New Member - Need help with dosing

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Becca and Murs

Member Since 2022
I'm still trying to figure out this message board, so I apologize if I'm not doing it right.

I need help with dosing because he's just all over the place.

Murs was diagnosed with diabetes on April 6, 2022 and then had DKA on April 9, 2022. He's on Lantus and currently eats RC Glycobalance canned food. He's my first diabetic cat, and I'm very anxious about everything. I'm very experienced with many other conditions but not diabetes.

We started on 1 unit on Wednesday after he came home from the hospital. His BG has been all over the place though, and my vet said that his BG shouldn't go below 100 at least for this week.

On Friday, his BG was 75 4.5 hours after his shot. I called my vet clinic and spoke to another vet who said that when it's time for his shot:
- Above 250, give 1 unit
- Above 180, give 1/2 unit
- Below 180, skip

I was nervous Friday night, so I gave 1/2 unit even though his BG was 342 PMPS. Saturday morning (yesterday), he peed a huge amount and was begging for food, which is how he was acting before we started insulin. I didn't test him before his morning shot because I stabbed him at least 30 times and got nothing. It's been very difficult getting blood from his ear since he's come home from the hospital, but I bought 26 gauge lancets yesterday, and it's been SO much easier! I gave 1 unit yesterday morning and 1 unit last night. THEN this morning, his AMPS was 123. According to the vet I spoke with on Friday, I should skip his shot, but I wasn't comfortable with that, so I gave 1/2 unit.

What am I supposed to do? He had diabetes symptoms yesterday morning after giving 1/2 unit Friday night, but his BG seems to be getting too low on 1 unit. I don't know what to do :(

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I put his background in the About section, but I'll also copy/paste it here:

Murs (M/N, ~ 4 years). Also goes by Murkat and Murray (Murry)*

Murs was diagnosed with diabetes on April 6, 2022 and then had DKA on April 9, 2022. He's on Lantus and currently eats RC Glycobalance canned food.

Medical Conditions: Diabetes, FIV, FLUTD, FHV, and tail acne.

Supplements: lysine and floriflora for FHV, cosequin for FLUTD, omega-3 fatty acids in hopes it'll help his tail acne.

History: He was rescued from the streets end of January 2022 and had a urinary blockage February 2, 2022. I started fostering him shortly after the rescue saved him off the streets when he started having urinary issues.

* I'm still trying to figure out his name. The rescue named him Murray/Murry, but I don't like that name for him.
 
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Okay. This thread shows up. Keep this one. Once set up and ready you will be referred to LLB. Stay here for now.
I’m tagging Bron to help you with DKA. @Bron and Sheba (GA) It is a holiday so the board might be slow.

Welcome to the FDMB, the best place


No worries. This is the place to start.
Thanks so much!! I really appreciate your help!! I just tested him again 30 minutes ago, and his BG is 103. I'm very stressed and am so afraid of him being hospitalized again :(
 
Thank you for taking in a very complicated kitty. Because he was DKA it’s important not to skip shots and also for you to make sure he gets enough food, stays hydrated, and enough insulin. Are you testing for ketones either with urine test strips or a ketone meter?

Do you have karo or honey in case you need to bring up his bg quickly? You don’t need to feed RX food so get some food that is 3-9% carbs which is lc, 10-15% which is mc, and above 15% which is hc.

When you test and get a bg in green it’s important to feed a little and retest in 20-30 minutes. 78 is not in the danger zone but under 68 calls for a reduction when using pet meter regardless of the type of meter used. We use two dosing methods here so have a look and decide if you want to use one of them. Most of us use human meters because the test strips cost so much less.

I have more to say but want you to see this. We will do our best to keep him safe with you at home.
 
Thank you for taking in a very complicated kitty. Because he was DKA it’s important not to skip shots and also for you to make sure he gets enough food, stays hydrated, and enough insulin. Are you testing for ketones either with urine test strips or a ketone meter?

Do you have karo or honey in case you need to bring up his bg quickly? You don’t need to feed RX food so get some food that is 3-9% carbs which is lc, 10-15% which is mc, and above 15% which is hc.

When you test and get a bg in green it’s important to feed a little and retest in 20-30 minutes. 78 is not in the danger zone but under 68 calls for a reduction when using pet meter regardless of the type of meter used. We use two dosing methods here so have a look and decide if you want to use one of them. Most of us use human meters because the test strips cost so much less.

I have more to say but want you to see this. We will do our best to keep him safe with you at home.
I have urine test strips and will test his urine when he goes again (I haven't done this yet though)

I have both karo and honey.

I chose to go with a RX food because they have the SO Index or equivalent depending on the brand, and I'm not risking another blockage. He LOVED Purina DM but the next day vomited and was hospitalized and now won't eat it. He loves Glycobalance though, so I plan to feed that until I can get him to eat DM again.

Feeding Schedule: Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, and Night meal. He gets 1 can at each meal (4 cans/day).
 
I’d feed a little now. How’s his weight? If underweight add a mini meal at +4 when blue or green. If overweight you can save some of his breakfast for mini meals before lunch. Small meals more often will help prevent him going too low.

Forgot to say his current food if canned is ok carbs.
 
I’d feed a little now. How’s his weight? If underweight add a mini meal at +4 when blue or green. If overweight you can save some of his breakfast for mini meals before lunch. Small meals more often will help prevent him going too low.

Forgot to say his current food if canned is ok carbs.
I just tested him again, and it's 89. I'll give him 1/2 a can now. His weight is normal and has been consistent since he came from the streets.

Thanks for being supportive about his diet!! I know many don't like the RX diets for diabetes, but he has other medical conditions too, so I feel more comfortable feeding him an RX diabetic diet that's also specifically formulated for FLUTD.
 
While I am not fond of RX diets there are times when needed. You have a lot going on so need to find what works but slowly. Max had a urinary blockage and a vet pierced his bladder. I nearly lost him. I put him on Hills CD as suggested by my vet and he never blocked again. When he got chronic pancreatitis my vet said I could switch to any canned food. Max had been a dry food junkies but I had forced him to eat mostly cd canned until then. His new foods were high carb wet. He was my first diabetic so I never paid attention to carbs. Fast forward to my current two who are now 5 1/2. They are fed raw commercial and I spend more on their food than mine. One developed skin allergies when on fancy feast as a kitten so I made the switch. All this to say you need to do what works for your cat.
 
I think you need to see how this cycle goes before deciding on tonight’s dose. Lantus likes consistency so I am thinking .75 but see how it goes. I would not shoot 1.0 unless you can monitor a lot and feed to prevent a drop too low. Cats often drop lower at night. Max and I had lots of pj parties yet I was usually able to stop testing by +5-6 during the day. ECID and nadirs can move around a lot, especially at first. If the bg drops much lower than the cat is used to or too quickly they will often bounce high as the liver panics and releases glucose. That is what happened on 4/14 when you saw the pink.
 
I think you need to see how this cycle goes before deciding on tonight’s dose. Lantus likes consistency so I am thinking .75 but see how it goes. I would not shoot 1.0 unless you can monitor a lot and feed to prevent a drop too low. Cats often drop lower at night. Max and I had lots of pj parties yet I was usually able to stop testing by +5-6 during the day. ECID and nadirs can move around a lot, especially at first. If the bg drops much lower than the cat is used to or too quickly they will often bounce high as the liver panics and releases glucose. That is what happened on 4/14 when you saw the pink.
Yeah I was thinking maybe 0.75 too, but I'm so new to this and don't know what I'm doing yet haha. I'm glad my instincts aren't too far off!!!

How often do you think I should test today?

I ordered the U-100 syringes with 1/2 unit markings today, and hopefully it won't take too long for them to get here. For now, I'm just using the regular U-100 syringes. I think I should be able to get close 0.75 units with the regular syringes though. My local Walmart doesn't have the ones with 1/2 units unfortunately.

I work long hours (I'm accountant, and it's busy season), but I'll be working from home most of the week thankfully.
 
I think you need to see how this cycle goes before deciding on tonight’s dose. Lantus likes consistency so I am thinking .75 but see how it goes. I would not shoot 1.0 unless you can monitor a lot and feed to prevent a drop too low. Cats often drop lower at night. Max and I had lots of pj parties yet I was usually able to stop testing by +5-6 during the day. ECID and nadirs can move around a lot, especially at first. If the bg drops much lower than the cat is used to or too quickly they will often bounce high as the liver panics and releases glucose. That is what happened on 4/14 when you saw the pink.
I just tested him again, and it's 79.
 
Nice and flat. I’d test an hour from the last test. Feed a teaspoon or two. If the bg is flat test in another hour. If going up get a +8-10 and if still under 100 a +11.5 so you have an idea what the pmps will be. It still on the low side at +10 feed a teaspoon or two and then pick up food until pmps. If these times dint work for you and you need to test less it’s okay. I figured you might be working from home.
You do have good instincts. I can tell you understands cats.
 
Nice and flat. I’d test an hour from the last test. Feed a teaspoon or two. If the bg is flat test in another hour. If going up get a +8-10 and if still under 100 a +11.5 so you have an idea what the pmps will be. It still on the low side at +10 feed a teaspoon or two and then pick up food until pmps. If these times dint work for you and you need to test less it’s okay. I figured you might be working from home.
You do have good instincts. I can tell you understands cats.
Thank you so much for all your help!! I just tested again, and it's 101. I've been updating his spreadsheet too. I'm going to keep testing every hour. It's the cats' dinner time in 15 minutes. Maybe I'll hold off on "snacks" after dinner until it's time for his PM shot. He's been acting like he's starving today (like he was before starting insulin).
 
Murs was diagnosed with diabetes on April 6, 2022 and then had DKA on April 9, 2022. He's on Lantus and currently eats RC Glycobalance canned food. He's my first diabetic cat, and I'm very anxious about everything. I'm very experienced with many other conditions but not diabetes.
Just tagging Bron again in case she didn't see the first tag
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
Please read post #1
Thank you Bron
 
Hi and welcome Becca and Murs to the forum. It’s stressful having a kitty diagnosed with diabetes but then throw in DKA and it is very stressful. It’s great Murs is home again and you look as if you are doing a good job looking after him. Lucky boy!

The recipe for DKA is not enough insulin, not enough food and an infection or inflammation. So to treat DKA…….once they get home from hospital…..is to make sure that recipe does not occur again. So we need to feed enough food, give enough insulin ( don’t skip doses) and to make sure any infection or inflammation has been addressed by the vet and if antibiotics have been ordered, make sure they are all given.
It usually takes a few weeks for the kitty to get back to normal….some take longer than others. But you will always have to be aware that Murs is prone to ketones so if he is ever off his food, or lethargic or not well, test for ketones. It is so much easier to treat them if they are a trace of ketones and not full blown DKA. Testing for ketones daily is important because that tells us if we have the balance of food, fluids and insulin right. If there is even a trace of ketones please tell us straight away. If there is more than a trace, you need to tell the vet.
To make sure he can get some insulin, we might have to feed a higher carb food at times for a few days…….this sounds contrary to feeding a diabetic cat…but the must the most important thing is that he is eating and getting the insulin he needs to keep the ketones away. Does that all make sense to you?
Just to clarify….are you feeding any dry food at the moment?

For now this should be your plan for the next week or two.
  • you need to give one and a half times as many calories as he/she normally eats. Offer snacks every couple of hours during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals. Food is like a medicine and helps keep ketones away. If your kitty won’t eat the low carb food, feed him whatever he will eat as eating any food is better than not eating,
  • Don’t skip any doses of insulin as insulin helps keep ketones away. If the BG is not high enough to give the dose…stall, dont feed and test again in 20 minutes and post and ask for help.
  • Test daily for ketones. Put the results of the tests into the remarks column of the SS so we can see. Please report any trace ketones at all.
  • Give antinausea medication if needed
  • Give appetite stimulant if needed after the antinausea medication
  • Give extra fluids. If kitty will tolerate warm water in the food, put a teaspoon into each snack..
  • Ask the vet about subQ fluids
  • Keep the spreadsheet up to date so we can see what is happening and test the BG frequently
  • Post daily with updates and ask for help as often as you need to.
Bron
 
Hi and welcome Becca and Murs to the forum. It’s stressful having a kitty diagnosed with diabetes but then throw in DKA and it is very stressful. It’s great Murs is home again and you look as if you are doing a good job looking after him. Lucky boy!

The recipe for DKA is not enough insulin, not enough food and an infection or inflammation. So to treat DKA…….once they get home from hospital…..is to make sure that recipe does not occur again. So we need to feed enough food, give enough insulin ( don’t skip doses) and to make sure any infection or inflammation has been addressed by the vet and if antibiotics have been ordered, make sure they are all given.
It usually takes a few weeks for the kitty to get back to normal….some take longer than others. But you will always have to be aware that Murs is prone to ketones so if he is ever off his food, or lethargic or not well, test for ketones. It is so much easier to treat them if they are a trace of ketones and not full blown DKA. Testing for ketones daily is important because that tells us if we have the balance of food, fluids and insulin right. If there is even a trace of ketones please tell us straight away. If there is more than a trace, you need to tell the vet.
To make sure he can get some insulin, we might have to feed a higher carb food at times for a few days…….this sounds contrary to feeding a diabetic cat…but the must the most important thing is that he is eating and getting the insulin he needs to keep the ketones away. Does that all make sense to you?
Just to clarify….are you feeding any dry food at the moment?

For now this should be your plan for the next week or two.
  • you need to give one and a half times as many calories as he/she normally eats. Offer snacks every couple of hours during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals. Food is like a medicine and helps keep ketones away. If your kitty won’t eat the low carb food, feed him whatever he will eat as eating any food is better than not eating,
  • Don’t skip any doses of insulin as insulin helps keep ketones away. If the BG is not high enough to give the dose…stall, dont feed and test again in 20 minutes and post and ask for help.
  • Test daily for ketones. Put the results of the tests into the remarks column of the SS so we can see. Please report any trace ketones at all.
  • Give antinausea medication if needed
  • Give appetite stimulant if needed after the antinausea medication
  • Give extra fluids. If kitty will tolerate warm water in the food, put a teaspoon into each snack..
  • Ask the vet about subQ fluids
  • Keep the spreadsheet up to date so we can see what is happening and test the BG frequently
  • Post daily with updates and ask for help as often as you need to.
Bron
Thanks! Thankfully, I have LRS, cyproheptadine, cerenia, and other meds in case he needs anything! I have 5 other special needs cats on various meds.

I'm only feeding him RC Glycobalance canned food (no other food or treats). He loves Glycobalance and will eat as much as I give him lol. Should I be feeding him more than 4 cans/day? He weighs around 10 lbs.

What dose do you think I should give him tonight? I'll be giving it in about an hour and a half (after I test of course).
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA) Thanks. What do you think about tonight’s dose?

Becca, what do you think is his ideal weight? What size are the cans and how many calories? How is his appetite current? You haven’t mentioned it being an issue.
 
What dose do you think I should give him tonight? I'll be giving it in about an hour and a half (after I test of course).
Lets see what he is at PMPS. Are you able to monitor the BGs overnight?

I can see you haven’t many tests in during the PM cycles. Always try and get at least one test in during the pm cycles. Even a before bed test is a good habit to get into. If that test is lower than the preshot, I would set the alarm and test again to see he hasn’t dropped lower. If you are shooting a lower number you would need to monitor more closely.

Do you have any higher carb food at home in case we need it?
 
What do you think about tonight’s dose?
Have you tested for ketones today Becca? That would be really helpful to know. Can you get one before the PM dose is due?
There is no PM cycle data to go on. So I think I would like to see the PMPS first but I’m thinking probably to stay with the same dose if there are no ketones.
 
Lets see what he is at PMPS. Are you able to monitor the BGs overnight?

I can see you haven’t many tests in during the PM cycles. Always try and get at least one test in during the pm cycles. Even a before bed test is a good habit to get into. If that test is lower than the preshot, I would set the alarm and test again to see he hasn’t dropped lower. If you are shooting a lower number you would need to monitor more closely.

Do you have any higher carb food at home in case we need it?
I'm not able to monitor overnight unfortunately :( I work long hours, so I desperately need at least some sleep lol. I'll give insulin around 9:30 pm and can test again around midnight though.

I have lots of food at home, but I'm not sure which diet would be best. I have Glycobalance (dry and canned), Friskies Meaty Bits Variety Pack (canned), Fancy Feast pate (canned), RC SO (dry and canned), RC Multifunction Renal Support + Hydrolyzed Protein (dry), Royal Canin Ultamino (dry), Hill's c/d Stress + Metabolic (dry), Royal Canin Renal Support Early Consult (canned), and probably more that I'm forgetting lol.
 
Have you tested for ketones today Becca? That would be really helpful to know. Can you get one before the PM dose is due?
There is no PM cycle data to go on. So I think I would like to see the PMPS first but I’m thinking probably to stay with the same dose if there are no ketones.
No, I haven't tested for ketones yet. I haven't seen him pee yet today, but I'm annoying and have been putting him in the litter box hoping he'll go. He's very sweet and tolerant thankfully haha. I'm sure he's gone, and I've just missed it.
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA) Thanks. What do you think about tonight’s dose?

Becca, what do you think is his ideal weight? What size are the cans and how many calories? How is his appetite current? You haven’t mentioned it being an issue.
He's around 10 lbs (10 lbs 1 ounce to be precise), which is his ideal weight. The cans are 3 oz and 57 kcal/can. No, he definitely doesn't have a problem with not eating lol. He'll eat however much I give him and ask for more (unless he has DKA, then he won't eat at all).

This is the diet he's eating:
https://www.chewy.com/royal-canin-v...5&cnxclid=16502409564095369608810080301008005
 
I would go with 0.5units and get a+1 and +2 to see if the BG is dropping. Also get that midnight one. If he is not in safe numbers you may have to get back up and test again…….just putting that out there…….but we can’t afford to skip a dose.
Make sure he eats well pre the shot.
I also think you could add in another can for the day at least as 57 calories per can is not a lot.
Can you post the +1 please so I can see what it is? Thanks.
Are you happy with that?
 
I can see in the SS where you are saying he is begging for food. If this happens (except for the 2 hours preshot) let him eat. The more food he will eat the better it is for his recovery. The hunger will level off as he recovers.
You ( and we) are lucky he wants to eat….a lot of cats post DKA struggle to eat much at all. :)
We don’t want him to go under 68 on the alphatrak meter so if he is heading towards that post and feed him some food.
 
I can see in the SS where you are saying he is begging for food. If this happens (except for the 2 hours preshot) let him eat. The more food he will eat the better it is for his recovery. The hunger will level off as he recovers.
You ( and we) are lucky he wants to eat….a lot of cats post DKA struggle to eat much at all. :)
We don’t want him to go under 68 on the alphatrak meter so if he is heading towards that post and feed him some food.
Thanks so much for your help! I gave him 0.5 units, and he ate 1 can of Glycobalance and 1/4 can of RC Early Consult (my friend, who's a vet nurse, said to give some higher carb food too).

I really lucked out having him as my first diabetic cat!! He has a great appetite, isn't picky, and is the sweetest, most patient boy!!! I'll test at +1 and +2 and will post it!
 
I can see in the SS where you are saying he is begging for food. If this happens (except for the 2 hours preshot) let him eat. The more food he will eat the better it is for his recovery. The hunger will level off as he recovers.
You ( and we) are lucky he wants to eat….a lot of cats post DKA struggle to eat much at all. :)
We don’t want him to go under 68 on the alphatrak meter so if he is heading towards that post and feed him some food.
148 at +1
 
I can see in the SS where you are saying he is begging for food. If this happens (except for the 2 hours preshot) let him eat. The more food he will eat the better it is for his recovery. The hunger will level off as he recovers.
You ( and we) are lucky he wants to eat….a lot of cats post DKA struggle to eat much at all. :)
We don’t want him to go under 68 on the alphatrak meter so if he is heading towards that post and feed him some food.
180 at +2. Should I feed him some more food before we go to sleep? If so, should I do the Glycobalance or the Renal Early Consult?
 
180 at +2. Should I feed him some more food before we go to sleep? If so, should I do the Glycobalance or the Renal Early Consult?
He is either bouncing from the lower numbers or the 1/2 unit is not enough insulin
I would leave some food out for him to eat during the cycle. Just the low carb option. Will he eat it all at once?
 
He is either bouncing from the lower numbers or the 1/2 unit is not enough insulin
I would leave some food out for him to eat during the cycle. Just the low carb option. Will he eat it all at once?
So the challenging thing is all (now) 6 of my cats each eat a different diet, so I can't leave food out. I would have to lock him in the bathroom overnight, which I know he wouldn't like (he usually sleeps in the bed with us). Plus, he would definitely eat it all at once anyway lol. I can give him another can of Glycobalance now if you think that's best though!
 
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So the challenging thing is all (now) 6 of my cats eat a different diet, so I can't leave food out. I would have to lock him in the bathroom overnight, which I know he wouldn't like (he usually sleeps in the bed with us). Plus, he would definitely eat it all at once anyway lol. I can give him another can of Glycobalance now if you think that's best though!
Maybe I should stay up for another hour and test again at +3? What do you think?
Yes, good idea and then I would give him the food last thing before you go to bed. I doubt he will drop back but it’s all good data.
Your a good cat mom!
 
170 at +3. I'll feed him now and then head to bed. Thanks so much for your help!!
Sleep well!. When you get a chance can you put DKA in the signature please so anyone helping you knows the history.thx.
Can you post the AMPS tomorrow please in case he needs a dose increase? Hopefully I’ll still just be awake.
 
Sleep well!. When you get a chance can you put DKA in the signature please so anyone helping you knows the history.thx.
Can you post the AMPS tomorrow please in case he needs a dose increase? Hopefully I’ll still just be awake.
His BG was 116 at 9:15 am (last tested at 11:42 pm). He hasn't had insulin yet. What do you think should be the dose?

I had a call at 9, and told my husband not to do insulin until I was done with the call and we discussed the dose. There was a miscommunication, and he ended up feeding him (I was planning to test again after my call at 9:45).
 
His BG was 116 at 9:15 am (last tested at 11:42 pm). He hasn't had insulin yet. What do you think should be the dose?

I had a call at 9, and told my husband not to do insulin until I was done with the call and we discussed the dose. There was a miscommunication, and he ended up feeding him (I was planning to test again after my call at 9:45).

You shot 0.5 yesterday with a comparable number, so I would go ahead and do that.

You're doing great Becca!
 
I’d give him .5.
I see we cross posted. Looks like so far this will be his dose. I’m glad he didn’t bounce.
I messed up this morning :( I was in a rush and am 99% sure I did a fur shot and it all went on my finger. I gave a tiny bit more (maybe 0.2 units, but it's hard to say). I left comments in my spreadsheet and have been updating it.

He's due for his PM injection in an hour, and I would really appreciate your help determining which dose to give. You've been so wonderful, and I appreciate it so much!

I'll comment again in an hour or so when I do his PMPS.
 
Hi. Are you saying your shot an extra .2 after the possible fur shot? If that happens again don’t shoot more as there’s no way to know how much might have gotten in. Often it’s more than we think. I’ll check back in an hour.
 
Hi. Are you saying your shot an extra .2 after the possible fur shot? If that happens again don’t shoot more as there’s no way to know how much might have gotten in. Often it’s more than we think. I’ll check back in an hour.
I wouldn't even call it a fur shot. It was more of a "I squirted it all over my finger" shot lol. Trust me, it will never happen again. I've learned my lesson and will never try to give insulin when I'm super rushed. I almost had a mental breakdown when it happened lol

Anyway, his PMPS is 149.
 
:bighug: You can give him .50.
Thanks so much!! I just gave him his PM shot at 11 pm. Is there a way to safely move the time to 8am/8pm instead? Unfortunately, my husband and I both have to go to work on Wednesday (instead of WFH). I feel awful about this and really hope there's a safe way to do it.

Does it ever get easier? At least once a day I freak out and lose my mind lol. Today it's been twice - first when I shot his dose on myself and now that I'm realizing neither of us will be home on Wednesday :( :( :(
 
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