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[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Hi
I have 3 cats and our 14 year old boy, Mac, has just been diagnosed with diabetes. We noticed he was drinking more and looking a little scrawny ( he has always been around 6kg) so weighed him and he had lost weigh. A blood test and urine test followed and it was confirmed he had diabetes. He was started on insulin on Saturday (15th August) on a small 1iu dose twice a day and we are due back at the vets for a follow up next Monday (24th). I found the posts really useful on this site so finally got around to joining.
Giving the jabs had been going really well and I was feeling quite proud ....until yesterday. 1- For some reason I decided to get the tiny lines on the syringe mixed up and gave 1.5iu instead in his morning and evening jabs. I realised after doing the evening one but aquick call to the vet (we have a really good 24hour service) told me not too worry as it was such a tiny amount for his size and to just give more food especially as he had been so bouncy all day. 2- Then today I tried moving his injection site from places around the scruff of his neck to his hip scruff as I read on the web you should move about - that was the first time he noticed it and did not like it. 3- tonight I went back to the scruff but he was not as distracted by his food, moved at just the wrong time and the needle went a bit too far so some (maybe all) of the insulin ended up on the fur on the other side - a quick call to the vet again and was told not too worry as just a slight underdose so would jot harm.
Thank goodness for great accessible vets but have to say I am now a bit depressed as it has knocked my confidence a bit.

 

[Hercule's mum]

Hi Gill, I am always afraid I will do the same. Please don't beat yourself. You are taking great care of Mac, and it is a lot to keep track of it.

I have been thinking about getting a sharpie and marking the syringes in an afernoon, when that is all I am thinking about it, so I don't get confused at shooting time because usually there is a lot of going on... Maybe that can be helpful?

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Thats sounds like a great idea thanks - especially as the vet said his dose may be changed a few times over the coming weeks as they get him stabilised.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Welcome to FDMB Gil and Mac! Glad you decided to join our family. We are devoted to our diabetic kitties and will help any that find this site. Theres a wealth of information here with plenty of people to help you navigate this disease. You *may* want to start here:
New? How You Can Help Us Help You!

It sounds like you have a good vet. Thats a relief isnt it? Theres a couple of things we need to be able to help you. Setting up a spread sheet you can find how to do that here:
FDMB SPREADSHEET INSTRUCTIONS This will help us track Macs daily insulin needs and how its worki

I dont know why I cant find the signature link but someone will fill in that blank.

Ask all the questions you want. The only dumb question is the one not asked.
Again welcome to the best darn site to learn everything there is, you need to know about feline diabetes!
jeanne

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

Fill a syringe with coloured water and keep it beside your syringe box.
Check that an insulin filled syringe is the same.

Signature information can be found here:

• Creating a FDMB Profile
• Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

Welcome. Waving from Canada.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Thanks Kel. I really think this heat is getting to me gonna take a break .

 

[Maddie Mouse]

Hi
Then today I tried moving his injection site from places around the scruff of his neck to his hip scruff as I read on the web you should move about - that was the first time he noticed it and did not like it.

Thank goodness for great accessible vets but have to say I am now a bit depressed as it has knocked my confidence a bit.

Hi Gill! I know exactly how you feel - just started on the insulin with Maddie a couple of weeks ago. It's really hard at first, trying to get into a routine and worrying about hurting your kitty when he's already unwell, but this site has a lot of great resources. There's a great video in one of the guides, about training your cat not to mind injections, which I'm going to try out tonight!

If it helps, I've found that Maddie seems quite sensitive around her shoulder blades, so the areas suggested by the vet weren't working for us. When I tried moving the non-scruff injection sites further back, like equivalent to the small of the back on a human and a couple of inches either side of her spine, she objected less. I also fill the syringe about half an hour before her injection, put the cap back on and leave it in a safe place to warm up a bit, because I wasn't sure if it was the cold temperature of a needle dipped into chilly insulin, or the sting of the Lantus, which is quite acidic - she's on ProZinc now, though, so we'll see if I need to continue with that.

 

[Dusty & Roe]

Hi
I have 3 cats and our 14 year old boy, Mac, has just been diagnosed with diabetes. We noticed he was drinking more and looking a little scrawny ( he has always been around 6kg) so weighed him and he had lost weigh. A blood test and urine test followed and it was confirmed he had diabetes. He was started on insulin on Saturday (15th August) on a small 1iu dose twice a day and we are due back at the vets for a follow up next Monday (24th). I found the posts really useful on this site so finally got around to joining.
Giving the jabs had been going really well and I was feeling quite proud ....until yesterday. 1- For some reason I decided to get the tiny lines on the syringe mixed up and gave 1.5iu instead in his morning and evening jabs. I realised after doing the evening one but aquick call to the vet (we have a really good 24hour service) told me not too worry as it was such a tiny amount for his size and to just give more food especially as he had been so bouncy all day. 2- Then today I tried moving his injection site from places around the scruff of his neck to his hip scruff as I read on the web you should move about - that was the first time he noticed it and did not like it. 3- tonight I went back to the scruff but he was not as distracted by his food, moved at just the wrong time and the needle went a bit too far so some (maybe all) of the insulin ended up on the fur on the other side - a quick call to the vet again and was told not too worry as just a slight underdose so would jot harm.
Thank goodness for great accessible vets but have to say I am now a bit depressed as it has knocked my confidence a bit.

Gill can I ask if you are lifting the skin a little bit to make a tent it makes it easier ?

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Gill can I ask if you are lifting the skin a little bit to make a tent it makes it easier ?

Hi - yes I've been doing that and it had been working well until last night when he moved - I think that may have been because he hadn't liked it yesterday morning when I moved to the hip area. Went back to the scruff this morning which gives a better tent and took my time and it went fine again so am feeling a bit more confident again now. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Hi Gill! I know exactly how you feel - just started on the insulin with Maddie a couple of weeks ago. It's really hard at first, trying to get into a routine and worrying about hurting your kitty when he's already unwell, but this site has a lot of great resources. There's a great video in one of the guides, about training your cat not to mind injections, which I'm going to try out tonight!

If it helps, I've found that Maddie seems quite sensitive around her shoulder blades, so the areas suggested by the vet weren't working for us. When I tried moving the non-scruff injection sites further back, like equivalent to the small of the back on a human and a couple of inches either side of her spine, she objected less. I also fill the syringe about half an hour before her injection, put the cap back on and leave it in a safe place to warm up a bit, because I wasn't sure if it was the cold temperature of a needle dipped into chilly insulin, or the sting of the Lantus, which is quite acidic - she's on ProZinc now, though, so we'll see if I need to continue with that.

Hi Gill! I know exactly how you feel - just started on the insulin with Maddie a couple of weeks ago. It's really hard at first, trying to get into a routine and worrying about hurting your kitty when he's already unwell, but this site has a lot of great resources. There's a great video in one of the guides, about training your cat not to mind injections, which I'm going to try out tonight!

If it helps, I've found that Maddie seems quite sensitive around her shoulder blades, so the areas suggested by the vet weren't working for us. When I tried moving the non-scruff injection sites further back, like equivalent to the small of the back on a human and a couple of inches either side of her spine, she objected less. I also fill the syringe about half an hour before her injection, put the cap back on and leave it in a safe place to warm up a bit, because I wasn't sure if it was the cold temperature of a needle dipped into chilly insulin, or the sting of the Lantus, which is quite acidic - she's on ProZinc now, though, so we'll see if I need to continue with that.

Hi thanks for the tips. There are some good ideas in that video - looks like I am already doing the conditioning part by accident as Mac gets a bowl of food to distract him with a few neck rubs followed by the jab then lots more fusses trying to associate nice things with the experience ! Room temp dose is a tip I may definitely try though. This morning's jab went back to being good so I'm going to stick with various sites around the scruff and not try his hip again !

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

...tonight I went back to the scruff but he was not as distracted by his food, moved at just the wrong time and the needle went a bit too far so some (maybe all) of the insulin ended up on the fur on the other side -

Hi Gill (waving from Surrey!), we call that a 'fur shot', and most of us have done exactly that at some time or other. Even people who've been giving insulin shots for years can still do this, so please don't worry. In the scheme of things it's only one insulin cycle..

As to where on the body to give the insulin shots, most people do actually just give the shots in the scruff, but vary - even by just a little bit - the exact spot where they give the shot.
Some people report that they get do better absorption - or faster absorption - from the insulin shots if they are given somewhere else, such as closer to the abdomen. But some cats don't tolerate anywhere else but the scruff...

I totally understand how it can knock one's confidence when an insulin shot (or even a few insulin shots) go a bit awry. This happened to me quite a lot in the early days. And I really can recall how that felt... I can actually remember feeling a bit sick (maybe even very sick if I'm honest) and truly dreaded having to give that next insulin shot... I was scared of hurting my cat, and also worried that he would become scared of me, or even not like or trust me any more. ...But, these are just 'teething problems'. Honestly. We do get the hang of it. And our cats are remarkably forgiving. ...In fact, in very many cases the bond between human and sugar-cat becomes very strong indeed, and a really close relationship can develop.

It's very early days for you, so please do be kind to yourself. And we are here to support you in any way that we can.

Eliz

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Hi Gill (waving from Surrey!), we call that a 'fur shot', and most of us have done exactly that at some time or other. Even people who've been giving insulin shots for years can still do this, so please don't worry. In the scheme of things it's only one insulin cycle..

As to where on the body to give the insulin shots, most people do actually just give the shots in the scruff, but vary - even by just a little bit - the exact spot where they give the shot.
Some people report that they get do better absorption - or faster absorption - from the insulin shots if they are given somewhere else, such as closer to the abdomen. But some cats don't tolerate anywhere else but the scruff...

I totally understand how it can knock one's confidence when an insulin shot (or even a few insulin shots) go a bit awry. This happened to me quite a lot in the early days. And I really can recall how that felt... I can actually remember feeling a bit sick (maybe even very sick if I'm honest) and truly dreaded having to give that next insulin shot... I was scared of hurting my cat, and also worried that he would become scared of me, or even not like or trust me any more. ...But, these are just 'teething problems'. Honestly. We do get the hang of it. And our cats are remarkably forgiving. ...In fact, in very many cases the bond between human and sugar-cat becomes very strong indeed, and a really close relationship can develop.

It's very early days for you, so please do be kind to yourself. And we are here to support you in any way that we can.

Eliz

Thanks Elizabeth - that was really comforting to know that we all have exactly the same fears - eg my cat is going to hate me. I found the letter from Robert's cat (I think that's right name) on my first read on Saturday and it hit home so much as to just what er were doing & feeling. All the best to you and your furbaby.

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

All the best to you and your furbaby.

Aw, that is so very kind of you, thank you. ....I'm on my second diabetic now. My first, Bertie, was diabetic for 12 and a half years (died last year aged 20) and was in remission for the last year and a half of his life. My current girl (adopted as diabetic in Feb of last year) is also in remission. But she does have other health issues and so probably won't make 'old bones'. We really appreciate your kind wishes..

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Aw, that is so very kind of you, thank you. ....I'm on my second diabetic now. My first, Bertie, was diabetic for 12 and a half years (died last year aged 20) and was in remission for the last year and a half of his life. My current girl (adopted as diabetic in Feb of last year) is also in remission. But she does have other health issues and so probably won't make 'old bones'. We really appreciate your kind wishes..

Hi @Elizabeth and Bertie
I was just looking through the UK food info that you kindly sent me above a couple of weeks ago. I am not rushing to change Mac's food whilst we are still in early insulin days as I've read on here about it skewing BG. The vet is happy for us to stay as we are and is not pushing for special vets diabetic food unlike some.
What I did want to just check out was that the food he is on is not too horrendous.
His exact food is Whiskas 7+ years
Pouches in jelly (fish) - I think from the list that it is not too bad - 2.9% calories from carbs and 8% protein and 72.6 cals per pouch? But have I read those columns right & is that a reasonably OK food ? He has 3 pouches.
He does have 1 pouch a day of the +7 years meat in gravy but there is no info for that - I think gravy food is generally not so good but it is only 1 pouch but he loves it and we are trying to get him to gain weight.
The dried food dates from his urinary crystals years ago and he has been on it ever since (all 3 cats nibble that if hungry between wet food). Vet has said no need to keep to that as our dried food (wish we'd known that years ago as its flipping expensive) it appears to be 34% protein but also 33.7% carbs. Mac eats only bit of it. we may try to find a better dried food as our second girl kitty eats only that although its not ideal. But what I want to avoid is changing to another better one & finding Mac likes it and so eats lots more dried than now.
Sorry for the 2 questions re the whiskas but just want to confirm what I think is right. I started a separate thread for my totally different question this morning but this one seemed to fit well in this thread.
Thanks Elizabeth and anyone who replies
Gill

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

But have I read those columns right & is that a reasonably OK food ?

Hi Gill, if a food has made it into the list then it 'should' certainly be below 10% cals from carbs. Hopefully....

Whiskas food data is a bit puzzling, because there is often different data listed on their website (and sometimes obviously faulty). And sometimes there's more than one version of data in general circulation on the product labels... But you can use the data on the food that you have in your cupboard to do a carb calculation with, and that is 'most likely' to be what is actually in the product that you have...
There's a link to an online calculator below that really easily works out the 'percentage of calories from carbs'. You just enter the percentages for protein, fat, ash, fibre, and moisture in the relevant boxes and click 'calculate'. The 'percentage of cals from carbs' will be shown in the turquoise box, bottom right. ....If you don't want to do that (some people just don't like numbers at all..) then I'm happy to do that for you, just let me know.
https://secure.balanceit.com/tools/_gaconverter/index.php?

72.6% cals isn't very high in calories (maybe the food has a high water content, or is low in fat..?) But if he's happy to just eat more of that food then that's fine. If a kitty isn't managing to get sufficient calories then sometimes people also use more calorie dense foods such as the Gourmet Gold pates to help a kitty to gain weight. Many kitties find them palatable, but not all kitties like pate foods. The Nature's Menu 'kitten' food has, I think, been used for similar purpose and has a bit more texture to it. And there are a fair number of new foods on the market now that seem to be higher calorie; but I just haven't tested them on my lot yet, haha! (I 'experiment' on my cats in the interests of cat food research.... They don't mind.... )

Regarding the urinary crystals... The 'urinary' diets usually only acidify the diet, which helps to prevent struvite crystals forming. But acidifying the diet can actually create the conditions that cause oxalate stones to develop (and now oxalate stones are becoming more common than struvite...) ....Dry diets also exacerbate the problem with crystals/stones, precisely because they are water-depleted. And cats with crystal/stone issues benefit from lots of water in their diet. Dr Lisa Pierson (of 'catinfo') has said that "the solution to polution is dilution". And many people report that their kitties no longer have problems with crystals once they are on a wet diet. You can also routinely add a little extra water to the wet food (I always do this with my own girl).

My current girl, Bonbon, was a dry food addict when she came here. I switched her to a lower carb dry at first (Thrive 'premium plus' chicken & turkey). And then reduced the amount of that until she was only eating wet food. Not sure if that would work for Mac...? ....It is important to be testing blood glucose regularly though when removing/reducing dry food. Bonbon's insulin requirement dropped by half (from 4 units to 2) when on a lower carb diet. (She subsequently went into remission).

Eliz

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Thanks for your reply and the information Elizabeth.

.If you don't want to do that (some people just don't like numbers at all..) then I'm happy to do that for you, just let me know.

Thanks for the kind offer but I love numbers. Probably 90%+ of my every working day is spent on excel on data work - so new calculator - yippee! That calculator is great & I've made sure to bookmark it. You were right about Whiskas - the website is slightly different to on the box.
But I do still need your advice on the inputs please Elizabeth because what is happening is that I am getting a vastly different carb % to on the UK spreadsheet (10.17% as opposed to 2.9% on the spreadsheet) - it may be that I am misinterpreting the analytical ingredients as I've not really looked at these before- these are listed on the box as:
protein=8.5% fat=4.5% inorganic matters=1.8% crude fibre=0.3% no mention of ash.
I completed the fibre box with the crude fibre % (0.3%) which gives the 10.17% carbs result. but should I instead have used the inorganic matters so 1.8%? or even both added together so 2.1%? If I use 1.8% the result is 3.48% carbs & if I use 2.1% the result is 2.02% carbs. So not sure what is right input wise.

WRT the urinary food, yesterday I read on Royal Canin's own website that they recommend it is used for 4-12 weeks until the crystals are gone and then for another 6 months as a precaution then after that just swap to RC normal calorie control food or, if no longer overweight, RC neutered cat food (you note they still push their food !) no-one ever told us that - we were told by vets at the time that he would need to keep him on it for life to stop a reoccurrence! unless they have changed their guidance over the very many years since he started on it. Though we have mentioned at most annual check ups that he is on it and nothing was ever said.

I looked into the Thrive Premium Plus chicken and it looks as good as alternative dry food as I can get. I was surprised to see that it is even more expensive than the RC urinary as I thought that had to be the most expensive out there. Not that the cost matters if it a better option for all 3 kitties. Mac only eats small amount of the dried (about half a cup max) he much prefers the wet and so just occasionally has a bit of the dried if he has given up on conning more wet out of us. What I am slightly worried about is that he may really like the Thrive and eat more of that instead of his wet - we will have to remove it at that point. Also don't want to mess up his BG v insulin by taking the high carb food anyway.
Mac's sister eats more dried food then he does probably 75 /25 wet to dry. Their adopted sister Zebbi (a stray who moved in years ago) eats mainly dried and rarely turns up at meal times to get wet food. So it is mainly for her (and Lady's) sake that I am thinking of making the change as I don't want to set them up for future issues.

Mac's weight: 6 July 2019 when he had his boosters he weighed 15.12 lb which was his normal (they said he needed to lose a bit). 7 July 2020 he was down to 12lb and looking scrawny. on 15th August 2020, the day he started insulin, he had lost more, down to 11.42lb. Since being on insulin he has gained weight again and at 5th September and yesterday he was 12lb. The vet has said he ideally does not want him to exceed 6kg (13.22 lb), so we do have a little more room for him to gain a bit more. He seems a bit thin to me still but that maybe because I am used to him being a big cat. It's tricky to know what to do for the best - try to feed him up a bit more or stay as we are.

there are a fair number of new foods on the market now that seem to be higher calorie; but I just haven't tested them on my lot yet, haha! (I 'experiment' on my cats in the interests of cat food research.... They don't mind.... )

I bet that they don't - guinea cats for food testing - sounds like a job most would fight for !

Thanks in advance for your help !
Gill & Mac (who has both front paws in the air to volunteer to be a food tester)

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Hi @Elizabeth and Bertie
Just realised that I did not tag you when I replied with a couple of questions above about where to put what ingredient. I'm not sure if the magic of the board tells you automatically that I replied or not so I may have made a boo boo in not including your tag as others seem to so doing it now.
Numbers & excel I may be good with - social media or message boards - nope ! No Twitter or Facebook wizard here !
Hope you are enjoying the heat today and again tomorrow although @jt and trouble (GA) would probably claim she would need winter woolies today at a mere 25 degrees !
Lol Gill

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

LO, A mere 105 here today piece of cake!

Cake? did someone say cake???

drats! that was me

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

But I do still need your advice on the inputs please Elizabeth because what is happening is that I am getting a vastly different carb % to on the UK spreadsheet (10.17% as opposed to 2.9% on the spreadsheet) - it may be that I am misinterpreting the analytical ingredients as I've not really looked at these before- these are listed on the box as:
protein=8.5% fat=4.5% inorganic matters=1.8% crude fibre=0.3% no mention of ash.
I completed the fibre box with the crude fibre % (0.3%) which gives the 10.17% carbs result. but should I instead have used the inorganic matters so 1.8%? or even both added together so 2.1%? If I use 1.8% the result is 3.48% carbs & if I use 2.1% the result is 2.02% carbs. So not sure what is right input wise.

Gill, that made my brain hurt, haha!

Yes, 'ash' can be called 'inorganic matter' as well now.
It may also be that the recipe has changed and the data on the food list needs updating too. ...Can you tell me exactly which food this is, and give me the data for that? And if it's a mixed pack, is it the same data for all the flavours..?

Eliz

 

[Gill & Mac (UK)]

Gill, that made my brain hurt, haha!

Yes, 'ash' can be called 'inorganic matter' as well now.

Eliz

Hi Eliz
Yes it is a mixed box but gives the same analytical %s for all. So if I enter the fibre as 0.3% then put the 1.8% inorganic matter in the ash box then I get a result of 2.02% carb (if I am right) - I was surprised the carbs were so low - I thought it would be a less than ideal food but at 2% carbs and 8.5% protein - that looks quite good -I think ?, I was also surprised that the gravy one (again I am right) only worked out at 5.3% carbs with 7.5% protein as I thought being gravy it would be "bad".
But if I want to find a higher calorie catfood to help him put a bit more weight on but keep the carbs around the same then that should not affect his BG I believe ?

Can you tell me exactly which food this is, and give me the data for that?

I'm going to try uploading a photo of the box name and also of the ingredients which hopefully you can then expand. If that doesn't load I'll try something else. This is for the jelly one - if you want the gravy one too just let me know.

I've included a bonus picture of Mac's adopted sister using his head as a footrest this morning - just cos it makes me smile !

Gill

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Awwww smooshable