New to feline diabetes and a reading of 14.0

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Jojeba

Member Since 2020
Hello all,
I’ve taken on a foster cat over the holidays: a rescue (male, 6-8yo) named Tom. He’d been rescued a month ago and after getting all his vet checks and being neutered they noticed he was losing a lot of weight and tests revealed he was diabetic. Which is when they put the call out for a fosterer confident with injections. Which I am. But Tom’s new to his diabetes journey, and so am I!

I have had him three days and am feeling quite the weight of responsibility in making sure he’s ok. I’m absolutely fine with giving him the insulin; what I’m concerned with is his glucose and diet. He’s very underweight - he’s meant to be a big boy but he’s skinny. He has had terrible potent diarrhea since before I got him, which I assume is because he’s not been put on diabetic food yet.

The rescue centre is sending me Purina DM and some diabetic dry food, arriving tomorrow I think. They gave me some normal wet food and a bag of “gastro” dry food which was meant to help his diarrhea. I’ve quickly moved away from the normal wet food and supplemented with protein like boiled chicken and some egg yolk, as I understand this is better for him. I do give him a little of this dried food although I appreciate it’s not ideal. When the diabetic cat food arrives I’ll feed him that but also continue with chicken and egg. He’s also gassy!!

I had issues with the blood glucose machine at first but replaced the battery and today finally got it working - and while I plan to start a proper reading report from tomorrow, pre-feed, I took one tonight after dinner as Tom seemed a little out of it. The reading says 14.0 mmol/L which I believe is high? Should I be worried?

I will do whatever it takes to get this boy to a good state. I’ll be reading through this site but I’d appreciate any guidance, especially re. his glucose reading.

Thank you.
 
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Am just sensing poor Tom seems a bit more foggy-headed tonight, and want to make sure he’s fine before I go to bed. Poor chap.
 
What dose is he on? Have you been over to the Lantus forum and read the yellow stickies about how Lantus works? It reaches its low point between +5-7 usually and we dose based upon that rather than the preshots. Is this the third any on insulin?
 
Waving from Canada.
A reading of 14 (252 in US numbers – multiple by 18) is not all that high. How long after the last Lantus shot was it? And what is the dosage?

You can find information about UK foods and supplies here. The DM dry will be too high in carbs for a diabetic cat.

I'll tag a few UK members for you but it is late at night (as you know). They may not respond until morning.
@Elizabeth and Bertie
@Diana&Tom
@Critter Mom
 
Thanks @tiffmaxee , I’ll take a look at the Lantus forum! He’s on 1u twice a day. He didn’t get any yesterday as the vet dosed him late the night before and wanted me to start from this morning rather than risk overdosing him.
 
Waving from Canada.
A reading of 14 (252 in US numbers – multiple by 18) is not all that high. How long after the last Lantus shot was it? And what is the dosage?

You can find information about UK foods and supplies here. The DM dry will be too high in carbs for a diabetic cat.

I'll tag a few UK members for you but it is late at night (as you know). They may not respond until morning.
@Elizabeth and Bertie
@Diana&Tom
@Critter Mom

That’s super reassuring, thank you! You know I actually figured I wouldn’t give him the diabetic dry food as I’ve heard it’s high in carbs... good to get that confirmed. Wet food only, right?
I also popped in to my local vet to get some advice on his diarrhea; that vet said that if I take him off all cat food and only feed him protein, he is likely to go into remission. I can’t afford to feed him on only meat and the DM wet food is supplied already so hoping a combination of the two will work.

so relieved that glucose reading isn’t crazy high!

Probably won’t sleep well tonight, have quickly become a worried cat mama.
 
Oh, an
Waving from Canada.
A reading of 14 (252 in US numbers – multiple by 18) is not all that high. How long after the last Lantus shot was it? And what is the dosage?

You can find information about UK foods and supplies here. The DM dry will be too high in carbs for a diabetic cat.

I'll tag a few UK members for you but it is late at night (as you know). They may not respond until morning.
@Elizabeth and Bertie
@Diana&Tom
@Critter Mom

oh, and that reading was taken about 2.5 to three hours after his insulin.
 
You want to get a test before you shoot. Snce that was 2.5 hours after he’s safe.

Ok, I did a glucose test this morning, 9 hours since that last one and 12 hours since his last insulin, and before today’s first insulin. Blood glucose was 22.1 (so 397.8 in US measurements).
 
Also, while last night he seemed so foggy-headed and was lying so still on the floor that he had me worried… this morning he's been very lively but it's been driven by ravenousness… I can't stand up without him bolting for the kitchen, and is very vocal about how hungry he is. He has had two good servings of boiled chicken this morning, and a scoop of the (normal) wet food. (Waiting on the Purina DM to arrive, which SHOULD be today.) Does his increase in appetite correlate with his rising blood glucose? Sorry if that's an obvious question, but as I say, it's all new to me, so am learning as I go.
 
Unregulated cats cannot process their food properly. That is why he is ravenous. Feed him.

When are you feeding?

It is best to feed a main meal just before each shot and snacks throughout the cycle, especially the first half of the cycle. Pick up the food at +10 (2 hours before the next shot) to make sure that the pre-shot test number is not food influenced.
If your vet advised you to feed twice a day, well, that's old school and no longer recommended.
 
Unregulated cats cannot process their food properly. That is why he is ravenous. Feed him.

When are you feeding?

It is best to feed a main meal just before each shot and snacks throughout the cycle, especially the first half of the cycle. Pick up the food at +10 (2 hours before the next shot) to make sure that the pre-shot test number is not food influenced.
If your vet advised you to feed twice a day, well, that's old school and no longer recommended.

Thank you... I was advised to feed him twice a day, to tie in with his insulin… but I did read on these forums that it's better to feed snacks throughout the day, so I've given him pieces of chicken, or an egg, or a scoop of wet food when he's been particularly ravenous. And that does seem to have eased any sense of urgency from him.

I've made a note not to feed him two hours before his evening shot.

Is his morning glucose reading of 378 any cause for concern?
 
Is his morning glucose reading of 378 any cause for concern?
No. Get a couple of mid-cycle tests in if you can. The more data you can provide, the better we can help you with the dosing.
And head over to the Lantus Forum and read through the yellow stickies at the top.
Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)

Take a look at some of the individual threads and the spreadsheets (the link to a cat's spreadsheet is in the signature at the bottom of a post).
 
No. Get a couple of mid-cycle tests in if you can. The more data you can provide, the better we can help you with the dosing.
And head over to the Lantus Forum and read through the yellow stickies at the top.
Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)

Take a look at some of the individual threads and the spreadsheets (the link to a cat's spreadsheet is in the signature at the bottom of a post).

I find the numbers very hard to understand. For instance, his evening reading (taken three hours after last food) was 24.4 (439). And I have no idea what that actually means.
 
(I am keeping all of this monitored on his own spreadsheet – I just don't really know what I'm looking at!)
 
Feline diabetes is a steep learning curve. You will get the hang of it in no time.

Tagging a few UK people again. Sometimes tags don't work.
@Elizabeth and Bertie
@Diana&Tom

The more testing you do, the more you will be able to see a pattern.
By using our spreadsheet, we can see the pattern too.
If you have questions about dosing or are experiencing low numbers, the spreadsheet is the first place we look.

Start with
New? How You Can Help Us Help You!
Then
from the The Basics: New to the Group? Start here!


Learn how YOUR kitty is responding to insulin:​
    • Onset - the length of time before insulin reaches the bloodstream & begins lowering blood glucose
    • Peak/Nadir - the lowest point in the cycle
    • Duration - the length of time insulin continues to lower blood glucose
    • How to do a Curve - a simple explanation

Example of an ACTIVE, but NOT necessarily typical Lantus/Basaglar cycle:
NOTE: Until kitty is pretty well regulated, the description below is NOT not what you'd consider a "typical" Lantus/Basaglar cycle. It takes time and patience for kitty to achieve a "typical" cycle! The example below is what you're working towards (a nice shallow curve). A relatively flat cycle is the ultimate goal.

+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. Onset begins around +2 for most cats. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar OR lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Often lower than the PreShot number.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Basaglar/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.

An active Levemir cycle will have an onset at approximately +4 and a nadir around +8 - +10. However, please keep in mind every cat is different (ECID). Data collection will offer you a better picture of YOUR cat's response to either of these insulins.

Initially, don't expect to see "active" cycles after every single shot whether you're using Lantus/Basaglar or Levemir. Chances are, your kitty had diabetes for some time before diagnosis. It requires time for kitty's body to become used to dropping into lower numbers than their bodies have become accustomed. Don't expect immediate results! Regulation takes time and patience:
NOTE: Until kitty is pretty well regulated, the description below is NOT not what you'd consider a "typical" Lantus/Basaglar cycle. It takes time and patience for kitty to achieve a "typical" cycle! The example below is what you're working towards (a nice shallow curve). A relatively flat cycle is the ultimate goal.
+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. Onset begins around +2 for most cats. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar OR lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Often lower than the PreShot number.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Basaglar/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.
An active Levemir cycle will have an onset at approximately +4 and a nadir around +8 - +10. However, please keep in mind every cat is different (ECID). Data collection will offer you a better picture of YOUR cat's response to either of these insulins.
Initially, don't expect to see "active" cycles after every single shot whether you're using Lantus/Basaglar or Levemir. Chances are, your kitty had diabetes for some time before diagnosis. It requires time for kitty's body to become used to dropping into lower numbers than their bodies have become accustomed. Don't expect immediate results! Regulation takes time and patience:​
    • Also worth noting: "Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations." http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm. Here in the Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir Insulin Support Group (ISG), we've affectionately dubbed this unexplained phenomenon "New Dose Wonkiness" (NDW).
A full understanding of the following concepts will go a long way in helping you regulate your kitty's blood glucose when using Lantus/Basaglar or Levemir:​
    • Carryover - insulin effects lasting past the insulin's official duration
    • Overlap - the period of time when the effect of one insulin shot is diminishing and the next insulin shot is taking effect
    • Insulin Depot - a "spare tank" of insulin, which has yet to be used by the body
    • Lantus, Basaglar & Levemir: What is the Insulin Depot?
    • Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

'What is Regulation?':
There are different definitions of regulation. As hometesting becomes more common, we've been getting a better understanding of what cats and their humans might be capable of. Janet & Fitzgerald propose the following "regulation continuum":​
    • Not treated - blood glucose typically above 300 mg/dl (16.7 mmol/L), poor clinical signs
    • Treated, but not regulated - often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs
    • Regulated - generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia
    • Well regulated - generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia
    • Tightly regulated - generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin
    • Normalized - 60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin
There may also be an extra category of "mostly above 300 (16.7) but with good clinical signs" which occurs with some cats who are getting insulin. We don't know why it happens, but such a cat probably should not be considered to be regulated. On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible for a cat who is not getting insulin to have blood glucose as low as 40 mg/dl (2.2 mmol/L) on a glucometer calibrated for humans. If you have a non-diabetic cat, try testing her with the same meter to get a safe comparison figure.​
 
It would be great if you would start one of our spreadsheets as it’s hard to give dosing advice without one.
 
Hello (sorry, don’t know your name?)
This is a great place for info, advice and support when you’re treating FD so well done for finding us! There are a few of us in the UK, not many, but that’s ok as all the theory you need is universal, it’s just issues like where to buy certain things that fellow UKers can help with. Do you have any specific questions we can try to address for you?

I don’t have any knowledge of or experience with Lantus but you’ve been pointed in the direction of the forum here, so hopefully that will be helpful.

If you’re on Facebook there’s a very good group dedicated to supporting owners of diabetic cats in the UK - you’d have to join to see what goes on there but I can vouch for it being a very friendly, knowledgeable group of people - search for: Support group for the owners of cats with feline diabetes:UK

Best of luck!
 
Will you be able to start testing at AMPS and PMPS? We also need amid cycle test whenever possible. At night a before bed test will help. Lantus is dosed based upon how low it takes the cat. The pretests are to make sure the BG is high enough to shoot. Thanks for starting a spreadsheet. We now need data to advise dosing.
 
Thank you for taking on Major Tom. What a lucky boy he is....and gorgeous.
Ask all the questions you need to...we are always happy to answer them.
 
Will you be able to start testing at AMPS and PMPS? We also need amid cycle test whenever possible. At night a before bed test will help. Lantus is dosed based upon how low it takes the cat. The pretests are to make sure the BG is high enough to shoot. Thanks for starting a spreadsheet. We now need data to advise dosing.

I so appreciate the help. So… is AMPS/PMPS a pre-shoot test? That's what I'm doing now, isn't it?

I couldn't take his BG before breakfast this morning – he gets so frenzied before he eats in the morning, that I often struggle to get hold of him to take the blood. I can prick his ear but getting the blood is tricky. When he's hungry he gets easily riled up and cross (poor hangry boy!).
 
I so appreciate the help. So… is AMPS/PMPS a pre-shoot test? That's what I'm doing now, isn't it?

I couldn't take his BG before breakfast this morning – he gets so frenzied before he eats in the morning, that I often struggle to get hold of him to take the blood. I can prick his ear but getting the blood is tricky. When he's hungry he gets easily riled up and cross (poor hangry boy!).
AMPS is am preshot. PMPS is pm preshot.
If he is frantic to eat, you could give him a small amount as you test to distract him. The test is supposed to be taken before food but it won’t hurt if you need to give a small amount to distract him. It takes 20 mins to get into the system so wouldn’t affect the numbers.

If you are having trouble getting the blood but have pricked his ear, you might be able to get it on your finger nail and then test it from there.

How is the diarrhoea? Has it settled yet? Plain boiled pumpkin Is good for diarrhoea. Just boil it is water, drain and mash. Freeze in small lots and give 1/2 teaspoon twice a day and can increase that if needed.
Also the probiotic Boulardii is very good for diarrhoea


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