New Member, spreadsheet review/ Starting dose/ Freeze Dried/ CBD

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Jack & Jamie

Jack & Jamie

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Admin, Thank you for all you do! Your abundance of work and resources has been so incredibly helpful with this new venture.
This is all new to me, so please advise if I should do be doing something differently! Could you please review Jack's spreadsheet, to ensure I'm completing it correctly and advise of any changes I should make?

I am Jamie, my beloved kitty is a 13yo long hair, gray, maine coon (we think) named Jack. AKA Jacky Joe. When I separated from my ex 3 years ago, I brought our golden retriever, Charlie, he kept our cat, Jack. I told him if he ever couldn't keep Jack, I would gladly take him. This November, he reached out and asked if I wanted Jack. He wasn't home often and didn't think it was fair to this social and loving kitty with a big personality, to be alone often. I gladly took him home on Nov. 29 and he has adjusted really well with my 2 dogs and in his new home, although I am sure it has been stressful for him. On Dec 5, I brought him to the vet for a thorough exam. He had not been to a vet since I last brought him almost 4 years ago. His bloodwork indicated high liver enzymes (x-rays looked good), diabetes and high cholesterol. He also has a couple teeth that should be examined further and possibly removed. Despite his health issues, the first week Jack was with me, he slept by me every night and purred the entire time. He definitely remembered me. He is so happy to have people and pets with him all day, every day. Unfortunately, our beloved Charlie passed in May this year, after a long journey with Cancer. I can't help but think that Charlie knew his little kitty brother needed me, and I am so grateful to have him back in my life. Every day is a blessing and I am honored to care for him during this time.

A few questions and concerns that I would appreciate your input:
1.) Jack was diagnosed on the 9th, he got a Freestyle Libre on the 17th. The vet started him on 1IU, 2x daily of Lantus. His numbers have been significantly high at times, so I asked the vet if we should increase his dose. She would like to wait until the Libre expires on the 30th, and review the data and curve, before increasing. She wants his body to get used to the insulin and she is concerned of hypoglycemia. I on the other hand am concerned of hyperglycemia. I work from home, so I can be monitoring him closely throughout the day. He acts normal, he does sleep, drink and pee a lot more when the numbers are over 500. This morning at his AMPS, ReliOn read HI (over 600) but he still came to me purring when I woke up, ate his breakfast and gave the dogs some love. What should I do, stick to his recommended dose or talk to the vet again about increasing? You will see on his spreadsheet, I have tweaked it on occasion when it is really high, is that ok?

2.) Do you have an opinion on Freeze Dried Raw? Jack was eating kibble. When diagnosed, I immediately started with Fancy Feast Classics and slowly transitioned him to Smallbatch Freeze Dried, Turkey. He loves it, it is 98% meat, organ meat and bone, 1% produce and 1% natural supplements. So it basically has very little to no carbs. It's organic and quality meat from a company I trust. But I honestly thought his numbers would drop considering he has basically no carbs in his diet.

3.) Do you have an opinion on full spectrum CBD? Jack is 13 and has arthritis in his spine and hip dysplasia (we plan to treat once we balance his sugar) I started giving him a very small amount of CBD for pain, to reduce anxiety from the needles and it also helps with reducing inflammation, which is helpful for his organs that may be impacted. The brand I purchase is from CBD Dog Health and they have spoke highly and have done research on the benefits of CBD for diabetic pets.

Thank you in advance, I am so grateful for your guidance and support.
 
Welcome to FDMB! (I moved your post to this forum vs the Spreadsheet/Tech help page.)

I'm glad Jack is home with you. He certainly needed to see a vet to get his diabetes under control.

Lantus is a very good insulin for treating feline diabetes. However, it is different than the "typical" insulin most people are familiar with. One of the differences is that when starting Lantus, it takes 5 - 7 days for it to build up in your cat's system. It's also not the kind of insulin where you can make back-to-back changes in dose. This is due to Lantus being a depot type of medication. Every time you give a shot, the insulin forms microcrystals that are deposited in the fat tissue. Most of those crystals dissolve over the course of the 12-hour cycle. Not all of them completely dissolve, though and as a result, there is overlap between the previous cycle and the next shot. This give Lantus a longer duration than most other insulins and contributes to it's cumulative effect. There are sticky notes at the top of the Lantus forum that describe how Lantus works, the dosing methods we use, and a great deal of other information. I'd encourage you to take a look at those posts.

Another difference with Lantus is that it likes consistency. You should be giving the same dose at each shot time unless a change in dose is indicated. The sticky note on dosing methods will be helpful with regard to when to adjust a dose. Since this is an insulin that relies on consistency, trying to "shoot down" a high number isn't really effective. Those kinds of changes to the dose will ultimately get you wonky numbers because you're making frequent changes that affect the depot.

The other thing you are likely seeing is some "bouncing." Jack may not be used to lower numbers since none of us really know how long our cat has been diabetic. When he drops into yellow numbers like last night, he then zoomed into high numbers. The lower numbers triggered Jack's liver and pancreas to release a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones that cause a spike in blood glucose numbers. It can take several days for a bounce to clear.

Raw food, freeze dried or otherwise, is fine! I would, however, suggest that you do a search for a cat food carbohydrate calculator if the food doesn't have the carbohydrate amounts included in their information. Most foods do not list this information. If the food contains "produce," any form of vegetable or fruit are carbs. You want to be sure the food is under 10% carb. As an FYI, most members feed their cats in the 5% carb range. Also, with a freeze dried food, make sure Jack is getting lots of water. Freeze dried foods are low in moisture content. Diabetes can be very hard on a cat's kidneys. I would encourage you to add water to his food to ensure he's hydrated.

I've never used CBD with my cats. There may be others stopping by who can offer more input.

One last thing. We ask members to put information in their signature so we don't pester you by asking the same questions repeatedly. This post on helping us to help you has information about what to include in your signature.
 
Freezed dried raw food is fine :) My diabetic cats eat the Vital Essentials brand in rabbit. It doesn't contain fillers like fruit and veggies or junk. All freeze dried raw food needs to be rehydrated before serving. If you buy a brand that is patty-shaped, you'll want to break apart the patty into small pieces / powder and then add water. Otherwise it'll take forever to rehydrate. Mix until rehydrated, adding more water if it seems dry. You want something the consistency of pate canned food. Sometimes I add a little too much water and it's soupy which is fine. More water is always good for cats :) It takes a few minutes to rehydrate. If you have time, let it sit for 10 minutes or so and occasionally mix to ensure the food gets rehydrated. Brands that are more kibble-shaped could benefit from being broken apart into smaller pieces for easier rehydrating.

As an occasional treat, freeze dried raw can be fed dry but for a meal you definitely want to rehydrated first.

It make take a couple of days to see if the new low carb diet is helping. Keep a close eye on blood glucose numbers. Some cats just don't respond to a lower carb diet so you just need to adjust the insulin as needed.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Welcome to FDMB! (I moved your post to this forum vs the Spreadsheet/Tech help page.)

I'm glad Jack is home with you. He certainly needed to see a vet to get his diabetes under control.

Lantus is a very good insulin for treating feline diabetes. However, it is different than the "typical" insulin most people are familiar with. One of the differences is that when starting Lantus, it takes 5 - 7 days for it to build up in your cat's system. It's also not the kind of insulin where you can make back-to-back changes in dose. This is due to Lantus being a depot type of medication. Every time you give a shot, the insulin forms microcrystals that are deposited in the fat tissue. Most of those crystals dissolve over the course of the 12-hour cycle. Not all of them completely dissolve, though and as a result, there is overlap between the previous cycle and the next shot. This give Lantus a longer duration than most other insulins and contributes to it's cumulative effect. There are sticky notes at the top of the Lantus forum that describe how Lantus works, the dosing methods we use, and a great deal of other information. I'd encourage you to take a look at those posts.

Another difference with Lantus is that it likes consistency. You should be giving the same dose at each shot time unless a change in dose is indicated. The sticky note on dosing methods will be helpful with regard to when to adjust a dose. Since this is an insulin that relies on consistency, trying to "shoot down" a high number isn't really effective. Those kinds of changes to the dose will ultimately get you wonky numbers because you're making frequent changes that affect the depot.

The other thing you are likely seeing is some "bouncing." Jack may not be used to lower numbers since none of us really know how long our cat has been diabetic. When he drops into yellow numbers like last night, he then zoomed into high numbers. The lower numbers triggered Jack's liver and pancreas to release a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones that cause a spike in blood glucose numbers. It can take several days for a bounce to clear.

Raw food, freeze dried or otherwise, is fine! I would, however, suggest that you do a search for a cat food carbohydrate calculator if the food doesn't have the carbohydrate amounts included in their information. Most foods do not list this information. If the food contains "produce," any form of vegetable or fruit are carbs. You want to be sure the food is under 10% carb. As an FYI, most members feed their cats in the 5% carb range. Also, with a freeze dried food, make sure Jack is getting lots of water. Freeze dried foods are low in moisture content. Diabetes can be very hard on a cat's kidneys. I would encourage you to add water to his food to ensure he's hydrated.

I've never used CBD with my cats. There may be others stopping by who can offer more input.

One last thing. We ask members to put information in their signature so we don't pester you by asking the same questions repeatedly. This post on helping us to help you has information about what to include in your signature.
Click to expand...

I can't thank you enough for this explanation. Now that I know the science of how it works, it makes perfect sense and I just need to be patient. Huge weight off my shoulders! I will read more about Lantus, the information on this site has been so helpful. It's a lot to learn as a newbie, but we'll get there one day at a time. Thankfully, I worked with a nutritionist for my dog when he had cancer and she taught me so much about natural remedies, diets and supplements that support different organs in the body. It will be knowledge that will help all my pets now and in the future.

I ran his food through the calculator and it came up with -3.99. I had previously contacted them about the full nutrition facts, main concern being carbs, and they said there is so little carbs in the food that they can't get an accurate reading to list it, it is basically none, or less than 1%. I've looked at the produce and supplements that they include in the food and it is very low carb options such as dandelion greens, kelp, cranberry and barley grass. Cranberry will have some sugar, but also good for the urinary tract health, liver support and the immune system. It also has sardine oil, coconut oil and apple cider vinegar, great for regulating diabetes. They recommend you add a 1/4 cup water for every 1/2 cup of food to rehydrate, I add just a little bit more without making it too soupy. (he is picky about texture) I also discovered this morning that he LOVES dehydrated organ meats, which I buy for the dogs as treats. I'm excited that he is loving these options, I was worried he was a kibble king.

I will update my signature with details as requested and again, thank you so much for the response and thorough explanation. I wish my vet had done that so that I knew WHY we shouldn't increase.

Wishing you a very Merry Christmas to you and yours!
 
squeem3 said:
Freezed dried raw food is fine :) My diabetic cats eat the Vital Essentials brand in rabbit. It doesn't contain fillers like fruit and veggies or junk. All freeze dried raw food needs to be rehydrated before serving. If you buy a brand that is patty-shaped, you'll want to break apart the patty into small pieces / powder and then add water. Otherwise it'll take forever to rehydrate. Mix until rehydrated, adding more water if it seems dry. You want something the consistency of pate canned food. Sometimes I add a little too much water and it's soupy which is fine. More water is always good for cats :) It takes a few minutes to rehydrate. If you have time, let it sit for 10 minutes or so and occasionally mix to ensure the food gets rehydrated. Brands that are more kibble-shaped could benefit from being broken apart into smaller pieces for easier rehydrating.

As an occasional treat, freeze dried raw can be fed dry but for a meal you definitely want to rehydrated first.

It make take a couple of days to see if the new low carb diet is helping. Keep a close eye on blood glucose numbers. Some cats just don't respond to a lower carb diet so you just need to adjust the insulin as needed.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the feedback and recommendations! I'm anxious to try different proteins with him. Right now, I'm just sticking to the Turkey batch, because I know he loves it and I want to stay consistent until we get his numbers regulated a bit. He hasn't really responded to the low carb food yet, but he is 13 and ate mostly kibble his entire life. I'm sure his body is detoxing and will take some time, in addition to being new to insulin. I can't see how his body wouldn't heal and respond to the positive change in his diet and so much less glucose, but we shall see!

The company recommends a 1/4 cup of water for every 1/2 cup of food. I add a little more without it being too soupy as he is picky about texture. I usually pour the water in and let it sit while I prepare the dog's dishes of raw food, then do his AMPS. By that time it is pretty well hydrated :) He also loves freeze dried organ meats! I was giving the dogs some beef spleen this morning and he was all about it! I gave him a little piece and he came back for more.

Thanks again for the feedback, I hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas!
 
Jamie --

I'm not sure if when you're posting, if you are clicking on the "Report" link. You don't need to do that. If you do, your post goes into a folder for the Moderators to review and approve. If you're not doing this, I have no clue why your post ended up as being reported.
 
My diabetic cat also has IBD and food allergies, among other health issues, so that's why I can only feed him rabbit. You can try other proteins for your cat later on :) Some cats like to have a rotation of different proteins. Freeze dried treats are great for diabetics, both the meat ones and the ones that are various organs.

Air dried raw may be another option you can feed later or as a treat. It's crunchy like kibble. Ziwi Peak is one brand. It's kind of expensive for a small bag, though.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Jamie --

I'm not sure if when you're posting, if you are clicking on the "Report" link. You don't need to do that. If you do, your post goes into a folder for the Moderators to review and approve. If you're not doing this, I have no clue why your post ended up as being reported.
Click to expand...
No, I did not click the report option. Not sure why it went there!
 
squeem3 said:
My diabetic cat also has IBD and food allergies, among other health issues, so that's why I can only feed him rabbit. You can try other proteins for your cat later on :) Some cats like to have a rotation of different proteins. Freeze dried treats are great for diabetics, both the meat ones and the ones that are various organs.

Air dried raw may be another option you can feed later or as a treat. It's crunchy like kibble. Ziwi Peak is one brand. It's kind of expensive for a small bag, though.
Click to expand...

Oh that makes sense. Do you need to give probiotics? Yes, I buy all kinds of organ options from Vital Essentials for the dogs. I don't see why Jack could have little bites of that down the road. Organ meat is full of nutrients and goodness! I did see the Ziwi Peak option at our pet store, we'll keep that in mind as a treat option. Thank you!
 
Many people give their IBD cats probiotics and other supplements but I do not. I have tried them in the past but they just didn't make any difference for my cat.
 
Awe, I'm sorry to hear they didn't help. My late golden retriever had severe GI issues after cancer treatments and he was so sensitive to fat. He could only eat meat that was 99% lean. I spent months trying different supplements/probiotics and finally did a fecal test to determine what his gut needed. Turned out he had leaky gut, but he also had lots of different strains of gut bacteria that was depleted. We used adored beast products for awhile, alternating them for the different bacteria and it really helped. Did you know they also have fecal transplant supplements? It is good bacteria from a healthy animal, that you give to yours. I've never tried it, but it sounds remarkable! Wishing your kitty all the best!
 
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