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Jenn ~ Thomas

Jenn ~ Thomas

Member Since 2023
Hi! I am so glad to find this message board! I am at my whits end! We rescued Thomas 5 years ago at 3 years old. He was a happy fat cat, 25 pounds. He seemed to be a scaredy cat as far as loud sounds. We also had a 3 year old boy who was and still on the go all the time! I purchased the plug ins to calm him which seemed to work.
He started peeing next to cat box. I changed numerous types of boxes. Still peeing. My cat was diagnosed with uti 3 years ago and medicine stopped him from peeing next to cat box.
Fast forward 2 years because all was good. We tried to change his diet to soft food because I had been told that was healthier for him. He liked dry food, no people food and no soft. We tried and tried numerous types of soft food. A couple months later we rescued a 9 month old German Shepard. I wanted both of them to be on a raw diet (but cooked meat). Dog loves it cat was a no go. He then started peeing by the cat box again. Took him to vet. UTI, this time the glucose was high. Vet did a frutosamine?? test and it came back that he has diabetes. We gave him 1 unit twice a day, then 2, when it needed to go to 3 the vet changed from vetsulin to Lantus. We did that for a month and he was still peeing on floor and drinking lots of water. Took him to new vet. I’m thinking he is stressed. He lost weight because of trying to change his food. That stressed him out because obviously he likes to eat. Than the dog. The new vet put him back in vetsulin at 4 units twice a day. Still no change. Then 6 units, no change. The glucose curve was still high so the vet said he wanted quit playing around and upped the dose to 12 units twice a day. He has been doing this for 2 weeks and is currently at the vet doing a glucose curve.
Any advice would be appreciated!
my questions are
1. Is this normal for 12 units 2x a day?
2. If he stays on 12 units, is there a less expensive brand of food than what the vet has? He said he has to be on Hills Prescription W/D multi benefit. The insulin only lasts just over a week, it’s getting expensive between vet bill, food and insulin.
 
12 units is a huge dose and I’m sorry to say that you should have stayed with Lantus. Vetsulin is also called caninsulin because it was made for canines who have a much lower metabolism than cats so your cat is not protected the full 12 hours. In addition, here are the guidelines from the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of diabetes in both dogs and cats. the AAHA no longer recommends Caninsulin/Vetsulin for treating feline diabetes.

dry food is too high carbs for a diabetic cat. The only 2 low carb dry foods are Dr Elseys and Young Again Zero Carb, but I would not transition him out of the food he’s eating now if you’re not able to home test because on that huge a dose, you’d likely end up with a hypo in your hands. We can help you if you’re willing to learn how to home test. You’d also save you the trips to the vet since you can do the curves at home.

Unfortunately most vets do not know a lot about feline diabetes….they have many animals to look after and they all have different diseases.

With a diabetic cat you need:

  • A low carb wet diet that is 10% carbs or under. Most of us use around 4-7% carbs
  • A suitable insulin such as Lantus or Prozinc which are long acting, more gentle insulins than the old insulins.
  • We recommend hometesting the blood glucose with a human meter…it is not necessary to use a pet meter which is expensive to run and is no better. It will keep your kitty safe and you will know how the dose is working for your kitty. Only testing every so often will not tell you what is happening in between those times and an awful lot can happen in even a day.
  • HELP US HELP YOU has information about the spreadsheet, signature and hypo box which you will need to be able to look after your beloved kitty properly

A word of warning again…don’t change the food you are feeding at the moment over to the low carb food until you are testing the blood glucose because a change over can drop the BGs by up to 100 points and we don’t want you to have a hypo on your hands.

We are happy to help you with setting up the spreadsheet, sorting out what food to buy, how to transition safely to a low carb diet, how to learn to home test and more

This is an excellent site for diabetic cats…it has been around for more than 25 years and has very experienced people to help you.

Keep asking lots of questions!
 
Hi Jenn I totally agree with everything Ale has told you. I think you should have stayed on Lantus also. There is generic lantus that most members use now because Lantus is expensive in the US. Thomas is probably getting to stressed out at the vets.
Sounds like your vet is upping Thomas's dose by what his pre shot is
You adjust the dose by how low cats drop during each 12 hour cycle called the nadir ( lowest point during the cycles )

When Thomas was on lantus were you using the pens ? With lantus we buy U-100 syringes with the half unit marking because we adjust the dose by 0.25 units at a time, with the pens you can only adjust by whole units
12 units twice a day is a huge dose.
If you can switch back to lantus ,here is info on the generic lantus
Most members get the generic you can get generic/biosimilar glargine at very reasonable prices using GoodRx coupon. Most members use the generic because Lantus is to expensive.
https://www.goodrx.com/lantus?label...d-pens-of-100-units-ml&quantity=1&slug=lantus
Make sure that the Match your prescription pull down menue says generic glargine 1carton of 5 3ml pens.
There is no wait time test, feed, give insulin
Lantus usually doesn't kick in until 2 hours after the shot

We buy the pens but use the syringes to draw out the insulin because if you use the pen you can only adjust by full units ,we adjust the doses by 0.25 units
If you do switch back to lantus the generic you will need
U -100 SYRINGES WITH HALF UNIT MARKINGS
I can suggest a few if you would like


Also
The 5 pens will last about a year, we use the pens just like a vial, you would just insert the syringe it the gray rubber stopper on the pen and draw out your insulin
Its generic lantus



Or this one also

I see some members will call CVS, Rite Aid, Costco, Walgreen's, to get the price for 5 pens
Posted by another member
One members posted this
. I paid $175 for a box of 5 pens at Walmart pharmacy, but GoodRX coupon says you can get it for around $90 if you have a Rite Aid pharmacy near you.

Just call around for the best price

A member just posted this
Allie was using the Lantus and I just switched to the generic and using the GoodRX I got 5 pens for $81.30 at Walgreens.

GoodRX has a 1-800 number to assist you in using their services to get your pets prescriptions filled if the pharmacy gives you any issues.

I think I found it for you
GoodRx / Customer service

1 (855) 268-2822


Most of us use human meters that's what our numbers are based on
Here is the link for the meter and test strips so you don't have to search for them
Relion Premier Classic Meter at Walmart for 9 dollars
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-CLASSIC-Blood-Glucose-Monitoring-System/552134103

The tests strips are 17.88 for 100
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-100-Count/575088197

I encourage you to start home testing , it's the only way to keep Thomas safe
It's really not that hard .
I'm going to give you the links to read on Vetsulin and Lantus
Keep asking us questions
There are many experienced members here and in my opinion they know more than most vets do
They have helped me get Tyler in remission with me taking their advice.
He's been in remission since 1-24-21 knock in wood

Read about Vetsulin
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/beginners-guide-to-caninsulin-vetsulin.231587/

Then read all the yellow stickys about Lantus
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/
 
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Welcome to FDMB.

One of the things we strongly encourage is that caregivers learn to home test their cat's glucose levels. If you take a moment to consider, there isn't a human whose doctor hasn't told them they need to test their blood glucose level. You have no way to know what the insulin is doing to the numbers if you don't test. If you look at the spreadsheets that are attached to our signatures, you will see that glucose levels vary. They are not constant throughout the day let alone from day to day. What may be a perfectly safe amount of insulin today, could cause hypoglycemia tomorrow. We prioritize keeping your cat safe and with a large dose of insulin coupled with an insulin (i.e., Vetsulin) that can dramatically drop numbers, home testing is crucial.

As others said, 12u is a large dose is your cat does not have another medical condition that is causing Thomas to need that much insulin. Diana suggested getting a glucometer at Walgreens. If that's convenient, they make a good meter. Pretty much any human meter will be fine if there's not a Walmart near you. You will need a meter, test strips, and lancets. The lancets should be around 26 - 28 gauge. It takes a little while for the capillary bed in your cat's ear to develop. Once it does, you can switch to a thinner lancet (e.g., 30 gauge).

This is a link to our resources on home testing.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies! Sorry for the delayed response. My dad had quintuple bypass so now I am juggling caring for him (my mom passed away a year ago) and dealing with my cat. I own/ operate my own mobile grooming business so that helps. However if I am off I don’t get paid. Unfortunately this is causing financial/mental stress. Things are tight as it is with the economy the way it is.

I will do anything to make Thomas good but feel like I am spending so much money and nothing is changing.
He has been on 12 units 2x a day for 2 weeks now. He went in last Friday (when I posted initial post) for glucose curve. He got insulin at 615 am and they said his number was high at 830, then tapered off through out the day. At 5pm it started going up. This is the first time it wasn’t high all day. I know nothing about insulin, glucose numbers etc. Does this mean 12 units is good? He doesn’t act any different at home. He still pees by the cat box, and drinks a lot of water. We were out late and he didn’t get his insulin on time and it was more then 3 hours so we skipped it. Still no difference in the way he acts.

Honestly I wish I would have never tried to get him to switch to wet food a year ago. He was a happy fat cat. He was miserable when I was trying to get him to eat wet food, he dislikes it, as well as people food. He lost a lot of weight because of this. Then started peeing on the floor. Then the vet said he had uti, then vet said diabetes. He lost weight because of the food issue, and stressed. Then we adopted a German Shepard, I’m sure that caused him stress. They play together now.
 
I’m sorry to hear about your dad and I wish him a smooth recovery.

Please read all the information we’ve already given you. Caninsulin is not a good insulin for cats neither is a high card dry food diet. unless he’s insulin resistance, 12 units is a massively huge dose. Most cats are on under 5 units, which is less than 1/2 his dose. If you want help your cat, please read up on all the info available to you here, switch him to a recommended insulin for cats, transition him out of the dry food or at least put him on a low card dry food, both of which I posted above, and start home testing him daily. It’s will save you a lot of money not having to do curves at the vet.
 
Thank you everyone! I have ordered the glucose monitor, lancets and test strips. I will pick up tomorrow.

What other issues could Thomas be having? The only thing the vet said he could have instead of diabetes was Cushings. Would that make sense? Is there anything else?

How do I handle my vet? Monitoring at home isn’t an issue however I will need a prescription to change to the generic Lantus correct? and what amount to use?

I have 1 day left of the vetsulin so I will need to call my vet tomorrow. I do have half a bottle of Lantus in the fridge. I assume it is best to use that instead of getting new vetsulin? Should I ask what dose I should use?
As far as food. I should wait until I see his numbers correct? I have to buy a bag of food tomorrow as well. I keep thinking by the next time the food and insulin is gone I will have something different figured out and hopefully going in the right direction.
 
Without having data I honestly do not know what dose would be appropriate. What are you currently feeding him? Have you tried fancy feast pates which are low carb? Many cats like it. There are just a few low carb dry foods if he won’t eat any wet foods. You don’t need vet food so switching food will save you money.

Also, curves at the vet are often falsely elevated due to stress. I am going to suggest dose with some other senior members and get back to you. Has your vet run a fructosamine which is a blood test that gives an average bg over the past two weeks or so?

I hope your dad has a speedy recovery. It’s hard caring fur a sick parent and cat. I know first hand. That’s why if you can start a car appropriate insulin and diet it will get easier.
Do you have the lantus?
 
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My cat started on Caninsulin, but it doesn't last long in most cats, so we switched to Lantus, which was much better. Like the others, I'd recommend it over Caninsulin/Vetsulin. And like the others, I'd strongly recommend learning to home test your cat. We can help you do that, and it can save your cat's life.

We had another fat cat here a while ago that was on W/D dry food - he was on 13 units. That food really is too high in carbs. He was a rescue. When the new caregiver switched him to low carb wet food, I think the Fancy Feast, his dose went down to about 2 units. 12 units is not a normal dose, unless a cat is either on really high carb food, or has a secondary medical condition.
Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA) said:
Some cats do have insulin resistance and need a high dose but it’s not very common and there’s a test for that
Click to expand...
The recent research shows about 25% of diabetic cats has a condition called acromegaly, that can cause the need for higher doses. I would not call it uncommon. My kitty had both acromegaly, which is caused by a benign tumour on the pituitary that causes excess growth hormone to be produced - which in turn causes the diabetes, and another condition called IAA or insulin auto antibodies, which is sort of like an allergy to the injected insulin.

I too thought a new furbaby might have stressed my cat and caused the diabetes or meant she needed a higher dose. I was wrong, it was the pituitary tumour.
 
Thank you for your replies! I am so thankful for help with all of this!! I picked up the glucose monitor after work today. Do I need to test every 2 hours or daily? I will look at the information posted above to learn how to do the test. I think there is a spreadsheet as well?

I am so confused with how Thomas reacts to insulin/food. Regarding the insulin. How would a cat react if he didn’t need insulin and received it? Needs insulin and doesn’t receive it? Honestly a while back he missed a dose and didn’t act any different. He is now on 12 and doesn’t act any different. Food- there was a post not to change food because he could go into hypothermia. I have been away taking care of my dad for 4 days. My boyfriend has been taking care of Thomas. I had put kitten food in one of the vet w/d bags because it has a ziplock. The vet food has run out so he fed him the kitten food from the vet food bag. I guess he didn’t notice that it was a different shape again, he still doesn’t act any different. Not lethargic at all. Actually been more cuddly. He hasn’t been on my lap while watching tv for a while.

This is the food he has had for the past 4 days. Purina Kitten Chow Nurture Chicken Recipe Dry Cat Food for Kittens, 14 lb Bag • HIGH IN PROTEIN FOR MUSCLE SUPPORT:

since he isn’t having a bad reaction should I start giving him the fancy feast? Classic only correct?

Also I found the testing for the fructosamine, it was 698. This was back in February.
 
You can’t go by behavior that’s why we test. You should do at least 4 tests a day but no need to do a curve every day.

kitten food is probably even higher in carbs. We say to not transition out of the high carb foods until you can and are home testing because it can bring his bg considerably lower by 100 points or more making that massive dose no longer safe. I know you’re dealing with a lot right not but I’d strongly suggest you try to read the yellow sticky notes on the Lantus forum especially the one about the 2 dosing methods we use. Since you’re feeding dry food too, you’d have to follow the SLGS method: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/
 
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I wouldn't make any food changes, until you get some experience with testing his blood sugars. Then you can start a gradual change in good. Right now he may be needing those high carbs to keep him safe. And you'll likely find it takes a little while to get the testing routine down. Start with getting familiar with testing, then once we have some data, we can help you with the food change.

This post tells you how to do the spreadsheet. New? How You Can Help Us Help You!
We have people here who can help you out with that if you find it challenging.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I wouldn't make any food changes, until you get some experience with testing his blood sugars. Then you can start a gradual change in good. Right now he may be needing those high carbs to keep him safe. And you'll likely find it takes a little while to get the testing routine down. Start with getting familiar with testing, then once we have some
Click to expand...
Wendy is absolutely right, give yourself some time to get confident with testing, once you've got that, then start making the food change slowly.

The high carb food may well be what is keeping his blood sugar high and why his insulin needs are greater at the moment. Swapping to a LC diet suddenly could be unsafe.

Take it one step at a time.
 
Ok I will not change to food yet. I will read the info on testing and try it tonight when I get home.



My vet office called this morning and said they only use vetsulin. I told her about this board and the article on using vetsulin on cat and that would like to use Lantus. Again she said they only use vetsulin. I said this is the life of my cat and my sanity at stake here. The doctor that I see at the office will be calling me later.
 
It may be that they are not familiar with lantus and vetsulin is the only insulin they sell out of the office. As long as the vet will agree to give you a script for lantus, you can certainly get the help you need on dosing here.

I had a similar issue, my vet prescribed vetsulin first, but before buying the meds I did my research here and I asked her for a lantus script which she gave me, even though she did say she wouldn't be able to help me with dosing.

Hope you get good news from your vet, once they've read the article.

If you don't, have you got another vet you could use that would be amenable to prescribing Lantus?
 
I also got the "Caninsulin is what we use here" message. Thankfully I saw a locum vet one time and he told me Lantus was better - which I knew already, so the switch was done. Once I printed off the Lantus dosing method I was going to use and showed my vet a copy of the data I was collecting, she was fine with me doing the dosing.
 
We base the starting dose of Lantus on how the dose of the existing insulin is doing. We don’t know that yet. I would gather data on the Vetsulin dose, while you are getting comfy with home testing, then we can look at insulin switch and/or food switch. One change at a time, for safety’s sake.
 
Ok so the doctor called me back. he pretty much said that the last glucose curve, which was last Friday looked better than the ones before. Numbers were finally going down. He also stated that they only use vetsulin. I told him about the information on the board and he said you can find anything on the Internet and if you have 12 people you will get 12 different answers. He also said that I should do a wellness blood test. He seems like a nice guy but at the same time I feel like I am buying cat food from the vet and insulin so it’s a money maker. I purchased a bottle of vetsulin and a 4 pound bag of cat food since I am out of both. I will read the information on glucose testing now. Just not enough minutes in a day….. I’m exhausted and need sleep but obviously need to take care of my cat.

I assume that I will do the glucose numbers and based on that start introducing the fancy cat wet food into his diet? Then change insulin? I am going to call another vet. I think there is a cat only vet in Tampa. So that I can change to Lantus.

Again I thank everyone for your help!!
 
I'm just in shock when I hear about vets who say they only use Vetsulin. It makes me feel really lucky to have the vet I do. When Snickers was first diagnosed years ago (before her remission) our vet explained all the different options to me, and the first thing she said was that she recommends Lantus, as it has the highest success rate. She did not try to push it on me, just gave me her personal experience with it. And most certainly did not try to push Vetsulin.

Even this time around, now that Snickers has (hopefully temporarily) fallen out of remission, my vet still recommended Lantus but also made sure to let me know about the newer generic Lantus, glargine. She always gives me options, then her opinion, then lets me decide. I'm sorry your vet is so stubborn, and, it appears, not up to date on their information regarding feline diabetes. I hope you can find a vet who will listen to your concerns more.
 
I think you should send him this on email guidelines from the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of diabetes in both dogs and cats. the AAHA no longer recommends Caninsulin/Vetsulin for treating feline diabetes. Or you need to be looking at this when you talk to him. Pull it up on your phone and show it to him. He clearly got defensive and that’s not the type of vet who is going to be willing to work with you.

It’s not people on the internet saying it, it’s the AAHA. There’s a big difference.
 
Hello! I came back from my dads last night so I could be home today to test Thomas for the glucose curve. He usually gets the insulin around 615 630 during the week and 7-8 on weekends. He got the 12 units of insulin at 7. I just did his test and it said 88. 850 am. Now I do every 2 hours?

Actually I just looked behind me to see who was drinking water the German Shepherd or Thomas. It’s Thomas. I’m so confused. It’s a low and good number right?? So why drinking so much water???

I did also buy fancy feast classic pate so I can be ready to slowly switch whenever it’s safe to do so.

Thanks again everyone! I’m exhausted but feel like there is nothing but positive ahead for my dad and Thomas!!
 
He’s still not regulated that’s the reason for the drinking. Do you have the spreadsheet set up yet? 88 is a great number but how long after the shot was that? You need to monitor please as he may go too low if that was only 2 hours after the shot. I’d try give him a low carb snack or some food now to try to slow down the drop. Can you please retest sooner than 2 hours?

Do you have honey or Karo? if he goes under 50, you’ll want to run some on his gums.

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)
@Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee
 
Yes I started a spreadsheet, this is the information so far today.

7am - food (Hills rx diet w/d multi benefit dry food)
715 am - insulin 12 units Vetsulin
850 am 88 glucose
1050 am 47 glucose

He isn’t lethargic at all. He actually ran into kitchen when I got up to put lansit in container. So I thought maybe that is why it’s low is because he needed to eat.

Ale, I just read your message. I am about to do another test at 1250. If it’s low should I give him the fancy feast as a snack?
 
He went under 50 so please make sure he eats high carbs foods and test again

you need to keep giving him food to slow down the drop. Even if he’s not acting like he’s going through a hypo it could change in minutes. I’d do the honey or Karo as well. Anything under 50 is a take action number as he’s at risk of a hypo
 
Also he earned a reduction by going under 90 so his new dose starting tonight should be 11.75. Do you have 1/2 units marked syringes? As we suspected, I think the only thing keeping him safe right now at that dose is the dry food
 
We also don’t know what the preshot value was he may have already been too slow to start off on the 12 units dose. Honestly, I don’t know if others will agree with me, but if this was my cat until I gathered more data, I go back to half this dose to be safe. I wouldn’t give him more than 6 units moving forward.

please check here often and post updates. We can only help you if you read our advice. Each time you test, you should be giving him food to slow down the drop. You do not want to wait till his showing signs of a hypo, you want to prevent that from happening because at that point, it can be too late or it means a trip to the er. Now that he’s gone under 50, it’s imperative that you bring his bg back up by giving him honey or Karo and high carb food
 
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I'm concerned. First, start testing every 20 minutes.

If I'm understanding, the pre-shot test was 88 at 7:00 AM. You gave 12u of Caninsulin at 7:15. Approximately 3.5 hours later, your cat's BG is 47.

You need to be doing the following:
  • Depending on how carbohydrate sensitive your cat is, feed approximately a teaspoon or less of gravy from high carb food or high carb food or syrup/honey only. (If you have a cat with GI issues, using a couple of drops of syrup plus low carb food is an alternative.)
  • Test again in 15 – 20 min. Depending on the numbers, give more HC food.
  • Repeat the above steps every 15 – 20 min. until your cat tests in the 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) or above range for 2 consecutive tests. Continue to feed in small amounts to keep numbers in a safe range. With Caninsulin, I'd want to see your cat closer to 80 or above.
  • Test in 30 - 40 min. and repeat the test and feed process until there are 2 consecutive tests where numbers are stable or rising.
  • Test in an hour and follow the same steps.
DO NOT become complacent. If numbers have risen after one or two tests, it’s important to continue testing. Numbers may bobble up and down as the HC food and/or Karo wear off. DO NOT get one test where your cat has risen from low numbers into the 50s and go to sleep or leave the house. You are putting your cat in a risky situation. When in doubt, leave HC food out.
Click to expand...

Please keep posting and keep us informed. If you're struggling to get your cat's numbers to come up, it may mean a trip to the emergency vet.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I'm concerned. First, start testing every 20 minutes.

If I'm understanding, the pre-shot test was 88 at 7:00 AM. You gave 12u of Caninsulin at 7:15. Approximately 3.5 hours later, your cat's BG is 47.

You need to be doing the following:


Please keep posting and keep us informed. If you're struggling to get your cat's numbers to come up, it may mean a trip to the emergency vet.
Click to expand...
I don’t think she got a preshot test. Gave insulin at 715 am and at 850 am he was at 88. We don’t know where he was when she gave him the shot. I’m equally concerned
 
Jenn Slade said:
Yes I started a spreadsheet, this is the information so far today.

7am - food (Hills rx diet w/d multi benefit dry food)
715 am - insulin 12 units Vetsulin
850 am 88 glucose
1050 am 47 glucose
Click to expand...
Just as a reminder, you need to check your cat's blood glucose BEFORE you give insulin. The first check of the day should be their AMPS, or morning pre-shot. The reason for this is that it's dangerous and potentially life threatening to your cat if you don't.

Imagine that your kitty's blood sugar began as 48 instead of 88, and you gave them a shot without checking first. Their blood sugar would already be low to begin with, and you're just making it lower on top of that. It can cause them to have a hypo attack, which is life threatening. To know whether it's safe to give insulin, you need to know the pre-shot number. I hope that makes sense.
 
Yes the syringe has 1/2 markings.

No I didn’t do a pre shot test. My boyfriend has been giving him shots on weekends. He thought he was helping by giving him his shot and letting me sleep. So I started everything when I woke up.

7am - food (Hills rx diet w/d multi benefit dry food)
715 am - insulin 12 units Vetsulin
850 am 88 glucose
1050 am 47 glucose
11:10 am food
11:20 am peed on tile next to cat box
12:40 pm food
1:15 pm 51 glucose (a little late, was reading everyone’s post)

I added the peeing to my list because this is the daily issue that started this whole thing. He had UTI. Incase this gives any lightbulb moments for anyone with reasons/ideas.

since it’s still low I need to give Karo? I will need to go to store to get some. My step daughter is here on weekends and evidently used it all. I didn’t know we were out.

Since it’s so low anyway could I start feeding a little of the fancy feast classic with the dry food?
 
With such a huge dose, you need to have your hypo tool kit ready. Do you have any honey?

you need to have those at hand as well as high carb foods like the FF gravy lovers. Even though the take action number is 50, I’d strongly recommend that with such a fast acting harsh insulin like caninsulin, you start intervening with food when you get any number under 70. The food will raise the bg and counter act the effect of the insulin to at least keep the numbers from dropping too fast.

we’ll need to see where he’ll be at this evening at preshot, but I’m very much inclined to having you reduce this dose significantly and not just by 1/4 units @Sienne and Gabby (GA) thoughts on the dose moving forward?
 
Once you’re done testing and getting him fed. It would be really helpful if you could set up your signature and link the spreadsheet you created to it.

Make sure your signature is up-to-date.
  • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback. There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
  • Add info we need to help you:
    • Caregiver & kitty's name
    • DX: Date
    • Name of Insulin (do not include dose or frequency)
    • Name of your meter
    • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
    • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
    • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
    • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
    • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
    • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.
 
Ok thank you! I will do the signature. I just got back from the store to get the Karo syrup.

I have been dealing with this last February. The insulin has been going up every month because the glucose curve was so high each visit to the vet. It was at 8 when the vet said to just increase to 12 a couple weeks ago. I’m so confused, why not change his food rather than the insulin? Does the vet just want income from the food and therefore the insulin?
 
I have to say I think you should go back to the vet that put him on Lantus. No good vet should ever raise a dose by more than 1 units at a time and they should certainly not be prescribing caninsulin to a cat. Unfortunately most vets do not know a lot about feline diabetes….they have many animals to look after and they all have different diseases and treatments. Vets also get their information about nutrition from the big cat food manufacturers so they are biased in what they recommend. Sadly, we see many cats here that come close to dying because of bad vets. I’m not saying they do it on purpose, but what they don’t know or the misinformation they give out puts cats’ lives at risk. You’re absolutely right and that’s why we advised you to start home testing so that you can safely transition him out of the high carb foods and onto low carb foods only. He also needs a better insulin.

I may have posted this before, but with a diabetic cat you need:
  • A low carb wet diet that is 10% carbs or under. Most of us use around 4-7% carbs
  • A suitable insulin such as Lantus or Prozinc which are long acting, more gentle insulins than the old insulins.
  • In addition to home testing

Luckily you are here now and we can help. The folks here have been handling feline diabetes for over 25 years so they know way more than your average vet.

Signature looks good thank you. If you can plug all the numbers you’re getting today and then add a link to the spreadsheet to your signature that will be even better so we can all follow and see the numbers you’re getting today. Thank god you’re doing a curve at home btw, at the vet cats are stressed and those bg numbers are usually inflated because of that. Also, the UTI can affect the bg
 
Most vets get very little training on nutrition. Most of what they end up getting is from the marketing reps from the pet food companies. Until very recently, the pet food manufacturers were selling "prescription" foods that were specific to many common veterinary conditions, including diabetes. There was a class action suit that the pet food companies lost that pointed out there is nothing that is medically necessary in most of the prescription foods that helps to control the targeted conditions. Diabetes is a good example. The dry food that was labeled as prescription food for diabetes is exceptionally high in carbohydrates. Now, those "diabetic" foods are labeled "dietetic" but I'm guessing most vets don't know about the class action suit and haven't noticed the change in labeling. They are also likely to be unaware of the amount of carbs in the food. I know my vet wasn't. I truly doubt that it's about what the food costs since you can now order it (with a vet's Rx) pretty much anywhere.

I've been here a lot longer than Ale. I've not seen that many cats that are "close to dying." I've also not seen many "bad vets." Vets are expected to know everything about every species of animal they treat. It's an exceptionally big ask if you think about how often humans are referred to specialists because of their age (pediatricians, gerontologists) or because of a particular condition -- and humans are only one species. It's even more challenging if you live in an area that doesn't have a large selection of vets or is near a vet school. It's a tough job and it's hard to stay current given the scope of what they're asked to do.

You have a choice. You can feed your cat anything that is under 10% carbs. Most people here feed their cat a diet that's in the 5% range. We have food charts that list the carbs. Under 10% is a low carb diet. However, you can't be giving your cat 12u of insulin and change the food over to low carb. Thomas will have a serious hypoglycemic event if you do.

As for insulin, there are two choices that are recommended by the American Animal Hospital Assn. I've linked their guidelines. Both glargine (Lantus) or Prozinc are recommended. Either is a good insulin. When the vet tried Lantus, a month is not a long enough time to assess the effectiveness of the insulin. The pharmacology of Lantus is very different than other types of insulin. The same rules do not apply.

Give some thought as to what you want to do. You may need to have a conversation with your vet since if you change insulin, you will need a prescription.

Let's see what Thomas' numbers look like closer to shot time. Can you post with information at least an hour before he's due for his evening shot? How many hours from now do you shoot? You're going to need to lower the dose but we need to give some thought as to how much you need to lower the dose.
 
The first vet I went to did vetsulin first and then he said he didn’t want to go over 2 units so he switched to Lantus. His numbers were still high and he seemed confused as to what to do. Honestly he was hard to understand as well so I switched vets. I will be calling vets offices tomorrow to see who seems to have a better understanding of diabetic cats.

I do have half a bottle of Lantus left, should I use that instead? Or wait until I have a vet that will prescribe so I don’t get stuck when he is out of insulin.

So…. I just did another test and it was 83. He has been sleeping since last test at 1:15 which was 51. That is good right since he hasn’t had any food or anything.
 
Yes, he’s going up and also Vetsulin already peaked so his numbers are probably going to keep going up but keep testing. We need to know where he’ll be at the evening preshot time. Also, you may see higher numbers later today or tomorrow which is due to something we call bouncing and it’s the body’s way of protecting itself after low numbers.

I went through 3 vets myself. The first knew so little about feline diabetes she said I didn’t need to do curves and it didn’t matter what time I gave insulin. Vets that know a lot of feline diabetes are very hard to find. The best you can hope for is a vet that’s willing to work with you on how you want to treat your cat, ie what type of insulin you want. I’ve been basically taking Minnie and now Bobo to an IM only but even then, I don’t ask him for advice regarding diabetes. To me, any vet that increases the dose blindly, tells you there’s no need to home test, and prescribe an insulin not suitable for cats is putting cats’ lives at risk and in my book, is a “bad vet.”
 
Last edited:
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Most vets get very little training on nutrition. Most of what they end up getting is from the marketing reps from the pet food companies. Until very recently, the pet food manufacturers were selling "prescription" foods that were specific to many common veterinary conditions, including diabetes. There was a class action suit that the pet food companies lost that pointed out there is nothing that is medically necessary in most of the prescription foods that helps to control the targeted conditions. Diabetes is a good example. The dry food that was labeled as prescription food for diabetes is exceptionally high in carbohydrates. Now, those "diabetic" foods are labeled "dietetic" but I'm guessing most vets don't know about the class action suit and haven't noticed the change in labeling. They are also likely to be unaware of the amount of carbs in the food. I know my vet wasn't. I truly doubt that it's about what the food costs since you can now order it (with a vet's Rx) pretty much anywhere.

I've been here a lot longer than Ale. I've not seen that many cats that are "close to dying." I've also not seen many "bad vets." Vets are expected to know everything about every species of animal they treat. It's an exceptionally big ask if you think about how often humans are referred to specialists because of their age (pediatricians, gerontologists) or because of a particular condition -- and humans are only one species. It's even more challenging if you live in an area that doesn't have a large selection of vets or is near a vet school. It's a tough job and it's hard to stay current given the scope of what they're asked to do.

You have a choice. You can feed your cat anything that is under 10% carbs. Most people here feed their cat a diet that's in the 5% range. We have food charts that list the carbs. Under 10% is a low carb diet. However, you can't be giving your cat 12u of insulin and change the food over to low carb. Thomas will have a serious hypoglycemic event if you do.

As for insulin, there are two choices that are recommended by the American Animal Hospital Assn. I've linked their guidelines. Both glargine (Lantus) or Prozinc are recommended. Either is a good insulin. When the vet tried Lantus, a month is not a long enough time to assess the effectiveness of the insulin. The pharmacology of Lantus is very different than other types of insulin. The same rules do not apply.

Give some thought as to what you want to do. You may need to have a conversation with your vet since if you change insulin, you will need a prescription.

Let's see what Thomas' numbers look like closer to shot time. Can you post with information at least an hour before he's due for his evening shot? How many hours from now do you shoot? You're going to need to lower the dose but we need to give some thought as to how much you need to lower the dose.
Click to expand...

Ok! I will. He will get his dose at 7pm. Should I do a test between now and just before insulin injection?

He was on 12 units for 2 weeks and then did a curve at vet. It was the first time his numbers were lower and within range. When I called about the insulin he asked why I’m questioning things because his numbers are finally going down so why change anything??

About the food. My dogs have always got chicken and veggies. Vets back in the day would discourage me by feeding them that. My dogs lived to be 18 and 17 (Aussie and a schnauzer). Actually my kitten wants to eat the chicken veggie mixture. I give him a bit in the morning and I wondered if cats would do well on that diet as well????
How do you know the carbs in the food? I don’t see it listed on the hills w/d brand anywhere.
 
Jenn Slade said:
Ok! I will. He will get his dose at 7pm. Should I do a test between now and just before insulin injection?

He was on 12 units for 2 weeks and then did a curve at vet. It was the first time his numbers were lower and within range. When I called about the insulin he asked why I’m questioning things because his numbers are finally going down so why change anything??

About the food. My dogs have always got chicken and veggies. Vets back in the day would discourage me by feeding them that. My dogs lived to be 18 and 17 (Aussie and a schnauzer). Actually my kitten wants to eat the chicken veggie mixture. I give him a bit in the morning and I wondered if cats would do well on that diet as well????
How do you know the carbs in the food? I don’t see it listed on the hills w/d brand anywhere.
Click to expand...
I’d finish the curve if I were you.

FOOD CHART have a look on this chart and choose foods that are under 10%.

You will also need some higher carb foods for that hypo box.
 
Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA) said:
I have to say I think you should go back to the vet that put him on Lantus. No good vet should ever raise a dose by more than 1 units at a time and they should certainly not be prescribing caninsulin to a cat. Unfortunately most vets do not know a lot about feline diabetes….they have many animals to look after and they all have different diseases and treatments. Vets also get their information about nutrition from the big cat food manufacturers so they are biased in what they recommend. Sadly, we see many cats here that come close to dying because of bad vets. I’m not saying they do it on purpose, but what they don’t know or the misinformation they give out puts cats’ lives at risk. You’re absolutely right and that’s why we advised you to start home testing so that you can safely transition him out of the high carb foods and onto low carb foods only. He also needs a better insulin.

I may have posted this before, but with a diabetic cat you need:
  • A low carb wet diet that is 10% carbs or under. Most of us use around 4-7% carbs
  • A suitable insulin such as Lantus or Prozinc which are long acting, more gentle insulins than the old insulins.
  • In addition to home testing

Luckily you are here now and we can help. The folks here have been handling feline diabetes for over 25 years so they know way more than your average vet.

Signature looks good thank you. If you can plug all the numbers you’re getting today and then add a link to the spreadsheet to your signature that will be even better so we can all follow and see the numbers you’re getting today. Thank god you’re doing a curve at home btw, at the vet cats are stressed and those bg numbers are usually inflated because of that. Also, the UTI can affect the bg
Click to expand...
Is there a spreadsheet to use here? Do you have a link?
 
Jenn Slade said:
Is there a spreadsheet to use here? Do you have a link?
Click to expand...
We don’t know what time it is where you are so I’m not sure when 7pm is. It’s 1:22 where I am right now that’s why we use the spreadsheet so we don’t need to go by times and time zones. The info is on the first link I posted here you go again:
  • HELP US HELP YOU has information about the spreadsheet, signature and hypo box which you will need to be able to look after your beloved kitty properly
 
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