New Member feeling Frustrated

Hi,
My name is Shelley and my 9 year old male cat’s name is Witness. He was diagnosed with Diabetes on Aug 14th, 2020. Witness is on 1.5 units of Lantus Insulin. He weighed 9.7pds on Aug 14th and yesterday, he weighed 8.6pds, so we are concerned about his weight because he had already lost quite a bit before he was diagnosed. He was on a dry food - Hills Science Diet Urinary & Hairball - ate freely. The Vet now has him on Wet - PVD DM Dietetic Management - 1 3/8 of a 156 gram can a day. He gets fed every 12 hrs when he gets his insulin. We are suppose to be doing the “Glucose Curve” and are struggling Bigtime! Using the HQ Pet Control Monitor, but thinking the lancing device is just not working - finally got a tiny bit of blood, but not enough for a test and this is after 2 days of trying and many pokes. My husband & I are going to try my Mom’s old “One Touch” lancing device this afternoon - #s go up to 9, but got major blood from my finger at 7, the pet lancing device only goes to 5. Tried all the tricks I’ve found on this forum - warming ear, trying to get close to vein, pressing lancing device, etc, etc. I honestly don’t know what else to do and we feel like we are just hurting him and getting no results. Some say do from the furry side of the ear and some say do from the inside? Some say put on Vaseline or Polysporin - doesn’t that contaminate the blood? This curve was to be done when he was on Insulin for 10 days, so we are late and really don’t want to give up and take him to the Vet because it’s very expensive and the Insulin, supplies, food and initial examination and diagnosis was already very pricey! So worried about this and his weight loss because now maybe he’s getting too much insulin considering he’s lost weight. His rear legs were affected and he was walking on his haunches, seems a bit better, but still stumbles and still weak rear legs. He’s very hungry and was use to eating when he wants - this twice a day with low carbohydrates is making him lose weight. I would appreciate any advice, especially on how to get the blood glucose and on the weight loss. Thank you!

 

Welcome Shelly. You have come to the best place on earth to regulate your cat and who knows, maybe remission. I’m glad you ditched the dry food and suggest you try your mom’s human meter if she no longer needs it. My vet had me test free hand using a needle. I poked the inner ear. We have diagrams of where to stick. The human test strips are much less expensive and the methods we use here were formulated using human meters.
Most here don’t feed RX food. There’s nothing special about them and they many are higher carb than other pet foods. I fed several small meals day and night and many here free meals feed and just pick up the food two hours before insulin. Many feed fancy feast pates as lots of them are low carb. You are right to be worried about the weight loss because cats can develop fatty liver as well as DKA from ketones in the blood. Look at Lisa Pierson’s food chart for food suggestions. You want a lc, under 19%, a medium carb and some high carb in case the bg gets too low, as well as karo or honey or syrup.
There’s are lots of yellow stickies that show how to get blood as well as informative on everything about FD.
I’ll let others get you started with a spreadsheet and signature. I just wanted to say hi.

 

Some reading.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/health-links-faqs-about-feline-diabetes.14/

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/health-links-faqs-about-feline-diabetes.14/

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...-low-go-slow-slgs-tight-regulation-tr.210110/

 

I went back and read your info again. I do worry that is too high a starting dose given his weight. Just ditching the dry can bring his bg down. Most start with 1 unit. Max was a very large cat, 14 pounds, an he started with 1 unit. He probably could have started higher but I wasn’t testing at home the first month.

 

Hi Shelley, welcome to you, Mr. Shelley, and Witness (such a cool name! ).

It's great that you've already transitioned Witness onto a low carb wet diet and are treating him with a long-acting insulin.

Now, lets see how we can help you. First up, lets get the more straightforward bits out of the way.

The problems Witness is having with leg weakness are due to diabetic neuropathy (high blood glucose (BG) levels affecting the nervous system). You can start treating this straight away by giving Witness a daily vitamin B12 methylcobalamin supplement (dose 3,000mcg per day). If you let us know which country you are in we can recommend where to source a diabetic-friendly product. As Witness' BG regulation improves with his insulin treatment the combination will help his legs to strengthen again. To give you an idea of what is possible, here's Tootsie's story:

Unregulated diabetics can't utilise the nutrients from their food properly, hence the weight loss and also the increased hunger that many feline diabetics exhibit. As Witness' BG levels improve he will be able to benefit properly from the food he is eating.

When a diabetic cat is underweight and in the process of becoming regulated it is recommended to feed it extra to help it maintain the weight it still has. As treatment progresses and regulation improves the kitty should regain weight and the amount fed can gradually be eased back to a maintenance amount thereafter.

When using intermediate-acting insulins such as Vetsulin, the 'large feed before each insulin dose' regimen is necessary because these insulins hit quite hard and fast early in each 12-hour cycle and typically peter out several hours before the next dose is due. Lantus has a gentler onset and is longer-lasting, and that allows for much more flexible feeding schedules, and this is helpful especially when a cat needs to regain weight. It's fine to give additional small meals later in each 12-hour cycle, although it is recommended to give most of the food in the first 6 hours after the Lantus dose was administered, when it's at its most active. The only time when food MUST be withheld is for the two hour period before each preshot BG test to ensure that the reading isn't food-influenced.

I'd suggest touching base with your vet and letting them know that Witness is still losing weight and that you need to feed him more until his regulation improves and he regains weight.

Testing suggestions to follow. Watch this space!


Mogs
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Maddie was exactly the same - went from an overweight 5kg (11lb) to an underweight 3.5kg (7.7lb), a lot of that in the last few weeks before diagnosis, and most of it around her back end. She's on 1U of insulin and heading back in the direction of 4kg, much to my relief. She was on regular dry food before diagnosis, then we switched to Purina DM dry just to keep her eating - now her weight is better she's on lower-carb wet food.

Lantus is a slow-acting insulin, so you really, really don't need to feed him every 12hrs with nothing in between. If he's used to eating freely, I would let him continue to do so, especially considering he's underweight. As tiffmaxee said, 1.5U is quite high as a starting dose, so Witness really needs to eat plenty in order to mop it up.

 

Similar concern here, Elise, particularly given Witness is still very hungry and continuing to lose weight. Hopefully we'll be able to help Shelley and DH to sort out the testing wrinkles so they can get a better picture ASAP.


Mogs
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Hi Shelly my name is jeanne nice to meet you. I'm not able to give dosing advice (just the welcoming committee)

BUT After reading about the problems you are having with the lancing device maybe try what I did. I chucked the damn thing. just hand held the lancet. Made all the difference with Trouble AND me.
I hope this little tip helps and one more thing...

WELCOME TO OUR FAMILY!

 

Hi Shelley,

you already got great advice and I have to agree with what everyone said about the food. Feeding 2 times a day only is not ideal for most cats who are grazers. Smaller meals throughout the day in addition to the 2 at insulin time is also better on their pancreas. A good rule of thumb for daily calorie intake is 20 times ideal weight. So if he should be 10 pounds, he should be getting 200 calories a day at least. More now that he needs to gain. Diabetic cats lose weight because they can’t process the nutrients in food well so they eat but are still constantly hungry and lose weight. They also burn calories just by peeing since there’s sugar in their urine. I’d look at the can and see what the calorie amount is and then figure out how much more you should be feeding him. Based on ideal weight whether it’s 10 or 12 pounds. If you don’t know, you can ask your vet.

I also second b12 methyl. Minnie has severe neuropathy. Could barely walk, couldn’t jump anymore and she recovered completely. Just know that the b12 won’t really start to work until his diabetes is regulated so be patient.

welcome to you and Witness!

 

As promised earlier, here are some testing tips.

I agree with Jeanne's comment above, Shelley: it is MUCH easier to draw samples using the lancet 'freehand' rather than trying to aim for it with a lancet device. (I used a lancet device for a long time before plucking up the courage to freehand the poke and I wish, wish, wish I had tried it sooner. It's much more controllable and it's easier on the kitty's ears too.)

Some resources:

Home testing links and tips

Testing and injection tips


Here's a diagram of the 'sweet spot' on the ear where it is typically easiest to get a blood sample:





The marginal ear vein (MEV) runs around the outer part of the ear flap, just inside the edge. The sweet spot is an area about 1-2mm wide between the MEV and the very edge of the ear. Even if you can't actually see the MEV it is possible to hit the sweet spot successfully. It's the area between the edge of the ear and the MEV. It's only about a millimetre or two in width. If you aim as close as possible to the edge of the ear with your lancet tip you should hit the sweet spot and miss the MEV. (Hitting the MEV is more likely to cause bruising.) It is much, much easier to hit the sweet spot by holding the lancet itself and 'freehanding' the poke, rather than using a lancet device. It helps you to see much better where you're aiming and also gives you better control.

Here is the method I used. Perhaps it might give you some ideas to add to your own testing technique.

1. Fold a sheet of kitchen paper in four lengthwise and cut it up into 1" strips. Use one of these strips to cushion and support the ear during the test.
   
   
2. Put a thin film of Vaseline or Neosporin ointment (not the cream!) onto the edge of the ear to help the blood sample bead up instead of wicking into the fur. (Wipe off any excess.) The ointment won't contaminate the blood sample.
   
   
3. To get a blood sample you need to increase the blood flow to the ear, so make sure the ear is really, really, really warm (but not hot). Especially in the early days, warming the ear thoroughly enough is the best thing you can do to improve your success rate. (Note: With repeated 'poking', more capillaries form in the test area, so it becomes progressively easier to get samples reliably.)
   
   
4. Once you have the testing area of the ear well warmed, wrap a strip of folded kitchen paper round your index finger then place finger under the sweet spot area of the ear you're testing to support it during the poke.
   
   
5. Use your thumb and middle finger to lightly but firmly grip the ear and paper strip in place so that the edge of the ear is taut but not overstretched; the little bit of tension will make it easier for the lancet to break the skin surface (and it helps to keep kitty's head from moving around too much).
   
   
6. Hold the lancet with the bevelled edge of the point facing upwards. Try using the lancet freehand, at a slight angle to the ear, not perpendicular (easier to see where you're aiming and also makes skin prick easier).
   
   
7. When it comes to the actual poke, prick the sweet spot on the edge of the ear in a similar way to how you might quickly prick a balloon with the tip of a needle to make it pop.
   
   
8. When using the glucometer, bring the test strip to where it j-u-s-t comes into contact with the blood droplet and hold it there. The strip should then 'sip up' the amount it needs to run a valid test. Most meters beep or give a visual cue to let you know that enough blood has been collected on the strip.
   
   If your cat is a wriggler, try collecting the blood sample on the back of your (clean) fingernail and test it from there.
   
   
9. After the test, fold the paper strip over the edge of the ear and apply gentle pressure to the test area for about 15-20 seconds to minimise bruising.
   
   
10. Keep praising your cat throughout the process and reward with a favourite diabetic-friendly treat.

With a bit of time and practice you'll be able to work out a technique and a routine that works best for you and Witness.


Mogs
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F you aren’t able to successfully get a test soon I would consider getting the bg checked by your vet about 6 hours after insulin because it could be going too low. Maybe bring your meter and have the tech help you to do it.

 

Important Safety Precaution:

While readings of Witness' BG levels aren't yet available, we need to look at his clinical signs for guidance on how to monitor him properly.

Since Witness is very hungry but losing weight it is reasonable to assume that at the moment his BG levels are high for much of the day. Therefore, as a safety precaution, for the time being it is very important to test his pee daily for the presence of ketones. You can pick up ketone test strips at Walmart (if you're in the US), at pharmacies, or anywhere else that sells supplies for diabetics. Here is more information:

Testing Your Cat for Ketones

Tips for Collecting Urine Samples


Mogs
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Welcome Shelly are you using 28 gauge lancets, if not I would get some , they are thicker and will make a bigger hole. I also test Tyler free hand.
You have gotten very good advice, we feed our cats multiple times during each cycle.

 

If you could set up you signature that would be great

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  • Add any other text, such as
  • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
  • DX: Date
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tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-chart.174147/

Most of us feed Fancy Feast Classics Pate.
You should always have on hand medium and high carb foods and honey in case Witness drops too low.

 

Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Beef Feast in Gravy 20% High Carbs

Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Chicken Feast in Gravy. 15% Med Carbs


Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Turkey Feast in Gravy. 15% Med Carbs


Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Chicken and Beef Feast in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

Good to have these on hand, it's really only the Gravy you would need to feed him, or just a teaspoon of the food.

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
Here are the spreadsheet instructions

 

Thank you so much for the welcome and the advice! I will be trying my Mom’s lancing device in the morning; it has a larger lancet and the lancing device goes up to higher #s. I’ll still use the Pet Monitor & strips, as I don’t have any strips for my Mom’s Monitor and am not sure how to convert yet.
We were planning on changing food, etc after we have the first Glucose Curve done, as Witness is so hungry and losing weight. He had already lost a lot of weight before we took him in. I am concerned about the 1.5 units of Lantus. I had no idea we could feed in between; I assumed he had to have insulin every time he ate. The last couple days we have been giving some of the dry food we use to feed him right after his wet food and he eats it right up! I’m not sure what exactly you mean by a spreadsheet, but I did try to add a signature in the right place, I think. I’m very new to this and quite nervous about changing things, especially with us having problems getting blood. People seem to talk a lot about “vet treats”; what exactly are those?

 

I’ll be honest; our vet isn’t very helpful and unfortunately because of a Covid 19, we weren’t even allowed into the office for them to show us how to inject insulin or do a blood test. We’ve tried to ask questions, but they tend to feel you should just follow directions and not ask questions. We’ve been feeding him some of the dry after the wet the last couple days because he’s just so hungry.

 

Good job on the signature!! It may end up being too long when you add your spreadsheet link but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

If you look below most of our comments in our Signature's, you'll see links to our spreadsheets that we use(d). Mine is titled "China's SS 2018"

Here are the Instructions on getting the FDMB spreadsheet

If you have trouble getting it started, I'd be happy to set it up for you. Just send me a private message by clicking on my name and choosing "start a conversation".....but it's 2am here so it'll be some time tomorrow!

 

Thank you so much for all this! How is B12 given? With a pill or needle? I had researched what the issue was with his rear legs, but the vet said he should go back to normal once he was regulated. He does seem to be a bit better, but still quite weak in the rear legs. I don’t think it helps that he’s losing weight. We didn’t know you could feed him in between the 12 hr feedings at all! My husband has started the last couple days giving him some dry food after his wet food and he eats it right up! Amazing about Tootsie! The vet said Witness would also not be a candidate for remission. And the tech also said in all the time shes worked as a Tech for 10 years, she only seen 2 cats go into remission.
I so appreciate all your advice!

 

My husband has started giving Witness some dry food the last couple days after his wet food because he’s just so hungry. We will definitely be contacting our Vet again because he certainly needs more food!
Thank you so much for your advice; I sincerely appreciate it!

 

Thank you; I’ll check into this!

 

I believe they are 28, but seem small; I’m trying my Mom’s larger ones tomorrow. I did get freehand, but I’m either too tentative or he just doesn’t bleed well. I’m sure it’s me. I’m also trying her lancing device because it does go to higher #s. I honestly didn’t know we could feed him in between. I thought he had to have insulin every time he ate!

 

Thank you so much! I think I may have made this a little too long. This is all pretty new to me and I so appreciate everyone’s advice and help!

 

Is this a food that you can just buy in a regular pet store? Witness likes the wet food from the Vet, but it’s very expensive. It is low carbohydrates and high protein, but he is losing weight on it.

 

So is the Classics one the “low carbohydrates”? The vet told us to have corn syrup and to rub it on his gums if he had a seizure. I’m thinking he should be on medium at least carbohydrates until he gains some weight back?

 

Thank you so much! I’ll try to look at these this weekend; I appreciate it!

 

Thank you so much! I will definitely check out these instructions this weekend! Yes, it’s 1:37am here in Alberta, Canada as well and we will be getting up to try to test Witness’s blood at 6:00am!

 

If Witness has seizures, you might not be able to safely rub the syrup on his gums - it's better applied as soon as he shows mild-to-moderate symptoms of hypo, like being disoriented or very lethargic (not just normal cat-sleepy). Ideally you catch the hypo early and give him a high-carb food (something with gravy is good, so he can lap it up) - the syrup is for when he's too poorly to eat.

Cats don't eat carbs in the wild (apart from the small amount in their prey's stomachs) - unlike us, they can get all their energy from protein and fat with no metabolic problems. So, he can gain weight on a lower-carb food - the important thing with any food is that he eats enough calories in total. That said, a very low carb food can drop BG dramatically, so it's best to introduce it gradually.

Since I'm not testing Maddie yet, I give her lower-carb food during the day (as much as she wants, which is usually two pouches) then leave a bit of diabetic dry food (about half an ounce) out at night in case she gets hungry. That way I can get some sleep without panicking that she might hypo in the night!

 

What is SLGS? So the Hills Science Diet Urinary & Hairball Dry Food is 18.8% fat and 32.2% carbohydrates - is that considered high carbohydrates? That’s what we use to feed him and that’s what we’ve been giving a little bit of after his wet food. But can we give him some of that around noon? Or should it be the high protein, low carbs food? We feed him and give him his insulin at 6:30am and 6:30pm.

 

SLGS stands for "start low, go slow" - it's one approach to insulin dosing.

The Hills food you mention is pretty high in carbs, as are most dry foods. The confusing thing is that most food labels give percentage of each nutrient by weight, whereas the advice here is based on percentage of each nutrient by calories - which can be very different since fat has more than twice the calories, pound for pound, as either carbs or protein.

I used this calculator with the stats from the Hills website, and got a figure of 29.6% calories from carbs, which is lower than a lot of regular kibble but still very high. I couldn't find a Hill's dry food specifically for diabetes, but for comparison, Purina ProPlan DM (diabetes management) is about 13% calories from carbs.

I can't advise you exactly what to feed Witness, as I'm new to all this too and ECID ("every cat is different") - I can only tell you the facts as I understand them. Hopefully someone more experienced than me can give you specific pointers.

 

Hey Everyone,
Not sure if this is where I add a comment or if I should have started a new thread. Finally got blood using my Mom’s lancing device, but had to poke him 3 times because I didn’t put the strip in the machine first because I was scared it was going to time out. So then it gave me an error. He was very stressed while my husband was holding him in a towel! He really felt the poke at #7, but when I finally did it right, it went on right away and gave a 29.8 reading mmol/L, which is higher than when he first went to the vet! So does that mean 1.5 units isn’t enough for him? Or that it isn’t lasting the 12 hrs? I’m feeling like I should go down to the #6 so I don’t hurt him so much and obviously you have to put the strip in the machine and then hurry up! Otherwise you get an error! Can I put it in part way, do the poke and then push it in the rest of the way before putting blood on it?

 

You can buy it at any supermarket in the US, where do you live

 

Yes the Classics are low carb, there is also one that is 6% carbs Fancy Feast Grilled Chicken take a look at the food chart,
Most of the Classics are 2 or 3 % carbs
We like to stay under 10% carbs

 

THATS EXACTLY how you do it!

 

That’s exactly what you want to do. Insert the strip half way or as in as it goes without turning meter on then poke then push it in all the way to get the reading. Another trick is to get the blood on a clean finger nail and test it from there instead of having to put the strip up to his ear. It works best for cats that are not very cooperative or patient. Also, give a treat after each test attempt no matter if it’s a fail. He needs to start to build a positive association with testing and treats are the best way to do that!

for food, repeating some of what I said on my post #8 not sure you caught it. a good rule of thumb for daily calorie intake is 20 times ideal weight. So if he should be 10 pounds, he should be getting 200 calories a day at least. If he should be 16 like Minnie, 320 and so on and so forth. Whatever number you get, I’d feed him a bit more now that he needs to gain. Diabetic cats lose weight because they can’t process the nutrients in food well so they eat but are still constantly hungry and lose weight. They also burn calories just by peeing since there’s sugar in their urine. Here’s a great food chart we refer to, so you can see the carb content in most cat food brands out there

Please know that the b12 methyl is not the same as regular b12. You can get the one called Zobaline that is made for cats and it’s a pill that you have to crush and add to the food. Or you can get the Vitacost brand @Diane Tyler's Mom and I use that is more affordable and comes in capsules. I just open it up and mix the powder with Minnie’s food. It’s odorless and tasteless. Diane has the link to the website which I’m sure she’ll post for you soon!

hang in there! You’re doing awesome and it will ALL get easier. You’ll be a pro in no time

 

This is perfect you can add a comment or start a new thread up to you, as long as your thread doesn't get longer than 1 page. Another way to let us know you read our comments is to hit the “like” button. That way you don’t have to reply to all of them

 

Hi Shelley,

IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION

Please DO NOT change the food you are currently giving to Witness at this time.

Witness has started insulin treatment and you have only just started to home test. You need to first find out how Witness is doing on his current dose so that means you need to test regularly. A couple of members have a question mark about whether Witness' current dose might be a little too much for him at the moment so the sooner you can get BG tests before each insulin dose and around the time of day when the insulin is likely to take his BG to the lowest level you'll be able to make sure he's safe.

Reducing the amount of carbs a cat eats each day can dramatically and quickly reduce blood glucose levels. The insulin dose a cat is receiving before the start of a transition to lower carb food is very, very likely to be too high for its needs on a lower daily carb load so it needs to be dynamically reduced as the food transition progresses. More info about safely transitioning a diabetic cat to lower carb food can be found here.

Once you can better see the pattern of response Witness has to his insulin and the safety of his current dose, then you will be able to safely transition to diabetic-friendly foods if required.


Mogs
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For future reference, in Canada Fancy Feast Classics are called Fancy Feast pates. Same with Friskies. Just make sure they are the pates.

I believe the Vitacost has cheaper shipping than the Zobaline. It's hard to find methylcobalamine (A form of B12) that doesn't have sugar in it in Canada. @Wendy&Neko may know of some. She mentioned a local store in Vancouver.

Waving from Ontario.

 

You want to add more calories, not more carbs. Kitten food is usually higher in calories than adult food (Fancy Feast makes a few kitten flavors)

Think of diabetes like it's a wildfire....if you continue to pour gasoline on it (high carb food), you might still be able to get it under control, but it's going to take a lot more water (insulin). It makes a lot more sense to just stop the gasoline.

As his diabetes gets better controlled, the weight will come back. Check out China's Profile in my signature. You'll see a big difference in the "before" and "after".

 

Hi again, Shelley.

It's impossible to tell with just one reading how the dose is working.

Counterintuitively, high blood glucose levels can be due to either not enough insulin OR too much insulin. In the latter case the body releases counterregulatory hormones to push BG levels back up in order to protect the cat. Until we can help you to better determine the safety of Witness' current dose it is vital that you don't make any food changes.

I forgot to congratulate you earlier on getting your first successful test. Well done!

It helps with home testing to make it as easy and straightforward a process as possible, so associating the 'testing station' with positive experiences can help a kitty to relax more when being tested. Lots of members give diabetic-friendly freeze-dried meat treats (e.g. Purebites) after each attempt, whether or not it is successful. Tons of praise help too. Here's a video about training a cat to accept injections but the general techniques in it can be equally well applied to home testing:





Once you've chosen your test station, it should be a help to keep taking Witness over to it several times a day, giving him fusses and lots of praise, rewarding him with a freeze-dried meat treat and then lifting him up and moving him somewhere else. You could then try adding in some of the ideas from the video above. Be sure to give a shout out here for any help you need.


Mogs
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So, we haven’t changed his food at all from what the vet instructed us to give him, just added a little of the dry food because he’s so hungry. We also bought some Beef Temptation treats today - low carb (gave him 6 little ones after blood tests) all his blood tests today were pretty high - 29.8 1st thing this morning before insulin and food, then 24.8 the next hour and then we went to 3 hr intervals as suggested by Vets on the internet and by how much he was fighting us, so 3rd one at 9:35am was 17.4, 4th at 12:30pm was 10.7, 5th at 3:30pm was 13.5 and last one before we fed and gave him insulin was 22.6 all mmol/L. Pretty sure Witness needs even more insulin, but will not change anything until we talk to our vet on Monday. But part of those high #s are stress I think, but not sure. He definitely felt the poke at the #7, but I didn’t get blood even with that # if I didn’t hit the sweet spot. Poor kitty had a tough day, as did my husband and myself. So glad my 15 yr old daughter is not home or she would have taken her cat away from us!

 

Yes, I was just a bit panicked with that high#;?unfortunately they were high all day! I just put the #s on another person’s post that I replied too, hope you can all see it! only 1 reading in the middle of the day was 10.7 mmol/L, all the rest were pretty high.

 

We need to get you a spreadsheet. It's not vital right this second, but we're all used to using it and it's a very important tool. I'm really happy to help you set one up if you want!

Unfortunately, the Temptations treats are high carb, which is a shame since most cats go absolutely bonkers for them. Most of us use freeze dried treats like PureBites or even just a little piece of baked chicken. The only ingredient should be a protein source...then you're sure it's low in carbs.

 

Awwwwwww Tomorrow is another day. Its going to get better.

 

VitalEssentials is also another good freeze dried brand. Minnie loves the minnows

 

The Temptations said 17% fat and since the carbohydrates weren’t listed separately, assuming they are included in the fats. Whereas I’ll admit the dry food has 32% carbohydrates. Unfortunately we live in a smaller town and they don’t have a lot of choices at the Walmart. My husband will be going to a Pet Store this week when he goes into Edmonton. But would giving 6 of the small Temptations make a difference in his BG? Gave 15 of the dry food at 6:30am after the wet food. I guess what I’m wondering, is could these small amounts have given him high BGs today? I kind of got the impression from people that he needed to eat more because he was losing weight and so hungry.
And I would appreciate your help setting up the spreadsheet!

 

Send me a private message by clicking on my name and choosing "Start a conversation" so I can get some information.

We have seen cats here that just ate 2-3 pieces of kibble that raised their blood glucose 200 (11.1) points so yes, depending on how carb sensitive Witness is, it can make a big difference (which is also why we're pushing so hard to get the kibble out of the diet too)

 

Okay I blew it, the bag of dry food says 16% fats, not 32%!

 

What Witness needs to put on weight is calories, not necessarily carbs. Calories are usually listed on the cans of cat food. There are low carb/higher calorie commercial foods you can buy. You want low carb, under 10% carbs, and higher calories. The food list from Dr. Lisa that was linked earlier has both listed. A lot of the foods in that list are also available in Canada.

Not a store, but a brand. I found the New Roots brand of methyl B12 in capsules. Available on line and in some stores here.

Absolutely - a huge difference. I have seen caregivers give one Temptation and have it raise the blood sugar significantly. 6 is like an ice cream cone. For the short term, bake or boil a chicken breast and cut it into pieces for treats. Most manufacturers don't list the carbs - they don't want the ugly truth coming out. You should be able to get low carb canned foods (Fancy Feast and Friskies pates in most grocery stores or Canadian Tire - if your town is big enough for that. If you have a Canadian SuperStore, they have their own brand of low carb foods too - in this Canadian food list. (a bit out of date). Since that list was compiled there have been other brands come out too, such as Canada Fresh, but they might be only in pet food stores.

 

Okay, totally did not know that. There are so many different things on the Internet. I’ll be honest; I’m feeling quite overwhelmed with all the different information. I feel like we really blew it today in giving him dry food and the temptation treats. I’m thinking we should be redoing this “Glucose Curve” with no dry food and no temptations - does that make sense? How long until the dry food and temptations are out of his system? We didn’t give any tonight at the 6:30pm feeding.

 

24-48 hours

 

That’s actually scary and my hubby, who is a Biologist is struggling with understanding how just a few morsels of dry food could make that much difference. We know now and will do better, but I really feel like our Curve is no longer accurate because of the dry food and the temptations.
I think we need to do it again.

 

So there would be no point in doing a new curve until Monday?

 

I did send you a private message I believe. Did you get it?

 

Don't worry - every day is a do over with feline diabetes. We could all tell you funny stories about how we overreacted in the beginning - usually with carbs.

You don't need to do a full curve, but getting tests before giving shots is a good idea, to make sure it's safe. Getting a test somewhere in the middle of the cycle is also good data.

 

You should always test before shooting and Witness shouldn't have food for 2 hours before shot times so that when you test you get a number that's not influenced by food.

Get at least 1 test in between the shots...usually 5-7 hours after the AM shot and a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. If you can get 2-3 tests between cycles, that's even better. There's no such thing as too much data!

If you're doing an official curve, yes, I'd wait until Monday

 

Yes, waiting for your reply

 

The vet had told us to feed him a bit of our dry food (the Hills one) for the first week until he was switched over to the wet food. Then we added the dry food ourselves because he was so hungry in these last days, so totally our fault. I think we will have to do another curve maybe on Monday after the dry food and temptations are out of his system. I just feel these #s might be all wrong because of what we fed him.

 

Yes, we did the testing at the right times, but I just thought people were saying the dry food and temptations could have affected the #s? We tested at 6:30am before any food, also got 15 dry food kibble, then at 7:30am, then at 9:30am, then at 12:30pm and he got 6 temptations after that, 3:30pm and 6 temptations and then 6:30pm before food and insulin. So are you saying the only one affected by the food was the one at 7:30am?

 

I don’t see any message from you Chris, sorry, I see it says I’m in a conversation with you, but that’s all.

 

I wasn't talking about today's tests specifically. I was talking about "in the future". Today's numbers could have been influenced by the kibble and treats.

Going forward, if your shot schedule is going to be 6:30am/6:30pm then you want to take food away from him at 4:30am/pm so that when you test at 6:30, you get a "Pre-Shot" test that's not influenced by food.

In between the PS (Pre-Shot) tests, just feed small meals and test at least once about 5-7 hours after the AM shot and at least one "before bed" test on the PM cycle. As long as the food is low carb, it's not important if he eats for those tests.

Look for "Inbox"

 

We actually only feed him every 12 hrs at 6:30am and 6:30pm and everyone is saying not to change that. But that’s the reason I was thinking of doing a new curve on Monday, because of the Kibble & treats. So testing every 3 hrs with him only being fed twice a day shouldn’t affect any BGs.

 

I found inbox but it just says your name and my name and spreadsheet; what do I click on to see your message??

 

Nope, but I don't know where you're hearing that you should only feed twice a day. Most of us feed our own diabetic cats several times a day. I fed China every 3-4 hours. The only time she didn't get food was the 2 hours immediately before shot times.

Multiple small meals is easier on the pancreas than 2 big ones. That's why humans are told to eat 6 small meals a day instead of 3 big ones. It will also make Witness a lot happier and help him gain some weight back

 

I agree, but the Vet told us twice every 12 hrs and members just said not to change anything until we see how he’s doing. Sorry, when there’s different advice, it’s a bit hard to follow.

 

I think they were referring to not drastically changing the carb percentage of his food while giving 2U of insulin, not that you should only feed twice a day.

 

The vet actually requested we do a full Curve. He wanted us to test every hour for 12 hrs straight. Dave & I looked at some videos from veterinarians that said every 2 or 3 hours was fine. So I was thinking we would do another one on Monday every 3 hours or maybe every 4 hours, as long as he hasn’t had any food 2 hrs before a test is what the members have been saying, I think!
I can’t seem to find that Food list of Dr. Lisa’s for later when we do look at different food?

 

Oh okay. It’s actually 1.5 units twice a day of Lantus. The vet told us 2/3rds of a can twice a day, but we do give him a can because he’s so hungry. We really wanted to get this curve done and then ask the Vet if we could change his feeding to more often because he’s still hungry. When I told the Vet Tech we were giving a can each feeding, she said we were over feeding him.

 

My bad. Should have clarified.

Keep feeding the brands and varieties of foods Witness is currently eating. Witness has lost weight and because he's not yet regulated he still can't get the best out of what he's eating so it's OK to feed him some extra of the same food at other times of the day with the exception of the two hours before each preshot blood test, as Chris outlined above.

I hope that's a little clearer, Shelley. If you read through the catinfo.org article I linked to in one of my earlier posts above about safely transitioning to a low carb diet that gives a fuller explanation of why care is needed when changing foods for cats on insulin.


Mogs
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It was very common with the older insulins to feed a lot of food before the shot, so advice for those insulins was two meals a day. Lantus works differently and small meals are fine. Human diabetics also eat more frequent smaller meals - easier on the pancreas.

 

I agree with this (every four hours is too long).

As it's Witness' first curve I'd suggest testing every two hours.


Mogs
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You don't want to feed him 2 hours before the first test done in the AM for the curve.
You can feed him small portions of wet food during the curve.

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-chart.174147/

Here is the food chart

 

Yah we didn’t today and we won’t be on Monday either. We did the first blood glucose at 6:30am, so at that time he hadn’t had food since 6:30pm the night before. We are going to stick with the every 12 hrs until after the curve is done and then tell the Vet that Witness needs to be fed more often and more food. Which was our plan from the beginning but unfortunately we couldn’t get any blood the first 3 days we tried to do the curve. Then when I joined this blog, some people said he should be getting more food and that he should have treats after his blood tests. Unfortunately we didn’t know the treats were too high in carbohydrates. As for the Hills Science Diet Urinary & Hairball dry food, the Vet told us to keep feeding him that for a week with the new wet food, so we assumed that food was okay to be giving him a bit of, but since it has 17% carbohydrates, it’s not. There’s a lot to learn and it’s been a very stressful weekend. We’ll try the curve again on Monday or Tuesday, probably Tuesday since my daughter goes back to school then and it’s best to do this when she’s not here. Once we do the curve, we’ll look into getting him the different food some members on here have suggested and the freeze dried treats. We can’t afford the food from the vet because it’s very expensive and many people have suggested other low carb products. The Vet has given us 3 choices themselves, wet food, dry food or a mixture of both. Hoping when we change him to other food, it doesn’t affect his BGs too much, which is what my husband is concerned about.
Thanks for your help!

 

Hi Wendy, With regard to the B12 capsules -- do you just pill the cat (give the cat the pill) or do you open the capsule and put the B12 in the food?

Thank you!

 

You only give a portion of the pill. I looked at Zobaline and how much B12 was in it, and tried to give the same amount. Check out this post where a member did the same thing with Vitacost B12.

 

You open the capsule and mix it into food. It's tasteless so most cats eat it.

The dose of B-12 in Zobaline is 3000mcg so if you want the equivalent in the New Roots that Wendy linked above, you'd need to use 3 capsules per day.

 

ECID Some cats it wouldnt make a difference. That would have been my Trouble. I gave him temptations as his treat for getting poked. It never really impacted his numbers. Other cats are more carb sensitive.

 

Hi Here is the link https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-100-capsules-6

Alot of members use this , I use it myself you can buy it on line from Vitacost
Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 100 Capsules
It's 17.99 just be sure this is the one you buy
The only difference is the Zobaline has 200 mcgs of folic acid
So I buy the folic acid at the supermarket and crush it up and add it to the B-12
If you can't find the 200 mcg get the 400 mcg and cut it in half
The Vitacost brand is a capsule so just open it and pour the powder on the wet food
Has no taste, no need to crush it up
The Zobaline is 33.99 for 60 pills, too expensive
I saw a big improvement I'd say 3 months, could be sooner. One capsule a day.
Once you get your kitty better regulated the B-12 methyl will help


Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 100 Capsules

• SKU #: 835003001804
• Shipping Weight: 0.23 lb
• Servings: 100

 

I didn't know where to post this, hope it's ok.
I know a lot if you buy the B-12 Methyl from VitaCost like I do.
I'm pretty much stocked up on it
They sent me two different codes
12% off + Free Shipping if anyone wants to use them
Code. KABN7SHMP

Code. KAB4P8Z9B
They expire 10/31. and says Free Shipping only for the US but I think you will still get the 12% off

 

So if Witness is suppose to have 1 3/8 can of this Vet food, how much would you give if you were going to feed 3 or 4 times a day? We were told he needs the bigger amounts when he gets his insulin shot. So as you know, we blew it on Saturday when we were giving him some dry food and the temptations treats, so yesterday, we tried to get everything back to normal. The problem was last night and this morning, he’s not interested in eating the 2/3rds of a can all at once like he use to. Eats extremely slow and we actually have to coax him by letting him eat it off a spoon. He eats a bit and then just wants to lay down or wonder a way, which is so weird! Before we were even giving him the dry food or the temptation treats, he would just gobble up the wet food at 6:30am and 6:30pm and act like he was still hungry. Now he seems to be resorting back to how he use to eat when we were free feeding him; eat a bit, walk away and then come back and eat a little more, etc, etc. So Dave is struggling on making sure he eats at least 1/2 the food before giving the insulin. Something has definitely changed - not sure if we screwed him up by giving him the dry food and temptations or he’s losing interest in this wet food he liked or maybe he’s just stabilizing and doesn’t act like he’s starving anymore and just wants to eat slower. Doing the curve again tomorrow, so I guess we’ll see how his BGs are. Just hope he’s getting enough food in there for the insulin we are giving!

 

Not many cats like this food or like it for long.
As an experiment, get a couple of cans of low carb wet food and see what happens. I bet he will gobble it down.
If you are in the US, Fancy Feast Classic pates or Friskies Classic pates are easy to find. It must be the pate.

 

Sounds like hes feeling like his old self again. but he dose need to eat. sigh

 

We are in Canada, but I want to get the curve done tomorrow before we change anything. Then definitely we are going to look for the Fancy Feast Classic Pate that many have suggested.
Thanks for your help!

 

Waving from central Ontario.

Fancy Feast is not called Classic here. Just Pate.

 

Another good treat that I've found in Walmart is purely Fancy Feast its has only 1 ingredient meat.

 

The other thing I will need to check is that the food is also good for urinary issues. In 2017 Witness developed crystals and could not pass urine. He was in the vet hospital for 3 days and had tests, intravenous and then antibiotics when he came home. This time when we took him in and he was diagnosed with Diabetes, he also had a bladder infection so was antibiotics again for 2 weeks. Do you know if the Fancy Feast is good for the urinary issue as well? My husband just reminded me tonight that we have to have a food that is for the Diabetes and the Urinary issue.

 

What's good for the urinary issue is WATER....and canned food is 80% water. We've seen lots of cats here with a history of crystals (and eating that garbage K/D which has a lot of salt in it to make the cat's thirsty so they'll drink more water.....which makes zero sense....why not just feed them food with a higher water content??)

I can't think of one that ever had problems with crystals again once they were put on a canned or raw diet with extra water mixed in.

The Solution to Pollution is Dilution! Keeping as much water flowing through the kidneys and bladder are the key to keeping them as healthy as possible.

 

Makes total sense, so do you mean all the canned food is 80% water? When you say “garbage K/D”, are you talking about the dry food? Maybe that’s why he was drinking a bit more those few days that we were giving him some dry food. Not looking forward to the blood glucose curve tomorrow, but want to get it done so we can get some different food than this DM Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diet food that he doesn’t seem that fond of anymore! Still have about 10 cans left, but Oh well!
Thanks again for your help!

 

return it to the vet for refund. say cat stopped eating it.

 

You’re right; they did say it was a 100% refund! Thanks for reminding me!

 

Yes, most canned foods are around 80% water. (a cat's natural food is a mouse or bird..both around 80% water!)

And yes, dry food is dehydrating anyway. The K/D adds salt which makes it even worse.

 

Very helpful nugget of information, Chris. Thank you.


Mogs
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Sodium, salt...whatever you want to call it, is the cheapest easiest ingredient added to ALL processed foods, human AND animal. This is a good thing for big food corporations, not so much for consumers

 

Thanks, Diane! Just ordered and saved 12%

 

So I think Witness’s Blood Glucose Curve went well, although we were a bit concerned with the last #.
6:25am - 10.7 mmol/L, 135 grams wet food, and 1.5 units of Lantus Insulin at 6:48am
9:26am - 8.6 mmol/L
12:27pm - 7.1 mmol/L
3:17pm - 7.9 mmol/L
6:22pm - 6.7 mmol/L, 155 grams wet food, and 1.5units of Lantus Insulin at 6:42pm
Weight: 9.2 pounds

Not much change in his legs so I would really like to get the Vitamin B12 and get him started on it.
My husband is heading to the city on Friday and going to look for some new wet cat food, hopefully the Fancy Feast Classics Pate.

I sent an email to our Veterinarian with the Glucose Curve and numerous questions, so I’m hoping to hear back from them tomorrow. Really want to feed him more than twice a day!

Sorry I haven’t had a chance to edit the spreadsheet yet, but I will get it done. Just wanted to give you an update on what his Curve #s were.
I’m just going through all the replies again and finding where people listed some appropriate snacks because I want to get some of those too. Also downloaded Dr. Lisa’s food list.

It’s absolutely amazing how much I’ve learned from you all already and everything didn’t sink in the 1st time I read the replies, so I’m going through all of them again.

 

Tootsie’s recovery from the neuropathy is amazing! I want to get the B12 and believe there are some suggestions later in this thread where I can order it. We live in Alberta, Canada.
Also would like to feed him more often than every twelve hours. Just waiting to hear back from our Veterinarian. I’ve learned so much already from everyone on here! Thank you so much!!

 

The one thing I find a little confusing is why you say pick up the food 2 hours before insulin? Our Veterinarian told us to make sure Witness eats majority of his meal before we give him the insulin shot? He said if you gave it before he eats, it can then be dangerous if he refuses to eat too much. Also, what does “TR” mean? And on the spreadsheet, are all the +1, +2, +3, etc meaning 1 hour after the morning insulin shot, 2 hrs after the morning shot, etc? Thank you for your help!