New Member - Dosing Check In

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Brenna & Charleston

Member Since 2022
Hello,

Charleston and I (Brenna) had introduced ourselves on the Facebook forum last Saturday (11/5) and have finally made it to our first post on the FDMB. We have been so appreciative of the warm welcome of this community! <3

Charleston is a ~11yo, gorgeous orange tabby who is blind. My husband and I adopted him in August 2021, after he had been found on a road in NM severely beaten up--the rescue thinks an animal attacked him. He is my ever vigilant coworker and study partner full of sooo much love. Since we have had him, the poor fellow has had a rodeo of health occurrences (CKD diagnosis, removal of his remaining eye (glacoma), removal of his remaining teeth (stomatitis), high blood pressure (regulated w/ Amplodipine), hip arthritis, discovery of a heart murmur, and now diabetes). All that being said, he remains the gentlest, loving spirit I have ever known who finds joy in Colorado sunshine, walking through grass and crinkly paper, and snuggling galore.

With diagnosis on Friday, 11/4, I immediately started home testing on Saturday with the ReliOn Premier meter. Our vet still stands firm on the viewpoint of fasting for 12 hours and feeding two massive meals with the high recommendation of kibble (massive for Charleston, I've only ever seen him be able to eat ~65 kcal in one sitting). I did a trial of the vet's recommendation for one cycle and will not be continuing with the 12 hr fasting given the stress it put Charleston through. I am quietly searching for another vet to work with (but have also shared a link to my spreadsheet with our current vet. Perhaps our data will speak for itself and we can continue onward working together--this will be determined later this week). I am maintaining a LC Wet diet and feed throughout the day (at PS, as well as what seems to be averaging to +4/+8). Charleston is underweight so I typically feed when he is hungry. Of important note, at diagnosis, I did switch Charleston to an LC wet diet. Prior to diagnosis, he typically had kibble to graze on throughout the night and had been eating Royal Canin Renal D, T, & S for the past two months (he commonly shifts what he likes to eat as is typical for a cat with CKD).

The vet asked us to administer Glargine if he only eats 1/2 of the PS meal (67.5 kcal) or 1.0u for a full meal PS (137.0 kcal). As mentioned earlier, Charleston will not eat large amounts in one go--however, he has been meeting his daily calorie needs by feeding throughout the day. To be safe and given the diet change to LC, I have been following the lower dosing direction of 0.5u while feeding throughout the day. (On a sidenote, my husband and I had been car traveling with Charleston the week prior to diagnosis. I can't help but wonder if we accidentally stressed his poor body to the limit and contributed to high glucose).

My question: I am trying to remain calm and patient. With Charleston having CKD, I would like to be as proactive as possible to prevent kidney damage from high glucose. He has not had ketones in his urine. I conducted a curve on Day 5 and Day 6 after first administration of insulin (missed one data point on accident for Day 6). Given his consistency in the 200's and the vet's prescribed desire of 1.0u as a full dose (2x daily), what is your experienced opinion on if I were to bump his insulin dose up to 0.75u? Am I acting too soon? Perhaps I need to give the diet change and data collection more time?

With appreciation,

Brenna & Charleston
 
Hi Brenna and Charleston,

welcome!!! :bighug::bighug::bighug:

You’re already doing so much right and I’m really happy to hear you’re not following the vet’s old fashioned advice and feeding him as much as he wants right now. It took 3 vets for me to get to a good one for Minnie and still, I stopped following her advice on dosing once I joined this forum. Diabetic cats can’t process the nutrientes in food efficiently so they eat but are still hungry. They also burn calories just by peeing since there’s sugar in their urine. And low carb food is def the best. What LC food are you feeding him? Is is CKD friendly?

Great job on the spreadsheet and signature. You only have 5 days worth of data but the dose change would also depend on what dosing method you choose to follow. SLGS or TR. with TR you make dose adjustments more frequently. I think increasing to .75 given his mostly higher numbers would be fine, but tagging a few others to get a consensus @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @tiffmaxee @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Suzanne & Darcy

Bless you for rescuing this sweet handsome boy!!!
 
As Ale noted, you have done your homework and you're doing a great job! If things with your vet don't work out, you may want to see if you can find a feline specialty practice in your area. Given all of Charleston's medical comorbidities, a feline specialty vet may be a good option.

If you don't mind, I want to suggest a bit more homework. There are a series of sticky notes at the top of the Lantus board. I don't recall offhand whether this information has been included in the files on the FDMB Facebook group and if so, you may have already seen it. If not, it's great information on how Lantus works, dosing methods, etc.

Depending on where in the continuum of CKD your cat is, there are several low carb foods that are also low in phosphorus. If the CKD is more advance, a phosphorus binder will give you considerable flexibility with regard to food choices.

The vet's advice regarding shooting half a dose can be problematic. Lantus forms microcrystals that deposit in the fat tissue and slowly dissolve over the course of the cycle. A small amount remains deposited and creates a steady state that gives Lantus its long duration and gentle action. If the dose is changed at each shot time, the insulin depot never stabilizes. There are obviously times when it may not be feasible to give a full dose but you should be aware of the pros and cons of how you're dosing.

FWIW, I never fed my cat two large meals. She was very food motivated and would eat whatever I put in front of her and then try to eat my other cat's food. It was better to feed several small meals to balance out the effect of the insulin through nadir. The way your vet is advising you to feed your cat makes sense with a shorter acting insulin but not with Lantus. Lantus onset typically doesn't begin until +2. Spreading the food out makes much more sense.
 
Thank you for rescuing Charleston ♥weruva has low carb and low phospherous wet food
With weruva foods
You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts.
https://weruva.com


For diabetic cats and cats that have elevated kidney values
You want to feed low phosphorous wet food

When you go to the weruva site and click on one of the pics of the food , click on Detailed Nutrition information that is under guaranteed analysis to the left
YOU WANT CARBS UNDER 10% AND PHOSPHORUS IDEALLY LOW 200's OR LESS

Here is a list that one of our members posted ,if Charleston likes pates

I don't know if the BFF play weruva pate is on the list your looking at or not. I wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
BFF play chicken Checkmate
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken cherish
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 135%
BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 136%
BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 149%
BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 154%
BFF play chicken & duck destiny
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 165%
BFF play chicken & beef best buds
Protein 33%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 171%
Don't know if your kitty likes pate but here is the list of the BFF line.
 
@Brenna & Charleston
Hi I was reading the information in your profile which you said
Current Medications:
  • Glargine Insulin (per the vet, on a 12 hr fasting diet, if he eats 1/2 meal -->0.5u, if he eats a full meal, 1.0u). Since we are not following the fasting diet, I have stuck to 0.5u thus far though this seems likely to need to be increased slightly.
  • .625 mg amplodipine x 1 daily (for blood pressure)
  • .25 mg Adequan x1 every two weeks (arthritis)
  • up to 1/8 tsp /day of psyllium husk as needed (constipation)
Medical Conditions:
  • HIV +
  • CKD Stage 3
  • High blood pressure (regulated)
  • II/VI heart murmur, tricuspid regurgitation (told to monitor, no medication prescribed)
  • Stomatitis - has had all teeth removed
  • Blind (bilateral enucleation) - lost one eye due to past trauma and the other in Feb 2022 due to severe glaucoma
  • Unknown if Charleston has ever had corticosteroids.
I would also add the following to your signature also so members ate aware of this :cat:
  • 625 mg amplodipine x 1 daily (for blood pressure)
  • .25 mg Adequan x1 every two weeks (arthritis)
  • up to 1/8 tsp /day of psyllium husk as needed (constipation)
Medical Conditions:
  • HIV +

  • High blood pressure (regulated)
  • II/VI heart murmur, tricuspid regurgitation (told to monitor, no medication prescribed)
  • Stomatitis - has had all teeth removed
 
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Thanks so much everyone! :) Thank you Sienne--I will definitely read up on those sticky notes!

For Charleston's diet, we have been defaulting to a recipe we had requested from a vet nutritionist at Ohio State University (recipe noted below) based on Charleston's weight, medical history, etc. It was focused towards the CKD low phosphorous needs but also seems to fit the diabetic low carb need as well. We had attempted feeding Charleston the diet when we received it in June, but at the time he was intolerant of the needed additional supplements (Balance IT K). Upon the diabetes diagnosis, I decided to try again. Thankfully he's digging it! :cat: (For now at least, lol. I have reached back out to the nutritionist to see if we should update/adjust anything such as calorie increases as well as asked for an alternative beef recipe for when he likely becomes disinterested in the chicken.) Thanks so much for the food lists! I had downloaded the CKD/Diabetes food list from the Facebook page and have it stuffed in my bag next time we run to the store. I'll add these if they are not on there. He's been gobbling up the chicken for now, but it's always wonderful to have backups for those odd days.
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Hi Brenna and Charleston and welcome to the forum!:):bighug:
What a wonderful person you are rescuing Charleston and giving him a living home. Poor boy really has had a hard life but he won the lottery when you found him. I’m sure he is feeling so much better now he is having his health issues treated and has a living home.

I agree with multiple small meals throughout the 2 cycles. I don’t even feed any of my non diabetic cats just two meals a day. They much prefer several smaller meals and are much more content.
HERE is a food list that lists the phosphorus levels in the food. If you look for foods that have 200 mg phosphorus/ 100 kcals they should be suitable. I know you have a good recipe but just thinking for other backup options for those days when he may want a change.

Your signature is very informative…thanks!
Keep asking lots of questions as we are very happy to help.
Bron
 
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