Mycatloveseveryone has diabetes

[Mycatloveseveryone]

Hi everyone,

My black cat is anywhere between 12-16 years old. I took him to a vet 2 months ago. He has FIV. His blood glucose was 398 at that time in May of this year and he weighed 14.93lbs. They wanted him on insulin but didn't have syringes in stock so after a week I then took him to an emergency vet clinic who gave me Prozinc and said I should give him 3units every 12 hours with wd and md dry food combined and left out for him to eat 24/7 also to feed him wd/md wet food combined at the time of injection.

I fed him the food for one week with no injection and he went from being 14.73lbs to 17.8lbs. I then began giving him the insulin because at the end of that week the emergency vet took his glucose and said it was in the 600s but didn't show me the reading.

After the past 2 months following exact directions and food schedule, the vet wants to curve him but I can't afford to pay what they are asking so I bought a glucose meter Alphatrak 2. I tested by pricking his ear. After 13 hours of no shot his blood glucose was 542. After being given a shot I tested the next day 7 hours after being injected with insulin and the blood glucose was at 569 and at 12 hours the same day it was at 609. This entire week I decided to feed him Tiki cat wet food while still injecting and keeping out the hills wd and md dry food.

After reading the ingredients in the md hills dry food I believe it was prescribed bc Kitty lost quite a bit of muscle tone along his backside and hind legs and there is some L-Arginine and L-Lysine. The wd hills dry food is probably to keep his bladder from getting an infection bc of his frequent urination. However he only urinates about 4 times every 8-12 hours.

I took his BG on Thursday night and it was at 560. I just took it again tonight and it is at 558. Does anyone know how I much I should lower the dose and what to do about the dry food situation? Also is there anything else I should do?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

You need to get the dry completely out of his diet....there is absolutely nothing in "prescription" foods that requires a prescription. It's an industry coined term that has no meaning.

The ingredients are really pretty lousy too.

W/D contains Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Meal, Wheat Gluten, Powdered Cellulose, Chicken, Whole Grain Corn, Whole Grain Wheat, Pork Flavor, Pork Fat (and a bunch of chemicals/vitamins/minerals)...everything in red is a carbohydrate and diabetic cats need LOW carb diets. Also, "powdered cellulose" is a fancy word for sawdust.

M/D contains Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken, Chicken Fat, Wheat Gluten, Potato Protein, Powdered Cellulose, Pork Protein Isolate, Corn Starch, Sweet Potatoes, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed ….chicken by product meal is the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.

Now let's compare that to TikiCat canned which has Chicken, chicken broth, sunflower seed oil (and added vitamins/minerals)

Cats are obligate carnivores....they cannot process carbohydrates. What little carbs a cat would get in the wild would be the little bit of grains/grasses that was in their prey item's stomach.

As long as the high carb food is in the picture, you're not going to get the best results possible. It's like trying to put out a fire (high blood glucose) while you're continuing to pour gasoline (carbs) on it....yes, you can do it, but it's going to take a lot more time and a lot more water (insulin)

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I took his BG on Thursday night and it was at 560. I just took it again tonight and it is at 558. Does anyone know how I much I should lower the dose and what to do about the dry food situation? Also is there anything else I should do?

Normal blood glucose for a cat using the AlphaTrak is 68-150 so as you can see, you're way high.

Also, you don't want him to gain weight....obesity is one of the big risk factors for diabetic cats....losing weight may help bring his numbers down too.

3U may be too much for Kitty, but I wouldn't drop his dose down as long as he's running that high. Numbers that high make him at a high risk for DKA which is very hard and very expensive to treat (and isn't always successful).

We need you to test before every shot and then (if at all possible) get a test somewhere mid-cycle on the AM cycle and at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. If you can't test during the day due to work, it's even more important for you to get PM tests and then do curves on days off to see how low the current dose is taking him.

Once we get your spreadsheet up, that will help us to help you!! Great job on getting your signature done!!

 

[Idjit's mom]

I just read your thread here in the Main Health forum, and I would like to repeat Chris's advice to test before every injection. If you can, remove food 2 hours before testing so that the result is not food influenced. If Kitty is very hungry in the morning, you can feed him at least some and do the test right away, as it will take a little bit for the food to reach the blood stream.

I am looking at your spreadsheet and you are putting the time of the injection in the AMPS and PMPS columns. This column is meant for you to put in the blood sugar test results before you inject. If you would like to track what time that you give the injection you can insert another column before the AMPS and PMPS columns and that would be fine.

If you can get tests in during different times in the daytime 12 hour cycle, that would be good also. It also looks like you are not able to shoot consistently at 12 hour intervals. Is the work schedule the reason for this? I am also wondering why you have changed the dose from 3 Units to 2.75 U on 8/2. I know you have been told that the 3 U was a pretty high starting dose and I was just wondering.

I hope you have had an opportunity to read the information in the yellow tagged stickies at the top of the Lantus insulin support group forum. A good understanding of how Lantus works and how to use it effectively is going to help you to work to bring down those high BGs. How has Kitty adjusted to an all wet low carb diet? Or is he still getting the Hill's dry food?

I hope you also can get more testing data to provide to the experienced Lantus users for input and/or suggestions as you go forward. It's not always easy to work these new "jobs" into our routines, but it's worth the effort.

 

[Mycatloveseveryone]

Normal blood glucose for a cat using the AlphaTrak is 68-150 so as you can see, you're way high.

Also, you don't want him to gain weight....obesity is one of the big risk factors for diabetic cats....losing weight may help bring his numbers down too.

3U may be too much for Kitty, but I wouldn't drop his dose down as long as he's running that high. Numbers that high make him at a high risk for DKA which is very hard and very expensive to treat (and isn't always successful).

We need you to test before every shot and then (if at all possible) get a test somewhere mid-cycle on the AM cycle and at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle. If you can't test during the day due to work, it's even more important for you to get PM tests and then do curves on days off to see how low the current dose is taking him.

Once we get your spreadsheet up, that will help us to help you!! Great job on getting your signature done!!

Hi Chris I will test him as often as I can. He just let me test him unaided so he is getting accustomed to it now. The issue now will be my irregular work schedule... Thank you for the great advice. I lowered his insulin to 2.75 to see if there would be any difference but as it can be seen by the graph it's kinda staying the same mid cycle. The wd and md are out but in less quantity. He is eating alot more wet food since being on the Tiki cat but not gainingweight. I purchased Tiki cat born carnivore light dry food. I wonder if I can just leave that out instead of the wd/md?
Do you suggest I do bump him back up to 3 units?

 

[Mycatloveseveryone]

I just read your thread here in the Main Health forum, and I would like to repeat Chris's advice to test before every injection. If you can, remove food 2 hours before testing so that the result is not food influenced. If Kitty is very hungry in the morning, you can feed him at least some and do the test right away, as it will take a little bit for the food to reach the blood stream.

I am looking at your spreadsheet and you are putting the time of the injection in the AMPS and PMPS columns. This column is meant for you to put in the blood sugar test results before you inject. If you would like to track what time that you give the injection you can insert another column before the AMPS and PMPS columns and that would be fine.

If you can get tests in during different times in the daytime 12 hour cycle, that would be good also. It also looks like you are not able to shoot consistently at 12 hour intervals. Is the work schedule the reason for this? I am also wondering why you have changed the dose from 3 Units to 2.75 U on 8/2. I know you have been told that the 3 U was a pretty high starting dose and I was just wondering.

I hope you have had an opportunity to read the information in the yellow tagged stickies at the top of the Lantus insulin support group forum. A good understanding of how Lantus works and how to use it effectively is going to help you to work to bring down those high BGs. How has Kitty adjusted to an all wet low carb diet? Or is he still getting the Hill's dry food?

I hope you also can get more testing data to provide to the experienced Lantus users for input and/or suggestions as you go forward. It's not always easy to work these new "jobs" into our routines, but it's worth the effort.

Hi I just responed to Chris about this dry food and getting his BG numbers. I work irregular hours but I am doing the best I can...Thank for the support. Oh and he is on Prozinc so do I still need to read about Lantus? Are those insulins similar to each other?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I purchased Tiki cat born carnivore light dry food.

I doubt if it's much better carb-wise.....there are only 2 kinds of kibble that are low carb, Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein (on Chewy and their website) and Young Again Zero (only available on their website)….and usually the foods that are advertised as "light" are actually worse than their regular variety.

Do you suggest I do bump him back up to 3 units?

Yes for now....but without more test results, it's really impossible to know what's going on with him. I know we keep harping on it, but it really is important. Always test before the shot....always. If you can, get any other tests on the AM cycle....if you can't get regular tests on the AM cycle, it's even more important to get a few tests on the PM cycle. There's just no way to know what's going on without those tests. When you have a day off, do a curve. That's testing every 2 hours for 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours.

do I still need to read about Lantus? Are those insulins similar to each other?

No...Prozinc is different than Lantus and it does allow more flexibility in dosing. It's not quite as important that you shoot ever 12 hours exactly so it's probably the best choice for him right now with your schedule.

Read this post on "Is Tight Regulation possible with a full time job" It was written with Lantus in mind, but there are still some good ideas on how to deal with a diabetic cat when you have to work.

 

[Idjit's mom]

Hi I just responed to Chris about this dry food and getting his BG numbers. I work irregular hours but I am doing the best I can...Thank for the support. Oh and he is on Prozinc so do I still need to read about Lantus? Are those insulins similar to each other?

My error about Lantus, apologies. Chris has responded to that question. There is good information about Prozinc in that insulin support group also.

I agree you are doing the best you can while you are learning all this new information. I was wondering if you worked irregular hours and that was the reason for the different injection times. It's going to take a little time for you to get the testing data you need recorded, and finding a low carb food for Kitty, in order to see where to go dosage wise. You are concerned and trying hard and that's what counts.

Just be aware that when you start changing the diet (and it's best to do so gradually) the lower carb diets can lower the BG significantly and you will want to be testing consistently to see how it affects Kitty. Many of us use a timed feeder so that our cats have wet food available when we can't either be there or for during the night. It helps a lot when you are switching out the dry food that we used to leave out for grazing.

Have you thought about offering Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies pates (not the Indoor cat varieties) to see if Kitty would like them? Lots of varieties at the local grocery store. You can check carb levels on the FOOD CHART
Below 10% carbs is best. Some of the Weruva and Tiki Cat canned varieties are below the 10% carb levels, and I have read that one of our members also uses the Tiki Cat After Dark varieties which is not on the food chart.

Check out the Cat Mate and Pet Safe feeders. Some of the models have little ice packs that you can put under the food tray to keep the wet food chilled. You can add water to help keep it moist also, and the water is an added bonus for kitty for urinary health. If a model does not have an ice pack, you can freeze wet food (plus a little water) in ice cube trays, and a cube or 2 will gradually thaw in the portion cup.

We use the Cat Mate C20 (two portion trays) because we just needed something for night snack and when we are gone at Idjit's regular mealtime. I had to teach Idjit about the timed feeder, got him in the kitchen just before the feeder would open, and let him see it open and ta-dah! there was food! Very quickly he was in the kitchen at meal time, ready and waiting for the magic lid to open. Then I could just set one of the trays to open later at night or at a scheduled meal time if we were away.
Just racking my brain here for things that might help you and Kitty as you go along.