New member (Rodrigo)

R

Rodrigo

Member
Hello!

My name is Rodrigo and my little one is called Trancas.

He is a Maine Coon of 16 years not sterilized, diagnosed with diabetes 2 weeks ago, but he is not responding at all at Prozinc treatment.

We are very worried because he is getting really worse really fast.

I have written a new thread in the PROZINC subject....hopefully we will get some usefull knowledge from you.

Thanks a lot and have a good day.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.
I have read your post on the Prozinc forum. @Suzanne & Darcy will be along in several hours but at the moment it is the middle of the night for her.
What you can do in the meantime to help us help you is to set up a spreadsheet and a signature with information about your kitty.
Here is the link to doing those things.HELP US HELP YOU
Can you answer some questions for us please?
  • Can you tell us how long your kitty has had diabetes?
  • What food are you feeding him?
  • Are you hometesting the blood glucose?
  • What type of glucose meter are you using?
  • Why are you having him tested for Cushings?
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Hi and welcome to the forum.
I have read your post on the Prozinc forum. @Suzanne & Darcy will be along in several hours but at the moment it is the middle of the night for her.
What you can do in the meantime to help us help you is to set up a spreadsheet and a signature with information about your kitty.
Here is the link to doing those things.HELP US HELP YOU
Can you answer some questions for us please?
  • Can you tell us how long your kitty has had diabetes?
  • What food are you feeding him?
  • Are you hometesting the blood glucose?
  • What type of glucose meter are you using?
  • Why are you having him tested for Cushings?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your fast reply.
Answering your questions:

- He had diabetes (confirmed at least) since 3 weeks ago

-Food is 100% cosma wet food

-I m not hometesting, but the cat spend two different whole days in the vet being tested and he always showed sugar levels of 500-600 despite the Prozinc dose was rised from 1ui each 12h to 2ui.

-he is being tested for Cushings because my vet doesn't know why my cat is NOT RESPONDING AT ALL TO PROZINC, and she says that cushings, although quite rare, .ay be an option (pancreas was perfect in the eco).

Again:

Thanks a lot for your interest in helping others.

Rodrigo
 
Where do you live? Which country?
I would recommend you think about hometesting. That is the only way to tell what the blood glucose is really doing.
The 2 days you took him to the vet he could have been bouncing into high numbers.
It is also possible you just have not reached the best dose yet.
Two weeks is not enough time to allow your cat to get used to insulin which is a hormone. You need to give it a lot more time.
We have a saying here…it is not a race, it is a marathon.
Most cats take a lot longer than 2 weeks to respond to insulin.

Information on hometesting
 
Rodrigo said:
-I m not hometesting, but the cat spend two different whole days in the vet being tested and he always showed sugar levels of 500-600 despite the Prozinc dose was rised from 1ui each 12h to 2ui.
Click to expand...
If I am understanding you correctly, you are not home testing his blood glucose but for two days at the vet he was very high in his numbers. We cannot really tell even from two days testing at the vet because he could have had a lower number that then caused his body to go into what we call a bounce, where the cat’s blood glucose will go high for as long as three days. If this happened to occur while he was at the vet (and also cats’ blood glucose levels tend to be higher at the vet because of stress) then the vet would not catch the lower numbers. I am not saying it’s impossible that your cat doesn’t have a condition that will make him insulin resistant— because it is possible, but we cannot know that from two days of testing at the vet. Is there any way you can begin to try testing his blood glucose levels at home. Can you get the vet to put a Libre continuous glucose monitor on him and you collect the data from that monitor while you learn how to test him at home?

How many units of insulin is he currently receiving? Did you say 2 units now?

For the diabetic neuropathy that appears to be affecting his back legs, please get a product called Zobaline and start it right away. It is a particular form of vitamin B-12 and some folate that is formulated to help cats with diabetic neuropathy and it works very well. If you cannot obtain Zobaline, please start him on methylcobalamin right away (3 mg per day.)
 
Thanks a lot for your reply.

I'm from Spain.

I know that it takes a lot longer than 2 weeks, but due to the pace of worsening of my cat I dont know if we have a lot more time.

And, related to the bouncing between high numbers...theoreticaly my vet did the 24h curve in the clinic and this was not the case.

Again, thanks a lot anyway for you valuavle info!
 
Is the cosma wet food a low carb cat food? Do you know how many carbs are in the food?

There are other conditions that can cause a cat to be resistant to insulin, such as what my own cat had which is acromegaly, but your cat is only on a small dose of insulin right now (2 units) and it is possible that he just hasn’t reached a good dose yet (and also we cannot tell what we need to know from only two days of testing, as I said previously.)
 
Rodrigo said:
And, related to the bouncing between high numbers...theoreticaly my vet did the 24h curve in the clinic and this was not the case.
Click to expand...
Bounces can last for up to 3 days where you will see nothing but high numbers for 3 days so a 24 hour curve done in the midst of a bounce will show nothing but high numbers.)
 
Is he still eating well? Very hungry? Any vomiting or lethargy? I realize that he is having trouble walking and that is why I urged you to start the methylcobalamin right away.

Has the vet tested for ketones? With Trancas in such very high numbers, it will be very important for you to test for ketones at home. This can be done with the urine test strips or with a blood ketone meter where you test blood from the ear just like when you do a blood glucose test except with a special meter with special test strips that are for testing ketones. Your poor Trancas doesn’t need to also have a diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) on top of everything else going on.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
If I am understanding you correctly, you are not home testing his blood glucose but for two days at the vet he was very high in his numbers. We cannot really tell even from two days testing at the vet because he could have had a lower number that then caused his body to go into what we call a bounce, where the cat’s blood glucose will go high for as long as three days. If this happened to occur while he was at the vet (and also cats’ blood glucose levels tend to be higher at the vet because of stress) then the vet would not catch the lower numbers. I am not saying it’s impossible that your cat doesn’t have a condition that will make him insulin resistant— because it is possible, but we cannot know that from two days of testing at the vet. Is there any way you can begin to try testing his blood glucose levels at home. Can you get the vet to put a Libre continuous glucose monitor on him and you collect the data from that monitor while you learn how to test him at home?

How many units of insulin is he currently receiving? Did you say 2 units now?

For the diabetic neuropathy that appears to be affecting his back legs, please get a product called Zobaline and start it right away. It is a particular form of vitamin B-12 and some folate that is formulated to help cats with diabetic neuropathy and it works very well. If you cannot obtain Zobaline, please start him on methylcobalamin right away (3 mg per day.)
Click to expand...


Copy all.

Seems quite hard to get Zobaline via online in Spain. Methylcobalamin is easier.

I will try, but...bottomline:

Is it normal that a cat that has been using Prozinc for 2 weeks gives very high numbers (much more than the typical increase for Vet-stress) during 48 consecutive hours?

Thanks!
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Is he still eating well? Very hungry? Any vomiting or lethargy? I realize that he is having trouble walking and that is why I urged you to start the methylcobalamin right away.

Has the vet tested for ketones? With Trancas in such very high numbers, it will be very important for you to test for ketones at home. This can be done with the urine test strips or with a blood ketone meter where you test blood from the ear just like when you do a blood glucose test except with a special meter with special test strips that are for testing ketones. Your poor Trancas doesn’t need to also have a diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) on top of everything else going on.
Click to expand...

No ketones in the last test (yesterday).

I ll buy methylcobalamin right now.
 
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
A lot of people do place the Libre sensors themselves. Many of our members here do. There is a Facebook group for this as well. I will tag one member who I know has a lot of experience with the Libre. There are quite a few others. @Staci & Ivy
Click to expand...

Hi Rodrigo! Welcome!

I’ve been using a Libre 3 on my cat, Ivy for about 2 years and I’m very comfortable using them.
My cat doesn’t tolerate constant ear pricks, she gets very angry and will bite and scratch me.

She tolerates me applying the Libre sensor every 2 weeks (or less if it fails or there’s a problem).

I also test with a handheld meter when she hits “LO” readings on the Libre most especially.
FYI,
There can be a discrepancy between when you see “LO” readings on the Libre and what the handheld glucometer reads.

I use a Contour Next human meter, but it could be any handheld human meter or a pet meter.
I install the sensors myself and I keep several on hand at all times because they can fail or be pulled off at any time by the cat. I don’t want to have to wait to have someone else put it on or be without data, or have to take Ivy to a vet for that to be done. (It’s one more stressor for you and your cat, plus additional costs).

You will need to get a prescription from your vet for the sensors. **However, I’m not sure if that applies in Spain you may not need the prescription but you’d have to find that out.

It’s truly not that hard to put on. You just have to follow the directions very carefully. Once you’ve done it one or two times you will be very comfortable doing it.
I keep a “tube top” on Ivy, (previously had a T-shirt on her. She just didn’t like the T-shirt). But most cats tolerate a tee shirt quite well.
Your kitty may get used to wearing a Libre (and then you may not have to use a T-shirt, but then again you might always have to keep one on if he likes to pull the Libre off.)

For a Libre 3, I got Ivy her own phone that stays with her at home and I can monitor her 24/7, the data is sent directly to my own phone through the Libre Linkup App).
The phone does not require any active service so you are not paying for an additional phone line. The phone operates on Bluetooth and uses Wi-Fi to send the data to your phone so that you can monitor your cat’s sensor information at all times.
You can use an older phone model if you have one or could purchase one used.
On the Abbott website there are lists of compatible, androids, or iPhones.

***I strongly recommend learning about how to use a Libre from the Facebook group:
“Freestyle Libre for Dogs and Cats”
They have somuch valuable information, guide guides, tutorials videos, and everything you will need to learn about using a Freestyle Libre sensor and what supplies to use.

A vet’s office tends to use glue to install them, it is highly recommended not to use any glue.
The glue can flood and kill the sensor and it’s terrible on their fragile skin.

I hope this helps. Please ask questions if you have them.
:cat::cat:
 
It says UK but realistically most of it is European manufactured and available to us throughout Europe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...l9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/edit?usp=drivesdk
Most feed 6% carbs and under

I'll try tagging a few members from Spain and see if they can give you some information about using a human meter or anything else if you have any questions

@Gill & George
@xelo y sinver


Went back and did a search about human meters and found this posted by 2 members from Spain

We use in contour Next , which is for humans the strips are cheaper on Amazon


I used the freestyle freedom lite glucometer. The pharmacy in my town gave me the meter for free (with 10 strips) when I bought 50 test strips (tiritas)


I also use SD code free glucometer I bought it in line, it requires a little more blood to get a test, but I never had a problem, and the strips worked out cheaper.
https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/codefree-blood-glucose-monitoring-system-mmoll-or-mgdl/

I see you said on your other post on the Prozinc forum that Trancas has neuropathy

You can get these and will have to give 2 per day, just sprinkle them in the wet food and add water . Since you have to give 2 you can give one in the AM and one in the PM
If you keep reading these are Methylcobaline B-12

Ingredients:


Filler: microcrystalline cellulose, capsule: Hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, methylcobalamin (vitamin B12)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09K46GQ77?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

If the picture do come up just hit accept

If you want to add the folic acid like the Zobaline has you can just buy the folic acid in any supermarket or pharmacy , if you can't find 200 mcg's just get the 400 mcg's and cut them in half and crush them
 
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Staci & Ivy said:
Hi Rodrigo! Welcome!

I’ve been using a Libre 3 on my cat, Ivy for about 2 years and I’m very comfortable using them.
My cat doesn’t tolerate constant ear pricks, she gets very angry and will bite and scratch me.

She tolerates me applying the Libre sensor every 2 weeks (or less if it fails or there’s a problem).

I also test with a handheld meter when she hits “LO” readings on the Libre most especially.
FYI,
There can be a discrepancy between when you see “LO” readings on the Libre and what the handheld glucometer reads.

I use a Contour Next human meter, but it could be any handheld human meter or a pet meter.
I install the sensors myself and I keep several on hand at all times because they can fail or be pulled off at any time by the cat. I don’t want to have to wait to have someone else put it on or be without data, or have to take Ivy to a vet for that to be done. (It’s one more stressor for you and your cat, plus additional costs).

You will need to get a prescription from your vet for the sensors. **However, I’m not sure if that applies in Spain you may not need the prescription but you’d have to find that out.

It’s truly not that hard to put on. You just have to follow the directions very carefully. Once you’ve done it one or two times you will be very comfortable doing it.
I keep a “tube top” on Ivy, (previously had a T-shirt on her. She just didn’t like the T-shirt). But most cats tolerate a tee shirt quite well.
Your kitty may get used to wearing a Libre (and then you may not have to use a T-shirt, but then again you might always have to keep one on if he likes to pull the Libre off.)

For a Libre 3, I got Ivy her own phone that stays with her at home and I can monitor her 24/7, the data is sent directly to my own phone through the Libre Linkup App).
The phone does not require any active service so you are not paying for an additional phone line. The phone operates on Bluetooth and uses Wi-Fi to send the data to your phone so that you can monitor your cat’s sensor information at all times.
You can use an older phone model if you have one or could purchase one used.
On the Abbott website there are lists of compatible, androids, or iPhones.

***I strongly recommend learning about how to use a Libre from the Facebook group:
“Freestyle Libre for Dogs and Cats”
They have somuch valuable information, guide guides, tutorials videos, and everything you will need to learn about using a Freestyle Libre sensor and what supplies to use.

A vet’s office tends to use glue to install them, it is highly recommended not to use any glue.
The glue can flood and kill the sensor and it’s terrible on their fragile skin.

I hope this helps. Please ask questions if you have them.
:cat::cat:
Click to expand...
Staci, does Ivy have to be within a certain distance from the phone that you keep at home? I mean, does she have to be near it in order for it to work and if she moves too far away from the phone it would not work?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
So that contains 1500 mcg which is equivalent to 1.5 mg, which means that you would need to get two of the capsules into your cat to get the same amount as one Zobaline tablet. I don’t know what size the capsules are.
Click to expand...
Yes you would need 2 to get the same amount of Zobaline. I don't know what size the capsules are either , but I assume you just open up the capsules and empty them into the food like you would do with the vitacost brand that many members use and so did I :cat:

I found the Dr's Best brand when I did a search on our site that some members from Europe used and posted it
@Suzanne & Darcy

I found a pic of the capsules

m.jpeg
 
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Many cats do not have an immediate response to insulin. We never really know when a cat, or human for that matter, became diabetic. The initial dose may not be enough to bring blood glucose numbers into a normal range. The approach that we take is to evaluate the dose on a regular basis (e.g., every week) and increase the dose by a small amount to see both how well the dose is working as well as to make sure that we don't increase by so much that numbers drop too low. Since you've been over on the Prozinc forum, take a look at the sticky note on dosing methods.

To be honest, I'd be very surprised if Rodrigo tests positive for Cushings. I've been on this forum for a long time and very few cats have been diagnosed with Cushings. I would expect that you'd see other symptoms (like skin tearing easily) if your cat has Cushings. In addition, 2u of insulin is not a large dose. It may simply be a matter of your cat needing a larger dose of insulin.

Also, please check to make sure that what you're feeding your cat is low in carbohydrates. There are online cat food carbohydrate calculators. You plug in the numbers (protein, fat, moisture, etc) from the can into the calculator and it will tell you the percent of carbohydrates. Not all canned cat foods are low in carbohydrates. You want a food that is under 10%.
 
Hola Rodrigo!
Te saludo desde Granada, @Sienne and Gabby (GA) asked me to stop by.

If you look at Mt cats numbers you can see that he was high for quote a while, (above 400) when he was first diagnosed, it's not unusual to find that they are high until they start to get to a good dose. George was high for about 4wreks until he got to 2.75u bid (every 12hours) , It feels alarming when you are giving insulin and you don't see his glucose levels dropping, it doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong, and just because he needs a higher dose than what your vet may be used to seeing (my experience here with my vets is they don't see many diabetic cats) doesn't necessarily mean he will have a poor prognosis, I can think of a number of cats who had over 5ubid and went into remission.

Also the curves at the vets are usually not that reliable, my cats blood glucose would rise more than 200 points due to stress. I would definitely look into home testing.

The libre is convenient, but it is quote expensive here in Spain, I home tested using human glucose testing metres, much cheaper than libre and the pet meters. You don't need a pet meter to monitor his BG,
I had two meters f
  1. Freatyle freedom lite I got mine from my pharmacy, they gave it to me free when I bought a pack of 50 strips from them.
  2. Sd code free, I bought this on line, 21€ on Amazon at the moment for the kit, be the strips were very economical in comparison to the freestyle, I did a lot of home testing so for me this made financial sense.

I had no support from my vet, I find that they are not that well informed on diabetes in my town, so I relied on this site for advice and with everyone's help George went into remission and lived till he was 29, I lost him last year, still in remission till he crossed the bridge.
:rb_icon:

I am familiar with the he cosma wet food, which ones are you using? A lot of them are above 10% carbs, ideally we want below 10%, let me know which flavours/varieties you use and I'll check them out. Are you sure that they are a complete food, a lot of them are just supplementary foods, so that means he wouldn't be getting all his essential nutrients if they are his only food.

Cualquier duda,
Preguntame

The link @Bron and Sheba (GA) gave you for UK food, is ok for us to use, a lot of the products are available here in Spain, I buy online, mostly I use zooplus,
I used: wild freedom, thrive, catz, granatapet, feringa, cosma, but you have to check individual flavours as carbohydrates content can be quite different between different flavours in the same brand.

Gill
 
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
So that contains 1500 mcg which is equivalent to 1.5 mg, which means that you would need to get two of the capsules into your cat to get the same amount as one Zobaline tablet. I don’t know what size the capsules are.
Click to expand...
I’ve been using Nutricost. Available in many strengths. Right now I am using 5000mcg which is the equivalent of 5mg. Zobaline is 3 so I use 1/2 a day
Also much less expensive than Zobaline
 
Lisa and little said:
I’ve been using Nutricost. Available in many strengths. Right now I am using 5000mcg which is the equivalent of 5mg. Zobaline is 3 so I use 1/2 a day
Also much less expensive than Zobaline
Click to expand...
Zobaline also includes Folate, which can also be purchased separately. Although, I am not sure which brands are available in Spain. I think Gill is helping with that, being in Spain. I hope Little is well and happy and his neuropathy is better.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Zobaline also includes Folate, which can also be purchased separately. Although, I am not sure which brands are available in Spain. I think Gill is helping with that, being in Spain. I hope Little is well and happy and his neuropathy is better.
Click to expand...
She is. Thank you for asking. Her neuropathy has been gone for years thankfully. She was on Zobaline for 5+ years. I have had her on the nutricost for about a year and all is well. Hope all is well by you. Thank you for all you do for this board :bighug:
 
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