New obese foster with crystals

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Steph & Cuddles (GA)

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Please meet Fiona!
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak- ... 6545_n.jpg

I've been approached by another rescue organization (Maine Coon) to foster Fiona and try to get her to a suitable weight for her. She obviously may not be OBESE, but is definitely fat. She can't groom her back end, and obviously isn't healthy. The story of me taking in Cher & her losing weight has spread, and they're hoping I can help Fiona.. as am I! The one huge difference, is Fiona has crystals. They have her on a diet FOR crystals, but at least it's a wet food. It's Royal Canin Urinary SO I believe..? I asked if they knew which KIND of crystals she had, and the tech I met up with today didn't think they tested which kind. Said this food helped with both kinds of crystals. She said the old-style foods from Hills have the different foods for the different crystals, but that's not needed anymore, or updated. She is NOT a fan of Hill's either! (The mutual friend who asked if I'd be willing to help, I made clear to her that I wouldn't foster Fiona if they expected me to feed dry food. I wanted to do it MY way, since it obviously worked so well with Cher!)

So they're paying for her special food, and the vet checks are free for rescues. I have a scale here (that I use for Cher) but they also want monthly checkups obviously, and weigh-ins for their own checks. They say she's eating one 5.5 oz can of this food a day.. so however I want to split it up.. anywhere from 2-4 meals. Figure I'll feed like I do mine.. half a can in the morning, and the other half at night. Mine get low carb Friskies though, so will have to keep feedings separate. Looking it up on J&B food charts, it does look like it's low carb too. (4%?)

But my main question, is if anyone has crystal knowledge? I've never had a cat with crystals, so don't know much more except that there are 2 kinds, struvite, and oxy-something? And that there are levels of acidity or such that you can feed them to help the crystals. So she's on the crystal food now, but will she be on it forever? I'm guessing I should probably add some water to the food as well. It's wet pate food, but not all that watery at all. No 'juice' or anything in the can.. kind of reminds me of Wellness, or some of the more expensive brands (obviously.. this isn't a cheap food either!). But could I possibly cause problems if I gave her some wet Friskies with my group? Down the road, I'd love to get her on just a regular food (for potential adopters) - but I have no idea if that's even an option with an overweight cat with crystals. (& will the crystals eventually go away when she slims down on wet food?)

She IS a sweet cat, but is obviously scared, and not sure what's going on. She's had a hard past, with the last home she was in, with teenagers, and a crazy german shepherd puppy that chased her around. So she's very vocal with meowing at me, but will throw a hiss or growl in there for good measure. :razz: When I got her home this morning, I took her in my room with me, and locked my kitties out. Gave her some food, and took a nap with her. She came out of the carrier, and immediately started rubbing on me & purring! :smile: She wanted to lie where I was going to for a nap though, so I tried moving her. OOPS! Got a couple bites on my hands, but I didn't think it broke the skin at the time. I have 2 small 'scrapes' on my hand where her bottom 2 canines hit my hand/thumb area. That's not a reason to go into the Dr for antibiotics is it? At the time, it just looked like indentations from her teeth, but when it cleared up, there were tiny little scabs that are only maybe 1/8-1/4" long. Hoping it's more like a cat scratch, than a bite. I've never REALLY been bitten before, and I'm allergic to most antibiotics out there except for the family w/ the z-pak. So I get nervous about bites obviously!

Anyway, sorry this is long, but was just hoping to find someone with some knowledge about crystals in overweight kitties! :smile:
 
My civi Stuart eats canned SO and I mix extra water. Sturvite crystals form in a more alkaline/basic urine while oxalate crystals form in a more acid urine. When you look at the urine sediment under a microscope and if you see crystals you can usually tell the type because they look different. Stuvite (also called triple phosphate) are more common. In females crystals very very seldom cause blockages. However, they can result in bladder stones.
 
Larry, does Stuart HAVE to eat the canned SO in order to not have problems with the crystals? Do you know which crystals he has? I wish the vet at least knew which kind she has. I may find out.. someone may know (like the rescue) - but the tech that was in today (cleaning, they weren't open to the public today) just may not have known off hand.
 
Stuart has/had stuvite crystals and had a urethral cutdown (my vet really does not know what that is but that is what the records showed) before I adopted him. The stone/crystal was removed analyzed. He was on urinary food when I adopted him and I do not want to risk another blockage so I continue the urinary food. Somebody should know the type of crystals that Fiona has. It should be in her records.
 
BJM said:
Take a moment to read over on http://catinfo.org/ She mentions crystals about halfway down the page. Might help you decide what to do.

BJ
Ooh thanks! I thought I knew Dr Lisa's website up, down, left & right, but I guess not! ;-) I'll have to ask if she only has crystals, or actually has stones. I think they only mentioned crystals when talking about her.
 
Hi Steph

I would just add water to the SO food. Frequent urination flushes out crystals, no matter what the type. She may not need the special food, but why argue? It is a decent enough canned food and they are paying for it. Cats with stones can benefit from certain dissolution foods, and rare cats (for reasons that may not be clear) have a strong tendency to form crystals which will cause symptoms like painful urination. I've posted before, I have a close friend whose cat is on x/d food because she forms CaOx crystals and develops painful hematuria (bloody urine), despite eating high-quality, watered-down canned. They're not fans of rx foods and tried twice to get her off the food but twice she ended up with a ton of crystals (you could see the 'sludge' on ultrasound) and ran around the house urinating small amounts while yowling with pain. So she is on x/d forever.

It is extremely unlikely that your foster is such a rare case, but I wouldn't mess with it at this point. Water, water, water will help though. I would also see about super low-carb snacks (dried chicken, etc.) so that she still can have a treat now and then, this will facilitate her getting used to being handled as well.

If your puncture/scratches aren't reddened and puffy, they are probably ok, but you can always see your human doctor if you are concerned.

HTH.
 
Hi Steph,

In a hurry here so, I confess, I have not read your entire post but....

No discussion of crystals should ever be had without asking how the crystals were actually diagnosed. This is covered on my Urinary Tract Health page and also on my main Feeding Your Cat page.

Crystals can form once outside of the bladder for more than ~30 minutes so it makes me a bit nutty to talk about crystals without discussing if they are even real or not!

I get so tired of seeing cats put on Rx diets without a solid diagnosis.....

Also, keep in mind that crystals are not necessarily an abnormal finding in cat urine. The diagnostician also has to consider the specific gravity of the urine, etc.

Negatives of SO:

1) 20% carbs (corn flour is the source and in humans, at least, "flours" are very high on the glycemic index scale)

2) expensive

3) less convenient to source

4) will deter any adopter from adopting her

So...I see plenty of reasons to question feeding this diet.
 
Thanks Jess & Dr Lisa! I wonder though, Dr Lisa, you said that the SO food is 20% from carbs, but the one I checked on the charts says 4%..? Am I checking the right one? Or is the list maybe not updated? I wasn't going to make a big stink about it at first, just because it seemed like a decent food to have her on right now at least. (AND the fact that it's wet food!)

I'm definitely going to get more details about the crystals though. I talked to the lady at the shelter today.. she wanted to just make sure I picked her up yesterday, and all was fine. We exchanged e-mail addresses for updates though, as I was at my mom's house & couldn't talk for very long. I'll find out what tests they did, and maybe get any results sent to me. I only met with one of the techs that was in on a Saturday when they were closed, as she was in there to feed/clean for the day. So I'm sure I didn't get the whole story on what tests were run. I know they did a full bloodwork panel & such.. so I'm hoping they did some testing with her showing 'crystals' in her urine. They did say her bloodwork looked fine though.. so will e-mail her & ask what urine testing they did for the crystals.

Thanks for all the help, and so I know what kind of questions to ask about it!

P.S. I LOVE what networking with animal peeps can accomplish! They heard about me & Cher, because the tech I met up there had previously worked at AAWL years ago, and knew Lisa.. that's a tech at the shelter now. Lisa will help out organizations by shaving kitties who are all matted up.. she helped me shave a stray that was outside my house & all matted. So Lisa went to this clinic to help shave some kitties from the Maine Coon rescue that were matted. Lisa was also there when I adopted Cher, and knew the progress I've made with her. So of course, Lisa brought my name up, and how I've gotten Cher to lose weight, etc.. So they were hoping I'd be able to foster Fiona, and work with them to get her to lose weight & become adoptable again. Poor thing has a sore butt too. :sad: I got some baby wipes for her.. haven't had to use any for quite a few years since Cher hasn't needed them for a long time now!
 
Steph & Cuddles (GA) said:
I wonder though, Dr Lisa, you said that the SO food is 20% from carbs, but the one I checked on the charts says 4%..? Am I checking the right one? Or is the list maybe not updated?

I recently threw away my 2006 RC product guide but I highly doubt that they ever made SO with only 4% of calories from carbs.

The 2009 product guide states:

Canned: 18.4% carb calories
Pouches: 20.5%

Steph & Cuddles (GA) said:
I'm definitely going to get more details about the crystals though.

Keep in mind that any value from an *outside* lab (Antech, Idexx, etc) is going to have a major time delay of many, many hours. Crystals need to be assessed in-house.

And I will repeat....just because a cat has some crystals in their urine, this does NOT necessarily mean that they need to be fed an Rx diet.
 
Will let you guys know what I find out.. definitely going to try & find out what tests were run, and the results!

Here's a better pic of her from my regular camera: (Lisa tried to get creative with her haircut.) :roll: Although she doesn't like her tummy being touched, so that may be why she chose this cut. ;-)


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