New Member

[Darcy]

Hi,

I'm Darcy. Gemma is our 13+ yr old Torti. She was found on our property with 6 kittens back in Aug of 2010. When we couldn't find her family we took them all in. We are currently a 13 cat household.

Gemma has been prone to urinary trouble over the last few years and at a few of the vet appts they discovered glucose in her urine. They put her on Purina Pro Plan DM dry and wet. She is still on the dry but hated the wet so I switched over to some Fancy feast, Sheba and Tiki Cat products. At her last vet appt for another UTI they told me that they wanted to see her after the antibiotic ran it's course for a follow up on the urine glucose. It was at that follow up on April 26 that they put her on insulin and it was shortly after that when I found this site. I have been reading as much as I can.

I would also like to mention the Gemma is obese. Most of the weight gain is from this last year. I am determined to help her lose weight but would like to wait until we can get her numbers down so she isn't starving.

I have been with the same vet for many years but I don't think they deal with Diabetes much. I gave them a copy of Gemma's spreadsheet on May 19th and was told they would call me to talk about adjusting the dose. I am still waiting to hear from them. I guess I have to call them.

So, I think I could use some help please. I need to be a safe as possible with her. My husband and I own our own shop and we commute so some of our work days can get long. I am almost done putting together her HYPO tool box. I test her urine ketones daily.

A note about my spreadsheet though. I recently read that when you take a glucose reading and put that number in the spreadsheet, if it isn't exactly on the hour the number needs to reflect that by .25, .50 or .75. I will go back in and fix that for the numbers after starting Lantus.

Gemma is currently taking Amoxicillin & Clavulanate 2ml, 2x daily until June 2nd.

Thank you for reading,
Darcy

 

[.:. in.active .:.]

Hello Darcy and Gemma (+12 )
First I'd like to state that I'm in the UK and my boy is still on Caninsulin, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt, and perhaps wait for the more experienced members to reply, confirm or deny whether or not what I say is plausible.
From what I've read on this site (both readily available information in stickies and FAQs as well as conversations between other members) Lantus depot needs 7 days to build up in the system, and if the numbers still do not go down by that point, then you should increase the dose (by 0.25iu I believe, to stay on the safe side), which then you'd hold for 7 days and so on and so forth. I see Gemma being on the same dose for almost 2 weeks, and her numbers haven't changed...
Please take note: THIS IS NOT A DOSING ADVICE, this is my knowledge, so the credibility of this information is questionable.
My close friend's diabetic boy was also prone to various internal infections (UTI included) and his boy's numbers would run lower whilst he's been suffering from those infections. (He was on Lantus too.) I'm not saying Gemma's number may be higher than what you see, I'm saying this was the case with the cat I knew.
I'd also like to add, that I have no idea whether (if in any way) her other medications do or would have any effects on her numbers. (I would assume the vet wouldn't prescribe any steroids for her, knowing fully well she's diabetic.) "Administration of diabetogenic drugs (e.g. steroid, progestagens) could be involved in the cause of diabetes mellitus" (from RVC)
If anything, I just wanted to say hello, and to assure you that you're seen and at the right place. The experienced members can help you with dosing, a lot of people here can't afford to wait around for their vets to dictate their cats' lives.
So yeah, I know I've said a lot, likely meaningless stuff, but I just wanted you to know that someone has seen your post, and I'm sure help is on the way in the form of mods and more experienced members

 

[Darcy]

Hi evedroid,

Thank you very much for taking time to respond. It's cool talking to someone from another country that I wouldn't have otherwise I am so sorry that your boy has to deal with the diabetes. I don't think anything you said was meaningless. I find hearing about other's experiences often helps me learn more quickly. I am sure I will always have more questions than answers. I have been reluctant to change Gemma's dose due to the UTI infection and meds. Unsure how they affect her numbers like you say. I really wanted my vet involved more in the beginning.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hi Darcy and Gemma and welcome to the forum.
Thank you for setting up the spreadsheet and signature so quickly. It is very helpful for us to be able to help you.
Were the urine samples sent away to test to see if Gemma had a UTI or did the vet just give you antibiotics?
Looking at the spreadsheet, I can see that Gemma needs more insulin. But before I increased the dose, I would look at getting rid of the dry food which is high carb and not suitable for diabetic cats.
Have a look at the FOOD CHART here and look for wet foods that are 10% or under carbs. Most feed around 4-7% carbs.
I would swap completely over to a low carb wet food first and see if that helps the BGs at all.
If not, I would then start to increase the dose of insulin. We can help you with that.
But best to just do one thing at a time and I would start with changing the food over.
You are using a good insulin for cats in Lantus.
Keep asking questions. We are very happy to help you in any way.
I would also look at the two DOSING METHODS here. I think you could do tight regulation once you get rid of the dry food. You are testing enough to do it.
Bron

 

[.:. in.active .:.]

Bron just reminded me of the food talk re: Purina DM dry I wanted to, but completely forgot to mention:
I noticed it on my boy how much food matters. When I only feed him with Sheba 3% he gives me much better numbers compared to when I mix in even just half a pouch of his old (10%) food into the low carb.
I also wanted to say, that sometimes the big brand "diabetic" labelled foods not necessarily the lowest in carbs that you can get out there.
Although my diabetic only eats wet food now and doesn't anymore graze regardless of how hungry the diabetes makes him feel, I always have water and low carb dry food down, given we are a multiply cat household too.
Purina MD dry has 23.5% carbs / 100g whereas Thrive Turkey + Chicken has only 17% / 100g. This is the lowest I could find up to date, not sure whether it's available in the US? I get mine from Amazon.
I'm sure you're aware of the below calculators to help you out re: foods, but just in case:

Caticles
Scheyder
BalanceIt

I believe a lot of people here use BalanceIt, but I recall founding discrepancies before, it giving me slightly lower carb% values than the other two. (Not sure whether it was due to incorrect values listed on the actual food labels though, or if the actual calculator is programmed slightly differently.) Personally I prefer playing it safe and go by the other two. Caticles gives you decimals, Scheyder rounds the numbers.

Edit: every time I reply on my phone and not on the desktop, my letters are oversized for whatever reason. I'm so sorry, I'm not shouting, I promise!

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

A note about my spreadsheet though. I recently read that when you take a glucose reading and put that number in the spreadsheet, if it isn't exactly on the hour the number needs to reflect that by .25, .50 or .75. I will go back in and fix that for the numbers after starting Lantus.

Welcome Darcy and Gemma ,you couldn't have found a better group to join. If it wasn't for the experienced members here giving be advice I know Tyler wouldn't be in remission since 1-24-21.
Yes you are correct that if you don't test on the hour you would enter like this
Here's an example if you tested Gemma at 3.30 and her BG was 220 you would enter it in the 3 cell on the spreadsheet like this
220 +3.5 and then color code it manually.
.25 is 15 minutes
.5 30 minutes
.75 45 minutes
You can give her some freeze dried treats also ,they are low carb as a treat


Tap on this blue link and read post #64 the post numbers are to the right of each post and you can read about the freeze dried treats I listed

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-to-this-i-need-advice.269452/#post-3007388

You can even give small pieces of plain boiled chicken

 

[Darcy]

Hi Bron,

First, I really want to thank you for your time.

The results for the urine sample are RBC=16; WBC=87; bact-cocci +; GLU=4+; PH=6.5; sp. gr=1.024. This was actually a follow up because I was seeing signs that the first round of treatment didn't take care of the infection which was treated with Veraflox.

I believe that the wet food Gemma has been eating for the last several months is considered low carb. She likes all of the Sheba pate flavors and all of the Tiki Cat velvety mousse flavors except the duck. Occasionally she will eat some of the Fancy Feast pate. I recently bought some Weruva pate products but have yet to try them. Gemma wakes me up every morning at about 3am for a snack so I withheld the dry and only fed wet. I did the same for her breakfast and only loaded her auto feeder with wet. She is so hungry right now that she doesn't seem to mind.

I did skim over the dosing methods a couple weeks ago so I will need to go back and read again more carefully.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

It would help if you could put in the remarks column of the spreadsheet what you feed each day. That way we can see when you are feeding dry food. Thanks.
If you are not feeding any dry now, we can look at increasing the dose of Lantus

 

[Darcy]

I noticed that some of you have quoted a question or statement made by another member when responding. Is this something I need to be doing? if so, how do I do that?

Bron, Gemma last had dry food the first half of the day on Thursday. No dry food since. I cannot believe how much lower her numbers are just from letting go of the dry. I will try to be better at the remarks column but some days its just not gonna happen.

Diane, Thank you for the list of treats. It is incredibly helpful! I am heading into town shortly to look for some on the list.

evedroid, Wow! I had no idea how high the carbs were on the Pro Plan DM. They ought to be ashamed to call it diabetic food! Thank you so much for pointing that out. Also, I was not aware of the calculators so thank you for those links. I will use them.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

I noticed that some of you have quoted a question or statement made by another member when responding. Is this something I need to be doing? if so, how do I do that?

Hi Darcy I really don't know what you mean by this?
Can you explain
Do you mean when a member might ask you something and you want to reply back to that specific person?

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Diane, Thank you for the list of treats. It is incredibly helpful! I am heading into town shortly to look for some on the list.

You're welcome

 

[.:. in.active .:.]

I noticed that some of you have quoted a question or statement made by another member when responding. Is this something I need to be doing? if so, how do I do that?


evedroid, Wow! I had no idea how high the carbs were on the Pro Plan DM. They ought to be ashamed to call it diabetic food! Thank you so much for pointing that out. Also, I was not aware of the calculators so thank you for those links. I will use them.

On the bottom right side of each post you have the option to "Reply". That's what we use. I don't think you have to use it, but it certainly helps to know who you're talking to, without you having to memorise all our names.

No problem at all! Just to add to my previous comment: Said Thrive food arrived yesterday, and the analytics on the actual bag were slightly different than the analytics on the photo of the bag online. It's still only 19% carbs, but discrepancies like this happen often (in the UK anyway). I ordered wet food based on the analytics online claiming to be 5.5% when in reality it's 8% so watch out for this too
Also, my boy dived straight into the dry after it arriving, making his 5.0 mmol/L (~90 mg/dl) shoot up to 30+ mmol/L (~550 mg/dl) within a couple of hours
So yeah... Better off without kibbles. With that said though, I believe Gemma will learn. I have bought new kibbles, because my boy gone off the previous diabetic one, regardless of clearly being hungry. Thought it was due to fussiness. Nope. He learnt it makes him feel pants, so avoided it. Today I still had the kibbles down for the other cats all day, but my baby boy wouldn't go near it. If you really can not avoid having dry food down for the other 12, still, make sure it's low carb (better of the two evils, at least it won't do as much harm to the others) and once Gemma's BG is finally under control, I'm sure she'll realise to avoid what makes her feel crappy. You got this!
xEve

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Bron, Gemma last had dry food the first half of the day on Thursday. No dry food since. I cannot believe how much lower her numbers are just from letting go of the dry. I will try to be better at the remarks column but some days its just not gonna happen.

Quite a difference once you remove the dry food, isn’t there?

I noticed that some of you have quoted a question or statement made by another member when responding. Is this something I need to be doing? if so, how do I do that?

If you want to answer someone, you can either just tap the reply button. Or you can hilight part of it as I have done here and it will say reply and you tap that.

 

[Darcy]

Funny. I originally tried to use the reply button but it didn't look the same as when I am looking at a post that one of you have made with the quote. Yours show up in peach color and mine didn't. Maybe it changes once you actually post the reply.

Sorry about your pet food fiasco Eve. Can I ask what your kitties name is? I am lucky that Gemma keeps to my bathroom at the moment where it is carpeted. She rarely ventures out anymore with her weight problem. I feed all the other cats in the kitchen and she does not like the linoleum floors. I have been working on getting the other 12 on Dr. Elsey's clean protein. Their diet is still predominantly wet but they love their kibble. They have been on Taste of the Wild, Solid Gold and some of the Pro Plan for 10+ years.

Diane, I found some great treats today. Petco has a whole arsenal of freeze dried treats. I got PureBites wild caught shrimp; Orijen made with Beef liver, Goat, Wild Boar, and Lamb; Whole Hearted Turkey Liver and Whole Hearted Chicken Liver. I tried the Orijen first and she really took to it. My cats have never had treats before so I wasn't sure what to expect.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Maybe it changes once you actually post the reply.

Yes it does

 

[.:. in.active .:.]

Can I ask what your kitties name is?

His name is Rorschach (as in the projective psychological inkblot test) because he's black and white, almost symmetrically, even having a white line down his spine, where the paper would be folded to smudge the ink.
But it's hard to write and even harder to pronounce, so I just call him Baby Boy on this platform.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Diane, I found some great treats today. Petco has a whole arsenal of freeze dried treats. I got PureBites wild caught shrimp; Orijen made with Beef liver, Goat, Wild Boar, and Lamb; Whole Hearted Turkey Liver and Whole Hearted Chicken Liver. I tried the Orijen first and she really took to it. My cats have never had treats before so I wasn't sure what to expect.

Hi Darcy, I'm so glad they like the treats, now Gemma will have a nice smorgasbord of treats to pick from

 

[Darcy]

Quite a difference once you remove the dry food, isn’t there?

If you want to answer someone, you can either just tap the reply button. Or you can hilight part of it as I have done here and it will say reply and you tap that.

Definitely makes a difference. Since I have not changed her diet in the last couple days are the higher numbers a bounce?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Definitely makes a difference. Since I have not changed her diet in the last couple days are the higher numbers a bounce?

Are you still not feeding any dry food?
A bounce can happen when the BGs drop to a lower BG than the cat is used to so he could well be bouncing from the yellow BGs over the last few days. Or he may not be getting enough duration yet.
I think once you have not fed any dry food for 4 days, you could increase the dose to 2.25 U and see how that goes.

 

[Darcy]

Are you still not feeding any dry food?
A bounce can happen when the BGs drop to a lower BG than the cat is used to so he could well be bouncing from the yellow BGs over the last few days. Or he may not be getting enough duration yet.
I think once you have not fed any dry food for 4 days, you could increase the dose to 2.25 U and see how that goes.

No dry since 5/25 pm. Should I wait for my next day off (Wednesday) so I can be home to monitor?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

No dry since 5/25 pm. Should I wait for my next day off (Wednesday) so I can be home to monitor?

It’s up to you. It can take up to 6 cycles for the full effect of a dose increase to be seen, so it is possible nothing much will change for a day or two to the BGs, or they might..
Looking at your SS you seem to manage to test most days during the day

 

[Darcy]

Are you still not feeding any dry food?
A bounce can happen when the BGs drop to a lower BG than the cat is used to so he could well be bouncing from the yellow BGs over the last few days. Or he may not be getting enough duration yet.
I think once you have not fed any dry food for 4 days, you could increase the dose to 2.25 U and see how that goes.

Hi Bron,

I gave Gemma 2.25U this am as you suggested for the next step since she is altogether off the dry. I am hoping to see a drop in numbers over the next couple days. Thank you for guiding me through the steps!