Neuropathy not improving

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kaw

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My 11 year old cat, Scout, was diagnosed with diabetes in June. He developed neuropathy about a month ago. His diabetes is under control but there is no improvement in his hind legs. They are very weak, he is very weak.
My vet has recommended seeing a specialist (neurologist) to see what the problem is. My question is - is this necessary so quickly? How much time should be given for improvement? Is there something my vet is missing?
The specialist will be expensive and so far the vet bills are exceeding $2300.
Any help or suggestion will be appreciated.
Thank! confused_cat
 
Many of us have used an inexpensive supplement called Methyl B12 to help with neuropathy.

Methylcolbalamin, or Methyl B12, is usually available in health food stores. It can also be ordered online (Xobaline is one well-tested brand name here). Just make sure it does not contain Xylitol (an artificial sweetener) since it can be toxic to cats and dogs.

Most of us give between 3 and 5mg (3000 - 5000 mcg) per day, regardless of body size. Any excess is excreted in the urine, so no worries about overdosing. Remember - it's METHYL B12. Regular B12 has no effect on neuropathy.

Check out this link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/weak-back-rear-legs.htm
If you scroll down the page you will see how bad my Rambo (GA) had neuropathy. Trust me, if he can recover from that (and he did!), any kitty can!! It took him a few months to stop walking on his hocks and to be able to climb stairs again, but he did. It's a combination of the Methyl B12 and lowered, well-controlled BGs that does the trick. Be patient! And good luck.
 
Good morning. When you said his diabetes is under control, does that mean that you hometest or are you relying on just the vet tests? The only way to really know if your cat's diabetes is under control is through hometesting. The test at the vet's office is just a snapshot of what may be going on at the time and also usually not as accurate has hometesting.

The methly B12 will help. Make sure when you buy your B12 that the ingredient is Methylcolbalamin not Cyanocobalamin. The Cyanocobalamin will not work for neuropathy.
 
Lisa's post to you got me thinking and I looked at what you have spent since June. Was Scout sick in the beginning and needed hospitalization? Could you please post back and tell us what Scout is eating, what insulin is he on and what is the dose? Also, I have a feeling you are not hometesting and the vet is doing the blood checks. Here is a link on how to learn hometesting that will truly help you to help Scout. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287
 
Only two months with Methylcolbalamin, or Methyl B12 once a day and my Bear's neuropathy has almost completed reversed. Before he couldn't walk across an uncarpeted floor without his legs slipping out to the sides and now he barely walks on his hocks.
 
Thank you to all who replied. I need all the support possible now.

Scout is on 4.5 units of Lantus, 2x daily. His diet is W/D by Science Diet, for wet food he gets the grain & veggie free Fancy Feast listed on this site. Scout is prone to crystals in his urine so a high protien food is not recommended.

Scout was not ill prior to the onset of diabetes with the exception of the crystals in his urine. The amount paid is from blood panels, blood curve and monitoring of his sugar levels. He was taken into the emergency when he could not walk. I have a glucose monitor now and have begun home testing him effective Oct 2nd. I have a call in to the vet regarding the B-12, when I questioned using this a few weeks ago she mentioned there were side effects.

I appreciate everyone who shared their advice and experience. My intent is to go the distance with Scout, I do worry that he is unhappy right now.
Thank you!!
 
That is a fairly high dose of insulin ... may I ask how slowly it was raised, and how it was arrived at?

The dry W/D is -I'm sorry to say- an absolutely dreadful food to give cats, especially diabetic ones. Look at the ingredient list on the side of the bag. We have no idea why vets still recommend it. Even m/d (Hill's diabetic food) is somewhat better. It may explain why his insulin needs are so high.

And cats need protein, crystals or not - they are obligate carnivores. If your concern in crystals, you need to keep the kidneys and bladder well flushed, which means no dry food at all, just canned or raw (food high in moisture). Have you read Dr. Lisa's site on feline nutrition yet? It's well-written and very informative.

As for the B-12, please remember that it is METHYL B12, which is very different, and there are no side effects, except the reversal of the neuropathy. Rambo's vet had never heard of it, and was most skeptical, but he also said the neuropathy was irreversible. It was lovely to prove him wrong. ;-)

I am SO glad you will be hometesting and looking forward to seeing your numbers.
 
Ditto everything Karen posted plus if/when you get him off WD please monitor closely. His numbers may go down quite a bit and his dose of insulin will change. WD was the old school of thought, years ago. Majority of us feed canned and/or raw.
 
You have gotten some great advice. It doesn't look like anyone has given you these links. For Dr. Lisa's site: http://www.catinfo.org She is a vet and specifically discusses diets for cats with urinary (crystals) issues. Here is a great beginning site for hometesting:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm and the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 We try to feed between 8-10% carbs of wet food. This food chart will help: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm Janet and Binky’s chart

Hometesting will help you see if the dose is best for him (testing at the vet can really throw the numbers off high as cats are usually stressed at the vet) and will really help your pocketbook. A change in diet can mean drastically lower numbers and lower insulin needs (Oliver's numbers went down 100 points overnight when we switched from dry to wet food) which will help the costs. Lantus is a good insulin. Our Insulin Support group page for Lantus has some stickies at the top that will give you great insight into how it works and how to use it for Scout: viewforum.php?f=9

That's a lot of homework for you, but it is how you can best help Scout. Read, read and reread. Learn all you can about feline diabetes and then apply it. Ask questions. We would love to help you learn and get Scout on his way to regulation!
 
The lantus board is great and they can really help you. Bear has not experienced any side effects from the Methyl B. There is hope!!! Bear was going to have one more summer with us and be put down this fall.... it is now October and he is doing better than he has been for years!!
 
Scout's insulin was slowly increased, starting at 1 unit 2x daily.

It was mentioned the w/d was not good for him. He, and his siblings, are large kittys. Scout weighs 16 lbs, Boo Radley 21 lbs and Eliza Jane is also 16 lbs. The vet put them all on this food about 6 months ago. I will check the links posted for a more appropriate food. Scout is mostly eating moist food right now but is a grazer so it looks like I will change the dry food for all.

I am aslo having alot of difficuly obtaining samples for his home testing. Is there an easier way to get a sample? Trying to get a sample from his ear, tried the flashlight to find a vein but still not enough blood for the monitor to pick up.

Thank you again for your advice, tips, and links. Any help I can get is appreciated!!
 
Please ignore the pervious reply to your posts.

I read a few of the links provided and am canceling the appt with the neurologist on Friday. All of the "kids" will go on a new, recommended diet from Dr. Lisa's web site. Scout will be given Methyl B-12.
I read the info on how to get a blood sample from the ear and will attempt again. Currently using a borrowed glucose monitor (One Touch) but will purchase one for cats. These purchases will be about the same as the Nuerologists consultation fee and probably be more helpful to the kids welfare.

A day ago I felt helpless and afraid of losing Scout. Today I am enpowered and want to thank you very much!!
 
The One Touch is a great meter. Save your money and don't bother buying a "pet only" one. Also, you do not aim for the vein, just the edge of the ear. You will get blood as long as the ear is warm. Massage it a little before sticking and put support underneath the ear.....I use cosmetic pads for that......and after sticking and getting the blood I roll the pad over and press and hold to stop bleeding and minimize the bruising. The ears do learn to bleed. I no longer warm any ear. Please keep in touch and let us know how you are doing.
 
Do start hometesting as soon as possible. It's methylB12, not regular B-12 when you call your vet. You also don't need your vet's permission to use it. Tucker and Misty(GA) both took it for a while, they got better from being regulated on insulin also.

The dose of insulin your cat is on is high, the fact that he was not ill prior to the onset of FD could mean that the insulin is making him sick. Could you tell me if during the bloodwork you've had done, was potassium checked?

Low potassium can lead to muscle waisting. I'm not a vet and not an expert, but my understanding is that insulin can draw potassium from the cells of the body or suppress the potassium concentration in the cells. Tucker is experiencing low potassium problems, so this is on my mind a lot.
 
Forgot to mention that I also order my One Touch test strips from Hocks. Up on the top of the page is a Hocks ad.....click on it.....I've used Hocks for 12 yrs. and test strips for the OT are more expensive than other meters that have come out but I trust my OTUltra.
 
Just got a call from the vet. She stated she has no information that the MethylB12 is beneficial for neuropathy. Im going to try it regardless. Some of you noted on your Excel charts you were going to give B12 injections, checking the web for liquid form but am unable to locate. Scout will not take anything orally. If I am unable to locate liquid form, can I mix the B12 with his wet food?

Potassium levels were checked on 8/24 and were normal.

She also suggested d/m formula for more protien. Any thoughts on this food?
 
Here's a neuropathy link. http://www.felinediabetes.com/weak-back-rear-legs.htm Neuropathy Your vet may not have seen results, but we have. As others have said, it needs to be combined with the right dose of insulin, headed toward regulation. Yes, you can mix it with food.

DM wet is 7% carbs which is okay and the protein level is fine; the ingredients aren't great, mostly liver based protein. Oliver wouldn't eat it and it is much more expensive than other foods that are low carb and the same protein levels. You could try it and then take it back and say he wouldn't eat it. (Which has been the case with most cats here; very few cats are willing to eat it day after day.)
 
The B 12 used for injections is not Methylcobalamin.......it is cyanolobalmin........Methyl is a form of B12. Your vet probably has never heard of it if she hasn't treated a huge amount of diabetic cats. Read again Jasper's site and also read Vets are NOT infallible. They are all true stories from owners and what their vets have told them. Also, http://www.pure-advantage.net/Daily_Nut ... _Spray.asp has a liquid form BUT I don't have pdf on this lap top so I couldn't check out the ingredients. You could and make sure there is no Xylitol in it. That is dangerous to cats and dogs.

Methyl is harmless and there is no reason not to use it to help Scout. People on FDMB have used it for years for their cats.
 
My cat Xander could barely walk, and let alone Jump.. or walk across the kitchen floor (no carpet), but within 1 week of giving him 2 pills per day of Life Link Xobaline Methyl B-12 he was just about back to normal, and after 2 full weeks at twice a day it was as if he never had any trouble..I was totally SHOCKED. Now after reading some of the other posts, and reading the ingredients of this particular product it might not be the best as it does have some fructose in it, as well as, "cherry flavor"(no ingredients listed for the flavoring). But If I were you I would certainly get some methyl B-12 and dose the heck out of the little bugger. Like everyone else was saying.. you can't overdose with Methly B-12.
Anyway, once Xander's numbers got below 220 consistently I didn't even have to keep giving him the Methyl B-12.. Keep in mind at the same time I was dosing him with the Xobaline I switched him from Dry food (Worst thing you can feed a diabetic cat) to a raw food diet with "instincts" mix.. which is basically supposed to simulate as closely as possible a diet a cat in the wild would eat.
GOOD LUCK!!!
 
My vet never had never heard of it, either, but I had done my research, read Jasper's story, and all the anecdotal evidence here and decided to try it. The fact that it couldn't hurt helped make up my mind ... if it can't hurt, and can help, why not give it a shot, right? And, as Rambo proved, the rest was history.

The pills are small and water soluble, so it's very easy to dissolve them in a tsp of warm water and mix with his food (so try to avoid flavoured ones). Don't worry too much if it has a wee bit of fructose in it, just make sure it has no Xylitol.

Also check the pill dosage. Some are 1000mcg (1mg), so you would have to give 5 or 6 a day. You can find the 3000mcg (3mg) ones, so giving only 2 a day is easier.

You can print this out for your vet : http://www.delano.com/Articles/Methyl-B ... -pets.html

And your vet can track down the footnote articles as well. Bottom line, you have nothing to lose except your cat's neuropathy ...

Good luck!!!
 
Hi, my cat Lilly gets her methylcobalamin in divided doses twice a day. I mix it with a small amount of meat baby food (powder emptied from capsules plus baby food amounts to maybe 1 tsp) and I put some on my finger and scrape it behind her top teeth, giving her time to lick it all off and swallow before offering the next fingerful. This takes about 2 min daily. I like the rice sock (sock filled loosely with around 3/4 cup uncooked rice and tied off) to warm her ear before I stick it with the lancet, I put it in microwave for about 40 sec and hold it against her ear for a min or so before attempting to stick to draw blood - the blood will usually spurt out readily. Lil was on Lantus which I liked very much and was able to get OTJ (off the juice as we say) within a couple of months, currently maintained on wet lowish carb diet and doing well. For dosage of B12 methylcobalamin I followed the advice in this article: http://www.laurieulrich.com/jasper/
Best regards. Sugarpura
 
Scout (Boo Radley and Eliza Jane) have been taken off the Science Diet w/d. I purchased Purina Plan dry food which is 40% protien. I know dry food is not recommended but he is a grazer. He mostly eats wet food these days and is now on the recommended variety of Sophfisticat and ProPlan wet food. Also gave him his first dose of Methyl B12 today.
Yesterday I checked his glucose - 6:00 am 352 and 5:00 pm 297. Tomorrow I plan on doing a blood curve and will post the numbers for any thoughts or advice you may offer. Thank you to Sue and Oliver for posting the YouTube video as a guide to collecting a blood sample from his ear. It was a very helpful and worked the first time! Thanks to Hope for the tip on purchasing the test strips from Hocks, its a huge savings.
Thanks to all who gave their thoughts, experience, and expertise. Not sure what I would have done without this web site.
Until tomorrow,
Kim
 
Sounds like things are moving along. Congrats and welcome to the vampire club.

I know we nag, but eliminating that dry food will really lower his bg levels. Check the food chart http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html Depending on which Plan food, the dry Purina run from 34 -41 carbs. That's a long way from 8-10%. Just think what 100 points downward would make your numbers look like - and Oliver went down that far with the food change. It's not unusual.

I free feed wet with an automatic feeder, freezing it and letting it thaw when it is time to eat - you can set it to go off several times a day and night.
 
Great idea with the automatic feeder. what kind do you use? Ill check the carb level on the dry Purina food.
 
We tried several before we found one that works. The PetSafe 5 was our clear winner - PetSmart carries it. It revolves underneath so they can't get into it (and Oliver got into several different kinds before we found this one...) It is easy to program - you can pick how long you want between feedings, no preset times. And there are 5 compartments so it lasts all day or night.

I also found one of those silicone cupcake pans. A can of Fancy Feast fits perfectly in the cups. I freeze 6 in the pan and then plop them out into a freezer bag. We usually have 20 pucks in the freezer at one time.
 
Fred's B12 was low and the vet had me give Fred shots of B12--cycanocobalamin--and the day of the 2nd shot (they are given once a week), there was a dramatic improvement in Fred's leg stability. That was 2 1/2 months ago and we have gone thru a graduated 8 shots....he now can't walk but that's from something totally different, maybe too much Lasix/low potassium..not sure. But anyway, we got a brief improvements from the B12 shots and it was fast...I probably waited too long to do that, although prior blood tests had not shown that he was low, buthe never actually walked on his hocks all the time, he only did it when he blood sugar was high...
 
Alright, did the blood curve for Scout on Saturday and these are his numbers -

6:00am - 372
Feed ProPlan wet food
6:30 - 4.5 units Lantus
7:30 - 284
9:30 - 247
11:30 - 267
1:30 - 260
3:30 - 278

By this time Scout was pretty irriated with me and was letting me know he had enough. Called the number in to the vet, she advised to increase his insulin to 5 units. Not sure if I should do this or wait and see how his new diet effects his numbers. How often to you all check you cats, daily? Have been mixing the Methyl B12 in with his moist food.
Thanks.
 
I think you need specific Lantus advice. How about a new thread with Lantus advice needed and your current curve?

Edited to add: Have you changed to wet lo carb? Dry food can really be keeping his numbers up.
 
Hey there,

You have a pretty high dose of Lantus for a "normal cat". Before you see a specialist, I would recommend that you have your vet draw blood for 2 tests - IAA and IGF-1. Both of these tests check for insulin resistance (see http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... f=12&t=375). The only lab in North America that runs these tests is Michigan State University - your vet will draw & spin the blood, then send it off to MSU. You'll have your results in about a week (if you send the blood off on Monday, you should have results by Friday or the following Monday; the tests are run on Thursdays).

The tests themselves are cheap, but will probably run between $150 - $200 by the time your vet tacks on fees.

If either of these tests come back positive, let us know - we can probably help much more than a specialist.

PS - I see the vet wanted you to go to a neurologist, and the neurologist would probably want to do a CT scan. Please get the IGF-1 (and IAA) tests run. The CT scan would probably be looking for a pituitary tumor, which would be indicative of acromegaly. The IGF-1 test would be much, much cheaper and if by chance comes back positive and if you decide to treat, you would have to get a CT scan at the treatment site...so, you don't want to waste that money now.
 
I cannot comment on the neuropathy, but I can comment on dry food issues and high dose situations.

I know others have already mentioned the dry food being bad, but I can tell you that it could be the cause of your high numbers and high dose.

My Shadoe is very sensitive to the carbs and if she eats just a mouthful of dry food (my civvie Booboo will eat only dry), Shadoe's numbers will go into the 400s or higher. That dry food also takes days to get out of the cat's system too.

There was one person whose cat was eating dry food and needed a dose of somewhere around 20units! After the switch to wet food, that dose dropped like a stone down to something like 1unit. Food is very very critical, so if your cat is already OK with wet, there is no need at all for dry.

Careful when you remove the dry because if the food is causing the high numbers, you will need to watch closely and test often to be sure the numbers don't drop too low.

If you find that the food is not the issue, the tests suggested IGF-1 and IAA - will let you know if you are dealing with an insulin resistance issue. Ask your vet to arrange for these tests, and if your vet does not have the info, please let us know. My vet had no clue about the tests, what was needed, where to send the blood draw, etc. I had to provide the info to my vet. When I asked for my other diabetic cat to be tested, she knew what had to be done.
Here are the links to the info sheets:
IAA Test
IGF-1 (Acro) Test
 
Keep up the link.. your doing great.. home test and wet food off this list found here is definitely the way to go.. without it my Khan wouldn't be here.

Wow great advice!!! My cat Khan's legs are going out and I'm definitely on board to getting the methylB12.. does anyone know if this comes in liquid so I can do injections instead of messing around with the tablets? I would like to get this ASAP.. my vet is on board with this protocol as well. He has read the information (yipee!!)..

This board is my blessing to saving my family member-KHAN

Bless all of you!!!!
 
pepperthecat1969 said:
Wow great advice!!! My cat Khan's legs are going out and I'm definitely on board to getting the methylB12.. does anyone know if this comes in liquid so I can do injections instead of messing around with the tablets?
Click to expand...

The tablets are water soluble. Just crush in a tablespoon of warm water and mix with his food. Very fast, very easy.
 
Scout has been on a high protein, low carb diet for a week and his numbers are much lower. Did a blood curve today and his numbers are as follows -

7:30 - 334
9:30 - 227
11:30 - 112
1:30 - 140
3:30 - 188

I placed a call to my vet and she is on vacation. Does anyone have any advice on how I should adjust his insulin (Lantus). Scout weighs 16 pounds and is currently on 4.5 units 2x a day. Im a little nervous to give him such a high dose. Another vet has been asked to call me back but thought Id post in the mean time.

Scout has also been on Methyl b12 for a week. I notice the weakness in his back legs has improved but the neuropathy remains. He is on 6 mg a day.

Thanks for all who reply.
 
No dosing advice maybe post on the Lantus ISG board?

but with numbers like that AND 6mgs a day of MB12, I think you will continue to see improvement in the neuropathy. I was giving Trouble 10 mg's a day and the first time he jumped up on my bed, I cried.

Good job,
jeanne
 
I already posted on the Lantus board.


No doubt I will be jumping for joy when Scout makes that leap, guess we (Scout and I) both will. Im happy for you and Trouble!!

Thanks for your reply.
 
Sorry didnt mean to give the wrong impression the (GA) behind a kitties name means they have passed on.

Not to worry he didnt pass from diabetes. In fact he was insulin free due to advice and belonging to this fine family, that is, FDMB. We think it was his heart. "Bubs" left us 4 years ago this January.

Many blessings,
jeanne
 
Jeanne,

Im so sorry. That day remains a wonderful day for you to remember.
Trouble was a lucky boy to have a caring Mom like you.

Take care,
Kim
 
Those BG numbers look lovely, and the fact that you see some improvement after just 1 week on the MB12 is fabulous!

Keep up the good work.
 
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