New Member Michelle & Oudi

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Luyi

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Hi, I'm Michelle, Oudi is my sugarboy, diagnosed back in 15/10/24. We live in Malaysia. Here's some info on his condition, my apologies because the post is lengthy as he has other concurrent issues.

During his first vet visit on 15/10 due to his PU/PD/ravenous of food and weight loss, CBC/Bio chem/proBnP/fPL2/heart UT/TT4/Electrolytes were done to check his overall health status. Belows are some important indications:

Glucose 497 mg/dL
ProBnP 179.3 pmol/L
Heart UT/Echo Mitral valve insufficiency
fPL2 5.5 ng/mL
TT4 normal
BP normal

From the tests, vet started insulin, 0.11ml glargine and diamel for diabetes, IV fluids and meloxicam for pancreatitis. Vet's plan was to control Oudi's diabetes first and will address his heart issues later. He was then sent home for monitoring. After 3 days, he was hospitalized due to my incompetency to monitor his BG at home. 7 days of hospitalized to get his BG curve and he was discharged on 25/10, sent home medications were diamel and meloxicam, and insulin 0.4ml BID. His fPL2 was 4.5 ng/mL, showing improvement in pancreatitis.

About the dosing of insulin, from the reading in feline diabetes fb group, I found that members are talking about u100 or u40 syringes and everyone is measuring the insulin in units. I was confused, hence I got back to my vet and asked about this, she said they are following the instructions from supplier in the preparation of insulin. I trust my vet, and Oudi was doing ok, no hypo, PU/PD improved significantly, appetite ok. She then told me 0.4ml = 2iu. For the time being, I stick to the treatment plan.

Follow up one week after hospitalization, fPL2 up to 7.6 ng/mL. Vet thought Oudi might not be responding to meloxicam, hence fentanyl patch was used for his pain management. The next follow up was a week later, his fPL2 shoot up to 9.6 ng/mL, and this round Oudi was prescribed tramadol. I monitored closely for any adverse effects, the first 3 days was ok. The fourth day after tramadol, Oudi lost his appetite, he only ate some. I was not sure whether he was in pain or nauseous. The next day, I noticed he had increased breathing rate and he was lethargic.

Sent him to vet the next morning, he was hospitalized for 3 days, blood test/ProBnP/x-ray was done. ProBnP was 384.2pmol/L. X-ray showed pleural effusion, echo showed enlarged, thickening ventricle wall and enlarged atrium indicating hypertrophic cardiomyopathy causing congestive heart failure. Thoracocentesis was performed and removed 175ml of fluids, and 50ml fluids the next day.

After 3 days of hospitalization, he was sent home with pimobendan, clopidogrel and furosemide for CHF. His fPL2 sky-rocketed to 13.6 ng/mL this round. Vet stopped tramadol and prescribed budesonide for the pancreatitis. As budesonide can interfere with insulin sensitivity, hence his routine for the last 3 days was 0.35ml/0.15ml/0.35ml/0.15ml to see how the BG reacted, and the reading was not good, his numbers were +/-200mg/dL in nadir and +/-500mg/dL or HI preshot.

For now, I confirmed that the glargine is diluted. Vet told me it is diluted in "special solution" to 5 units/ml. My dilemma now is I want to give Oudi undiluted glargine, and I actually has scheduled an appointment with another vet last week before his CHF episode. But due to his hospitalization I had to cancel the appointment.

Should I stick to the current vet treatment plan or it's better for me to seek second opinion? The diluted glargine is very expensive, and for the past one month I'm both mentally and financially stressed. Oudi's medical costs are very high. I would like to hear inputs from the experienced members here, be it regarding diabetes, pancreatitis or CHF. A member in fb group suggested "animal essentials plant enzyme & probiotics" for his pancreatitis flare up, anyone has luck with it?

Thanks in advance and sorry again for the long post!
 
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Hi and welcome to the forum.
Diluted glargine is NOT used for cats. I would go to another vet who hopefully knows more about feline diabetes. Please ask for the normal glargine, not diluted.

The syringes you need are U100, 3/10 ml, 30 or 31 gauge, 6 or 8 mm insulin syringes. Insulin syringes with 1/2 unit markings would be ideal but I’m not sure you can get them in Malaysia.

Are you hometesting the blood glucose?

what type of food are you feeding Oudi?
Is he eating well for you now?
I don’t think you have been getting the correct care for pancreatitis either. It is mostly supportive with antinausea medication, pain medication and sub Q fluids if needed although with a heart condition the fluids would most likely be contra indicated.
I will tag @Wendy&Neko and @Sienne and Gabby (GA) about the treatment of the heart issues.

I'm going to ask @Bandit's Mom if she can set up a spreadsheet for you as I can see you have your hands full looking after Oudi
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.
Diluted glargine is NOT used for cats. I would go to another vet who hopefully knows more about feline diabetes. Please ask for the normal glargine, not diluted.

Ok, I'll schedule an appointment with another vet with normal glargine.

The syringes you need are U100, 3/10 ml, 30 or 31 gauge, 6 or 8 mm insulin syringes. Insulin syringes with 1/2 unit markings would be ideal but I’m not sure you can get them in Malaysia.

3/10 ml means 0.3 ml? The second vet has the insulin pen, thus I believe they have appropriate syringes too, if not I can look from local pharmacies. Online store has U100 0.5ml, can it be used?

Are you hometesting the blood glucose?

Yes, am using AccuChek human glucometer, he needs insulin shots 4x per day, so I'm taking 8 readings, preshot, +4 and +6.

what type of food are you feeding Oudi?

Whiskas 7+ pàtè & snappy tom canned food, and a small amount of RC diabetic kibbles as treat when I check his BG.

Is he eating well for you now?

After discharged from CHF, he's eating ok now, will finish his wet food, not in one go though. Dinner will be boiled fish for him, and this one he will finish on the spot.

I don’t think you have been getting the correct care for pancreatitis either. It is mostly supportive with antinausea medication, pain medication and sub Q fluids if needed although with a heart condition the fluids would most likely be contra indicated.

We tried meloxicam, fentanyl and tramadol, all to no avail. That's why we are trying the corticosteroids (budesonide) now. For your information, the use of buprenorphine is illegal in Malaysia, so we can't access to it.

I will tag @Wendy&Neko and @Sienne and Gabby (GA) about the treatment of the heart issues.

Much appreciated!

I'm going to ask @Bandit's Mom if she can set up a spreadsheet for you as I can see you have your hands full looking after Oudi

I have the spreadsheet with me, an admin of the feline diabetes fb group had set it up for me. The reason that I haven't fill it out is because I was confused with the amount of insulin used. Now that I know the insulin is diluted and confirmed the units with the vet, I'll start filling in.
 
In case you get any pushback from any vet, Glargine (generic lantus) should never be mixed with anything, including other insulins. This is because it’s in a carefully balanced solution, designed to some out of solution and be deposited subcutaneously after injection. Mixing it alters the solution pH and it may no longer work.
This is for Lantus (I’ll see if the generic insert can be found)—it clearly states DO NOT DILUTE OR MIX
https://www.lantus.com/how-to-use/how-to-inject
 
In case you get any pushback from any vet, Glargine (generic lantus) should never be mixed with anything, including other insulins. This is because it’s in a carefully balanced solution, designed to some out of solution and be deposited subcutaneously after injection. Mixing it alters the solution pH and it may no longer work.
This is for Lantus (I’ll see if the generic insert can be found)—it clearly states DO NOT DILUTE OR MIX
https://www.lantus.com/how-to-use/how-to-inject

Yes, I read that online too, that's why I'm thinking of seeking second advise for his insulin dose. With his recent CHF episode and budesonide added in his treatment regime for pancreatitis, his daily dose is increased to 0.4ml/0.2ml/0.4ml/0.2ml (2u/1u/2u/1u). Thank you for enlightened that to me again.
 
Vet stopped tramadol and prescribed budesonide for the pancreatitis. As budesonide can interfere with insulin sensitivity
Neko was on full time budesonide for her small cell lymphoma, had heart conditions (HCM and CHF) and the budesonide never interfered with her insulin sensitivity. Some small number of cats budesonide does have an impact, but in general we work the insulin dose around a needed medication if it impacts the blood sugars. Speaking of which, budesonide is not generally used for pancreatitis. Buprenorphone, however, is a good pain medication that is often given.

This post has some good information on how to treat pancreatitis. A Primer On Pancreatitis Your vet needs to give you a prescription for anti nausea medication too. Heart disease can also cause nausea, as does the pancreatitis.

With CHF, your cat should not be getting fluids, especially with pleural effusion.
Vet's plan was to control Oudi's diabetes first and will address his heart issues later.
Completely wrong order. The heart is the most important thing to control. As Sienne said, you need a specialist vet looking at Oudi. Good luck. :bighug:
 
Yes, I read that online too, that's why I'm thinking of seeking second advise for his insulin dose. With his recent CHF episode and budesonide added in his treatment regime for pancreatitis, his daily dose is increased to 0.4ml/0.2ml/0.4ml/0.2ml (2u/1u/2u/1u). Thank you for enlightened that to me again.
I knew you knew it I just wanted you to have the link to show any vet who tells you to dilute it. I hope the new one works out. Good luck!
 
Given what your vet's been telling you, I'd see if there is a veterinary cardiologist in your area. Your cat is likely going to need more tests or labs to figure out what's going on. If there's no cardiologist, then an internal medicine specialist may be another option.

I'm not aware we have animal cardiologist or internal medicine specialist here. Btw, what are the tests or labs that needed? Thanks
 
Buprenorphone, however, is a good pain medication that is often given.

The use of buprenorphine is illegal in Malaysia, I can't access to it, unless the vet get from Singapore, but it will be very costly.


No luck for that, we don't have such specialist here, all are general practitioner who treats any pets. That's why we have to learn ourselves online when our pets get sick.
 
Re the syringes…the 0.3ml one is much better than the 0.5 ml syringes becausel you can get more accurate doses. So I would try for that one if you can.
Do you think you could put the spreadsheet into your signature please?
Here is info on the SS and signature HELP US HELP YOU
Offer him snacks during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals.
 
he was hospitalized due to my incompetency to monitor his BG at home
I missed this when I read your post the first time. Stop this! I know how fast we all blame ourselves. You should not. You’ve been very proactive finding information, advocating for your kitty, getting all these tests and specialist evaluations. You are doing everything that can be done. It seems like every little mistake we make is the end of all hope—I know, I’m in despair because I didn’t pick up my other cat’s food and methos snuck in and ate some and it feels like the end of the world. But it’s not. It sounds like he was sent home for you to manage his diabetes and pancreatitis—these are complicated problems. Even perfect care can end up needing hospitalization. You took him in and he got better. That’s the important thing.
No more blaming yourself please :)
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Re the syringes…the 0.3ml one is much better than the 0.5 ml syringes becausel you can get more accurate doses. So I would try for that one if you can.
Do you think you could put the spreadsheet into your signature please?
Here is info on the SS and signature HELP US HELP YOU
Offer him snacks during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals.

Ok, I'll fill in the sheet, but it was a mess during his hospitalization as I was not given the readings nor dosing record. I asked vet for that and she told me they kept adjusting the dose hence it was a mess, end up I got all the readings from the memory of the glucometer, but no dosing reference. Before Oudi CHF episode I did not check his BG as vet told me he was stable with the dosing, plus Oudi isn't that cooperative during BG check/insulin shot.

Readings from 15/11 onwards are more reliable as I monitored it closely. Do give me some times to get the spreadsheet done, thanks.
 
Neko was on full time budesonide for her small cell lymphoma, had heart conditions (HCM and CHF) and the budesonide never interfered with her insulin sensitivity. Some small number of cats budesonide does have an impact, but in general we work the insulin dose around a needed medication if it impacts the blood sugars. Speaking of which, budesonide is not generally used for pancreatitis. Buprenorphone, however, is a good pain medication that is often given.

This post has some good information on how to treat pancreatitis. A Primer On Pancreatitis Your vet needs to give you a prescription for anti nausea medication too. Heart disease can also cause nausea, as does the pancreatitis.

With CHF, your cat should not be getting fluids, especially with pleural effusion.

Completely wrong order. The heart is the most important thing to control. As Sienne said, you need a specialist vet looking at Oudi. Good luck. :bighug:

Oudi needs to review his fPL2 after 7 days of budesonide to see if he's responding to the medicine, but I will schedule an appointment with another vet and see what she thinks. Will talk to the vet too if ondansetron or maropitant is needed.
 
I missed this when I read your post the first time. Stop this! I know how fast we all blame ourselves. You should not. You’ve been very proactive finding information, advocating for your kitty, getting all these tests and specialist evaluations. You are doing everything that can be done. It seems like every little mistake we make is the end of all hope—I know, I’m in despair because I didn’t pick up my other cat’s food and methos snuck in and ate some and it feels like the end of the world. But it’s not. It sounds like he was sent home for you to manage his diabetes and pancreatitis—these are complicated problems. Even perfect care can end up needing hospitalization. You took him in and he got better. That’s the important thing.
No more blaming yourself please :)
:bighug::bighug::bighug:

Thanks for the words of encouragement. No no I'm not blaming myself actually, but the frustration is there for not knowing more to help. Oudi is my first sugarcat, and I've no experience in pancreatitis nor CHF. He isn't that cooperative with me, he was one of my rescues back in 2019. Oudi is probably more than 10 yrs old, had serious UTI and ear hematoma before, I try to do everything I can, but this round it's like one challenge after another, so I'm kinda stressed, both mentally and financially.
 
No clue, this is the same vet giving you diluted insulin?

Yes. Btw I have scheduled appointment with another vet today. Oudi is not doing well, looks like he has another episode of pleural effusion, will discuss with this new vet what to do. If nothing can be done, I may need to think of his quality of life.
 
Yes. Btw I have scheduled appointment with another vet today. Oudi is not doing well, looks like he has another episode of pleural effusion, will discuss with this new vet what to do. If nothing can be done, I may need to think of his quality of life.
:bighug:
 
Right now, treating the heart is the most important thing. You are dealing with multiple conditions at once. That is very hard on you - you are doing a great job with him. :bighug: I hope the vet appointment helps. It's not uncommon for fluids to come back with CHF and need to be drained again. Did the vet talk to you about measuring his RR or resting respiration rate? You count the number of complete in and out breaths in a minute when they are at rest. I used the timer on my phone. Normal is in the 20-30 range. I knew when Neko's heart was having difficulties if her numbers went above 26, and would call for a vet appointment.
he was sent home with pimobendan, clopidogrel and furosemide for CHF
All good choices for him at this point.

That article mentions corticosteroids, but also says they are used when there is another condition present as well. Which has not yet been diagnosed. And you definitely do not want to use prednisolone in a cat with a heart condition, hence the use of budesonide as a steroid.
 
Right now, treating the heart is the most important thing. You are dealing with multiple conditions at once. That is very hard on you - you are doing a great job with him. :bighug: I hope the vet appointment helps. It's not uncommon for fluids to come back with CHF and need to be drained again. Did the vet talk to you about measuring his RR or resting respiration rate? You count the number of complete in and out breaths in a minute when they are at rest. I used the timer on my phone. Normal is in the 20-30 range. I knew when Neko's heart was having difficulties if her numbers went above 26, and would call for a vet appointment.

All good choices for him at this point.

Vet didn't tell me anything about RR but I read it online, his RR is more than 40.

It seems like everything I do worsen his condition, I don't know! Oudi was a stray, I saved him from a serious UTI that almost taken his life back in 2019, vet thought he might be more than 10 years old that time as he only left with 3 teeth.

I'm not sure whether I can still afford his medical bills, I had spent few thousand bucks at the first vet. I feel very sorry to Oudi.
 
You are not making his condition worse. :bighug: His body is complicated now with a lot of different conditions. Good luck at the vet.
 
Update after the new vet visit, abdominocentesis was performed, 150ml milky fluids drained, vet suspects FIP, will monitor his condition at home. Continue with previous vet medications, but change to normal glargine. We start with 2.1 units this PM, his PMPS is HI, +3 32.9 mmol/L, will check +6 later. New vet thought Oudi has received extensive treatment from previous vet, so nothing much can be done.

Oudi is still eating voluntarily, no appetite stimulants nor anti nausea medicine, we'll see how's his condition this coming few days. Finger cross.
 
Vet told me they start with 0.7U/kg, with Oudi's current weight of 3kg, then it'll be (0.7x3kg)/100=2.1. They gave me U30 syringe, draw up to the first 2 line, so it's 2 units. I'll go pharmacy later to see if they have syringe with half mark.

Oudi started with 2 units PMPS, +3 32.9 mmol/L, +6 32.9 mmol/L, it's stagnant. AMPS 26.8 mmol/L, it's still dropping, I never encounter BG continue to drop after +12. Is this normal?

Regarding FIP, I'm familiar with it, I do hope it's not, considering his age and complicated health condition, I doubt he can pull it through. Most vets don't have the injection, we need to source it out through Malaysia FIP group. Thanks for your info!
 
Lantus/glargine should be dosed with U-100 syringes as it is a U-100 insulin. If you are using a U-30 syringe, then that is 100/30 or 3.33 times the dose. Two units on a U-30 syringe would be 6.66 units of Lantus! That is way too much to start with. Hopefully the pharmacy can get you some U-100 3/10cc (or 30 unit) syringes with half unit markings. BD is a common vendor of U-100 syringes available in most of the world.

For starting dose with glargine, it depends if he is getting dry food. It sounds like you are giving the RC "diabetic" dry, so we would start him on 1 unit. Could you create a blank line on the spreadsheet, and put something on that line saying you are switching to regular glargine, and not the diluted one. It'll probably impact his blood sugar numbers.
AMPS 26.8 mmol/L, it's still dropping, I never encounter BG continue to drop after +12. Is this normal?
Not normal, but not uncommon. Did you skip insulin yesterday morning?

We do have one member here who's kitty had FIP and he's doing well a number of years later. He had the injections.
 
Yesterday morning I gave diluted Glargine, regular Glargine started yesterday PMPS. The syringe I used currently is 0.3ml or 30 unit. Can we use 30 or 50 unit syringe? My regular pharmacy doesn't have stocks, I'll need to ask a few more pharmacies. In the meantime, I can only use the 30 unit syringe.

Ok, I'll work on a fresh spreadsheet with regular Glargine. Thanks
 
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You don't need to start a fresh spreadsheet, just put a blank line after the last dose with the diluted glargine, then start the regular glargine the line after that.

Check on line pharmacies for human diabetics - they usually have those in stock. The 30 unit syringes may have half unit markings, the 50 unit ones probably not.
 
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