strips are expensive and vets do not have convenient hours in case you run out during a crisis at 2AM.

Lantus is an excellent insulin if properly managed. The best advice on using Lantus is here: http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm
If purchased in the 5 pack it can also be very cost effective as someone has explained.

FrednkimG said:
We are new to this, our 8 year old rescue cat, Macy, was diagnosed about a month ago. We've been giving her 3 units of Lantus, twice a day using a 31 gauge 5/16" syringe. The first few weeks she didn't mind the injections, but the past week shes been getting more and more rebellious when it comes shot time for me and not my wife. She does make some noise for my wife's turn(due to work schedules she gives the morning shot, I give the evening one). Macy watches me measure the dose, we do the injection on our bed with the doors closed so the other kitties leave her alone, and she hops on the bed of her own accord and then head buts the treat jar, purring very loudly. But once I move her into position to inject she begins to cry, tries to roll onto her back, and has even hissed at me. A few times I've had her try to run away while I'm injecting.

We've watched videos online, went to training at the vets office, read everything we can get our hands and eyes on. But for some reason she hates when I give the shots. The worst part is I'm the one of us that has some medical training from my days in the Army and giving each other IV's. I've had my wife critique me and says I'm too gentle with her but can't see any "flaws" in my techniques other than speed.

I guess I'm at my wits end hoping for some sort of suggestions as to what it could possibly be or what I can try different.
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Hi, guys, welcome! You've been getting lots of advice, so I'll try not to repeat here. My boy Blaze was diagnosed at the beginning of March. Since I've been mostly unemployed for 2 years, treating him posed a major financial quandry. My vet didn't push any prescription diet and was willing to work with me, so that's been good for us, but it was still a steep investment. He did want me to put Blaze in hospital every few weeks for glucose curves, which is costly. The board convinced me to learn to do it myself -- which, thanks to a free hometesting kit and the how-to vids, I did. It took a couple of weeks to really get the hang of it, but I'm pretty deft now, and Blaze has gotten used to it. Now I just send the vet the spreadsheet.
Blaze had dropped from about 14 pounds to 8.5 very quickly. He wasn't fat to begin with, so it was shocking. He hasn't been easy to regulate (we use Humulin N because of cost, for now), so I feed him all he wants of Friskies pate style canned food (chicken or turkey, mostly), supplemented with barely cooked fresh ground chicken or turkey (pure protein). I bought a small bag of Blue Wilderness (high protein, low carb) dry food to use as a treat because he misses his crunchies. It's expensive, so I give him one or two tablespoons-full every so often, usually to garnish his wet food. I found it at PetSmart. Blaze's numbers are now less roller-coastery than they have been, though still a bit higher than I'd really like, and he's finally starting to put a little weight back on.
I have five other cats (his brothers and sister), so I no longer leave food down all day, and Blaze gets fed in a separate area to reduce temptation for everyone.
It's been a big adjustment for the whole household, and it will be for yours as well, but everyone will adapt. Hang in there! and as they say elsewhere, Keep coming back!
 
Thank you all for the advice. We're definitely going to try the switch to canned food. We set up an appointment with our vet to discuss home testing and changing Macy's food. Which should mean we start adjusting her shot dosages. We're trying to look at and understand the spreadsheets and hopefully have one up and running for her soon.

One thing I do want to mention, Macy was only getting 1 1/2 units of Lantus and the last time we went to the vet is when she upped it to 3 units. I should have mentioned it but never thought that, that might be the issue with her no fighting against the shots. The upped dose and resisting the shots were very close to the same time. She didn't like the 1 1/2 unit shots but never tried to run or fight, she would just whine some.

All the links and information given to us from here is incredible and overwhelming. Me and the wife have been reading it as much as we can, and still have tons of questions which we'll ask here eventually.

Again thank you,
Fred, Kim and Macy(along wit PK, Boog and Domino)
 
The fighting with giving the shots has gotten steadily worse for us. She rolls, hisses, and tries to run for her evening shots only. She's pretty good for her morning shots or when theres two of us there to help keep her still. We just started home testing and thats even worse. When she sees the syringe she hops on the bed looking for a treat till we start to tent her skin, then the fight begins. After the first few times of testing as soon as the meter comes out we have to drag her our from under a bed, behind the TV, ect. We can't even see a pattern as we've been unable to get regular tests done with shots a the prescribed times.

This is all getting so frustrating for us, we love her and have made alot of adjustments and sacrifices to be able to treat her and shes fighting every step of the way. Has anyone had this kind of experiences? I seriously don't know if we can keep her going if shes going to fight us like this for years. Just the sporadic landing of the shots can't be good for her, and after all teh input here I can't imagine that not home testing is an option to make all this successful.

We are at our wits end with this.
 
I can't add to the good advice about insulin, etc - but as to her fighting the shots and testing:
a) yes, it may be that she's getting too much, but
b) chances are, she's picking up on your stress and freaking out because you are (a bit, anyway :smile: )
And who would blame you for being stressed - it is overwhelming and scary for almost all of us for a while.
My cat fought the shots at the beginning, and I was on my own. I had to corner her, get up behind her to stop her backing out, scruff, and shoot fast and let her go!
But after a while, she'd just crouch down and let me do it. I do believe it was after I became more relaxed about it - cats are supersensitve to our moods and vibes, and they just react accordingly.
See if you can take a deep breath and talk to her cheerfully and encouragingly, or better, just act as matter of factly as you can, like you mean business, but in a calm way.
I've never forgotten the stress of those first weeks, and I feel for you!

All of us would say - it will get easier and better, and become a matter of routine like teeth brushing (yours!) :smile: .
 
About the fighting the shots as soon as you tent her skin: This sounds as if the way you are tenting the skin may hurt. It works well just to pull up on a hunk of fur; the skin comes up without being touched. If you actually pinch the skin, this can hurt.

For testing, are you pricking right near the edge of the ear (really only a tiny fraction of an inch from the edge)? Kitties don't have much feeling there, but further in many do have enough feeling to get an "ouch" reaction.

Cats don't usually fight the shots or the tests, so I'm just trying to imagine what could be the matter. I may be altogether wrong. Try to think of what in your technique might be painful. You may think of something that wouldn't occur to any of us, because we can't see what is actually going on.
 
I know what its like to have a diabetic cat, other cats, and be low income. We've got 7 rescued including a few that hate wet food and will pretty much only eat dry food. My husband hasn't had a job in over a year and a half and I'm disabled. Regretfully as much as I think they're a part of my family neither Medicaid or food stamps will cover cats or their food.

We feed the 6 civvie cats low-carb Friskies and 9-lives along with some Iams Multi-cat kibble (25% calories from carbs which is LESS then prescription diabetic food has). We make sure we feed the kibble after Yittle has eaten and left the room and we pick it up when the others are done. Won't lie, Yittle manages to find a dropped kibble from time to time or sneak a bite but it hasn't caused any serious problems yet and we try very hard to make it not happen. Yittle gets the same Friskies and 9-lives the others do and some low-carb Fancy Feast. When he was still on insulin and was losing weight I also would feed him custom-cooked food, up to 20% of his daily intake. His favourite was boneless skinless chicken thighs diced up and sauteed in either olive oil or bacon fat with a pinch of salt. No carbs, onions or garlic. He went from an admittedly fat 20lbs down to 13lbs before he went into diet controlled remission. He has since regained some weight and is at about 14.75lbs and with his frame (he's a big boy) he looks good - doesn't look skeletal anymore. Before we could see every rib, every vertibrae and his legs looked scrawny - it wasn't good. Now he looks healthy.

As for Lantus - despite months on Vetsulin we only needed 1 vial of Lantus before we got him into diet-controlled remission. Our vial - carefully stored and handled managed to last just shy of 3 months. Everybody has different levels of success with how long their vial lasts, we said we'd use ours till it stopped working but even at the end when he was only getting .25 units it was dropping his blood sugar enough he was going borderline hypoglycemic on us so obviously it hadn't crapped out yet.

Testing supplies were pretty cheap - Walmart sells a great meter called the Relion Micro. It uses a very small blood sample and the meter costs around $12. 50 test strips for the meter cost about $23 and the lancets are another $3 or so for 100. Switching from prescription food to grocery store brand moist food pretty much paid for the testing supplies. And let me make it absolutely clear - had we not tested Yittle's blood before each and every shot of Vetsulin and Lantus - he would have died. There were several times where his blood sugar was unexpectedly low and his normal dose of Vetsulin would have killed him, and many times where had I not known how much he normally dropped at that dose, and what he was at to start he could have easily gone hypoglycemic and died by the time he hit nadir had I not kept an eye on him and fed him higher-carb food. Luckily we never did have to give him karo - but I went through my fair share of cans of high-carb moist food and even kibble. One time in particular when he was on Vetsulin still - he typically dropped 360 points from his high to his nadir on that dose, and one evening his pre-shot blood sugar was 340. As a rule 340-360 equals a number that just doesn't work for a living creature's blood sugar.

Yittle eventually learned that the shots made him feel good and the tests led to nice treats of moist food - and he'd actually wake me up if I overslept and tell me it was test/shot time. He did it several times, my alarm wouldn't go off and there he'd be waking me up within 5-10 minutes of the time. He'd even go hunt us down in the house and whine until we got up and then race back to the room and jump up on the desk and wait for his tests/shots. Sometimes when his dose was too high he'd get grumpy about the shots and you could just tell - he didn't like the rollercoaster effect. Thats often how we knew it was about to be time for a dose-change, and that we should do a curve and see what was going on.

My suggestion is to start over. Tonight, spend a moment or two quietly breathing and telling yourself this is going to be successful. Do not panic, do not stress, KNOW that you will suceed and then walk in there and do it. If you're stressing out, she can tell and it stresses her out. You have to leave all the emotion and fear outside and just matter of factly do it. Pretend you're not worried, pretend everything is going to work perfectly this time.

One last tip on the food - yes, everyone will agree, kibble is bad, you should get rid of all the kibble. But if you've got civvie cats who are kibble hold-outs like I do, its not as easy as all that. The best solution we found was to feed Yittle as much moist food as he wanted to eat (from the lists of acceptable food). When he was starving to death and still needed insulin that worked out to 12x a day (always fast them for 2 hours before the pre-shot blood test to remove the chance of a food spike). At each meal he'd eat either 1/4 can of Friskies or 1/2 can Fancy Feast. Now that he's in diet-controlled remission he's down to 6-8x a day, usually closer to 6. Twice a day (breakfast and dinner) we'd give all the cats moist food, after Yittle was done eating and had left the room we'd put out a little kibble for the rest and stand there. When they finished, it was taken away. If anybody showed up and wanted moist food when we were feeding Yittle one of his other meals (second breakfast, third breakfast etc - hobbit that he is). They'd get a bite or two of moist. If they whined we'd dole out a little kibble again - after he'd left the room and then pick it up when they were done. As long as you keep the diabetic cat out of the kibble. Is it best if they all go to moist only - yep, but life rarely lets us always do whats best. Sometimes we have to settle for it works. You can try feeding her moist in 1 room while they get kibble in another and then putting their kibble away to keep costs down. If you need to leave food out you can use frozen moist food (mix can with some water, spoon into plastic-lined disposable containers, freeze. We usually make pucks that are equal to 1/2 a can. They take 2 hours or so to defrost and stay fresh for 2-3 hours. Currently we go through 4 cans of Friskies or 9-lives, 2-3 cans of Fancy Feast, plus about 2 cups of Iams Multi-cat with Chicken a day to feed 7 adult cats. And thats still cheaper then trying to feed them all prescription food.
 
Well as per usual, her morning shot went off without incident. He afternoon testing was a mess, my wife couldn't even find her in the time she had over lunch. Her evening shot went okay compared to the rest of the week. I skipped pre-shot testing in hopes of keeping her as calm as possible and thought that meds in her were more important than testing, I maybe wrong but right now I see the symptoms returning and thats got me worried(shes starting to eat alot more without gaining weight, drinking allot and using the litter box frequently again).

I drew the insulin 15 minutes before shot time, I sat on the couch with her petting her as she purred happily. We were both very calm. I picked up our treat jar and the shot and headed to the bedroom. One shake of the jar and all cats were in position. Macy on our bed, PK, Boog and Domino sitting by the kitchen sink waiting for their post shot treats. I rubbed her under the chin to get her purring again, and talked softly to her. Then I slowly worked my way to her scruff, and tented the skin. I pulled the needle cap off with my teeth and prepared to push it in. So far so good, no noise during the tenting stage, which is different than normal. I go to push the needle in and just as it penetrates all heck breaks loose and its a wrestling match. I quickly push the needle in and push the meds in before she can roll too much or swing her butt end away from me. I feel the needle shift as soon as I pushed. I know I got some in, I couldn't feel any wet spots but could smell the insulin.

So immediately after I re cap the needle she spins around, purring loudly again and starts to nudge the treat jar with her head. Trying to keep with the positive reinforcement, I giver her a treat. Then move to the kitchen and reward the other cats for not pounding on the door or crying cause they can't get in, which they all did when we first started this and just makes Macy more upset.

So thats how is gone tonight. We got the weekend coming so I know the next 5 injections will be good ones as we're both home and when we tag team her, she seems to just concede and take the shot.

Edit note: Its been an hour since her shot and she's acting kind of weird tonight. Pacing around the apartment, staring at a litter box in one of the bedrooms but not using it. She still like affection and purrs but seems to be looking to be alone.I'm not sure if its cause we have a storm rolling in or something else. She's never been a fan of thunderstorms but I don;t remember this behavior either.
 
Hey Fred & Kim: It's pretty late down south but I wanted to respond to your latest post. First of all, welcome to the FDMB. All of the members have diabetic cats & know how you're feeling. There's a bit of a learning curve & I see both of you (and Macy) are coming right along.
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I agree that Macy could be picking up on your uneasiness. Before testing Macy, it would be good if you had ate a piece of chocolate, cup of tea, or anything that would relax you. Since you have a meter, have you gone through the testing procedures on yourself to get familiar with everything? Gather all the supplies to have close at hand. Prick your finger with the lancet so you'll see how deep it needs to go in for blood. (For my cats, I use 1 or 2 settings higher to insure a big enough drop of blood without sticking their ear multiple times.) Then test your own blood where you'll see how the process flows. Are you warming & massaging Macy's ear before testing?

Macy sounds like a handful getting used to her new routine. It may take a little while for all of you to become accustom to all the newness but, I promise, it will get easier.

My suggestion is to test & shoot Macy in a place where she's most comfortable. Since you both were relaxing on the couch & you had already drawn the insulin, you could have the meter, etc. nearby to test her there. If the meter & supplies were in the other room, one of you could bring them in without disturbing Macy's relaxation. Then warm & massage her ear (I sometimes warm/massage both ears just in case 1 wouldn't bleed) which might relax her even more. One of you could keep her relaxed with the other tested or one person do it all. Until everyone gets used to testing, it may be better for both to participate. Once you test, have a treat out & ready to give her. She'd be concentrating on eating the treat while you quickly gave her the shot. You might want to give her another treat when she joins the others in the kitchen.

If your bed is the preferred testing place, it may take a few days or longer to make the transition for Macy. She may sense your uneasiness in moving her OR she may be reluctant to leave her comfortable spot on the couch.

I couldn't tell in your post but are you testing twice a day before each shot? It's important to test before giving insulin to make sure her BGs are not too low for insulin. Not knowing her BG prior to insulin could cause her to become hypoglycemic & possibly life-threatening. Parents of a diabetic child wouldn't give insulin unless they knew exactly what their numbers were.

Are you feeding wet food? Changing to wet food could make Macy's BGs decrease. Dry food may contribute to her high BGs. When eating wet food, it's really important to keep a close eye on her BGs.

I hope Macy's feeling better now. I hope her restlessness has calmed down & it was just due to the storms.

Fred & Kim, it took a while for Napoleon & me to figure out how to do this quickly & smoothly. From our experiences, I promise it will get better for everyone. Unfortunately, we could never regulate Napoleon's BGs so our meter read HI pretty often. I'd tell Napoleon that the meter was saying "good morning" or "hello" to him. :)

I'm really glad you've found the FDMB. Any questions or advice you need, please ask. If you want to vent, there's plenty of ears that will listen. We all know the joys & frustrations that comes with having an extra sweet kitty.

All the best to you.
Linda Lee
 
I want to thank all of you for all this great advice. My cat, Jezebel, was just diagnosed yesterday. I'm off the the pet food store to buy some canned dog food. i have to print out Janet's food list. My vet is wonderful - she actually has a diabetic cat herself so is well versed in the treatment. She did mention a supplement in addition to the insulin - one from Only Natural Pet to help with the blood glucose levels. Is anyone using something like this?
I will continue to check this forum. We haven't started insulin yet.....probably next week. I already give one of my dogs allergy shots...so I don't think I'll have a problem with the insulin shots. I'll have to learn how to do the glucose level monitoring though.
Again....many thanks from Florida... flip_cat
Debie & Jezebel
 
FrednkimG said:
1) Macy does not like the shots
Click to expand...
What syringes are you using? The ones you are using may not be fine enough. Are you reusing them? They get dull and can hurt. Only reuse in an emergency. They really aren't too expensive. Relion from WalMart costs less than $13 per 100.

Needle Length:
U100 syringes come with a long (12.7mm or 1/2”) or short (8mm or 5/16”) needle. Most syringes with 1/2 unit markings come in the short length, although some manufacturers do put long needles on barrels with 1/2 unit markings.

Needle Gauge:
U100 syringes come in different thicknesses of needle. The higher the gauge number, the thinner the needle - from 28 (thickest) to 31 (Finest).

Barrel Capacity:
U100 syringes are available in 3 barrel sizes: 1cc (1 ml), 1/2cc (0.5 ml), and 3/10cc (0.3 ml). The size refers to the maximum volume of insulin the syringe will hold.

So, you might want: U100, 30 gauge, ½" long needle, 3/10cc with ½ unit increments

Find more information at: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe#U100_Syringes
 
Sorry its been so long for an update, but we had a computer issue then a long scheduled trip to Nashville.

We use 31 gauge 5/16" needles, only once, never re-use. Shes still struggling with the shots but not as bad as before, I think we're wearing her down.

But we've found a new problem and I'm not sure if its diabetes related. Our son gave her the shots while we were gone Friday, Saturday, and Sunday morning. He said they went okay, but he did miss Sunday mornings shot all together. We tested when we got home and she was at 186, but we noticed her walking really oddly. It took us a while to figure out what exactly was wrong. But it looks like her back legs aren't working right. She can walk, not run, doesn't seem to be in pain, she lets us touch them and she purrs loudly when we touch her. Shes eating, drinking and we think using the litter box, but we've not actually seen her use it, we haven't seen her have any accidents. I've already made an appointment with the Vet for Thursday morning(earliest I could get her in without missing more work), but I'm worried with any changes in Macy now that we know she has health issues.

Might this be diabetes related? Any ideas what it could be? Or is it just a thing and I'm being overly protective?
 
Thanks that website has her exact symptoms. We're still going to the vet on Wednesday but that sounds exactly like whats going on and we're so relieved that its curable.

We'll have to watch out for her for 2 days(I know I said the vet appointment was Thursday, thats cause I thought today was Tuesday already).

Thank You, once again this site and the people here have saved me nights worth of sleep and a bleeding ulcer.
 
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