Miisu

[margus92]

Hello,
I am new to this board and to cat diabetes. I myself am 18 years old and a proud owner of my little cat. She will be 9 this spring and just today was diagnosed with diabetes. The vet sold us special food (by Royal Canin) for diabetic cats and told us to go see him again in 2 days. The trigger was the cat urinating and drinking abnormal amounts and although my mom had heard somewhere that it was a red flag for diabetes and I had told her to go see a vet she delayed it until now (some months I think, though not sure when it started). Today the blood test showed something a bit over 20 (it might have been 21,3 but not sure at all). How bad is that? The vet gave us hope that mere dietary changes (until now she has received high quality light food) might do the trick (as I also read here).
I am really worried about her and quite at loose ends about it all and myself.
Thanks in advance,
Margus

 

[Jen & Squeak]

Hi and welcome !

This is a big responsibility for you, I'm glad that your mom is helping out.
By chance are you in Canada/UK/NZ? I ask because I am, and the measurements you use (metric) are different than the majority on this board who are from the USA.

Now, diabetes can be quite easily treatable, especially if you and your mom can get a quick handle on it and work with your vet (and us to provide some advice).

Best bet is to read the feline diabetes faq, linked just a little higher up in this list.

Then, a few things

1. get ketodiastix or ketostix from your pharmacy and learn to test your cat's urine for ketones. These are a nasty side effect of untreated/unadequately treated diabetes and is a risk in the beginning
2. dry food that has a reduced level of carbs is a start, but honestly, canned food that doesn't contain any grains is even better. think of it in human terms....reduce or cut out the pasta/potatos/breads...
3. insulin....the sooner the better, in a very low dose to start. Yes, this means giving needles, but the quicker you address insulin and diet the better the chance that you may only need to give insulin temporarily
4. the scarier part...learn how to test blood glucose levels at home, just like human diabetics. Sounds scary but it isn't, and can really make treatment easier and more effective, plus can keep you from overdosing and killing your cat (ok, melodramatic but its true).

What do you think? Are you guys up for the challenge? Trust me, its worth it. Squea was diagnosed in 2002, off of insulin within a few months, and still going strong in 2010.

Jen

 

[margus92]

By chance are you in Canada/UK/NZ?

Unfortunately not. I live in Estonia (Europe, just south of Finland on the other side of the gulf). Just for comparison the vet mentioned that around 10 (whateverunits) would the the normal reading. In this case it is more than twice the normal. Is that ordinary or does it mean things have already got really bad?

1. get ketodiastix or ketostix from your pharmacy and learn to test your cat's urine for ketones. These are a nasty side effect of untreated/unadequately treated diabetes and is a risk in the beginning

The vet told us to go give blood tests quite often (every few days). Will the urine tests be still required during this time?

2. dry food that has a reduced level of carbs is a start, but honestly, canned food that doesn't contain any grains is even better. think of it in human terms....reduce or cut out the pasta/potatos/breads...

Are carbs the only dietary problem? Or does the special diabetic food maybe contain some beneficial substances?

What do you think? Are you guys up for the challenge? Trust me, its worth it. Squea was diagnosed in 2002, off of insulin within a few months, and still going strong in 2010.

I am quite positive I would go through anything for the sake of my cat.

 

[RuBee]

Hi, Margus - welcome to the board!

I'm so glad that you're going to treat your cat - it can be a big addition to your life, but, as they say - there's a silver lining to every cloud; one great thing has come out of my cat's diabetes, and that is the bond we've developed through his treatment. It's unfortunate that he got sick in the first place, but I can still make sure his life is every bit as pleasant and fun as it always was by testing him frequently (several times a day), giving him his insulin, and feeding him good food.

As for that food - those prescription foods that you get from your veterinarian aren't all that great. They're often just as cheaply made as your average store-bought food, and yet at least twice as expensive. Veterinarians sell them for many reasons, the two most obvious, being: they don't know any better; they want to make more money off of your cat. Both are scary, in my opinion.

What you want to do is go to your grocery or pet food store (with a magnifying glass if you have to) and read those ingredients until you find what your cat needs (this is a subject I'm sure someone with more experience will fill you in on, in the meantime you may want to go here: felinediabetes.com: diet). Keep in mind that the best food for a diabetic cat (and not a diabetic cat who has any other conditions!) is likely the best food for any cat. My mother and I are taking home a new cat from a shelter today, and unless my new fur-baby has allergies or other special needs, both he and my diabetic cat will eat the same good, healthy, food. :smile:

 

[margus92]

That food actually is from the same line as the previous foods. Sold in pet stores but also at the clinic. My cat decided a long time ago not to eat most of the dry foods sold in grocery stores.

 

[kate and lucky]

Hi,Welcome to FDMB :mrgreen:
by the units usually referred to on this board (mg/dl) it is 360. Not too horific, but may well need insulin.

Not sure a dietary change will be enough to get him back into non-diabetic numbers.
You want low carb wet food, don't need the stuff vet giving you as more expensive and quite often not as good as commercially available cat food.There's nothing in it that's different to commercially available food as a general rule.
Have a look at Janet and Binky's foodcharts:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
see what's available in Estonia and also compare. You want under 10% carbs (most important over protein etc) I prefer under 5%, but 10 is the minimum.If protein needs making up you can give kitty fresh boiled chicken-packed with protein, negligible carbs.

Can you get Whiskas or Felix in Estonia?
We had someone from your country way back but don't think they post anymore.

Are you hometesting or is vet telling you to keep taking kitty in to vets for test?
Hometesting is definitely the best way forward and quite simple once you get the hang of it. Can get glucometer from any pharmacy (human diabetic meter fine, don't need the expensive animal one that some vets push) and can get strips cheap off ebay.People here will help you getthe hang of this if your up for trying it?

If urine tests are for glucose, then not telling you much of anything other than he is peeing out glucose (because there's too much in his system, kidneys start excreting it)If they also test for keytones, then yes do need to do every day or two. This is potentially life threateneing and advised to do unitla kity is regulated.
Ketodiastix-not sure if they will come under the same name in Estonia? (they usually test for glucose as well as keytones.Vet should know about them)

Absouktely no dry food-this is your chance to cut it out straight off if he isn't on insulin yet (we did the same).

Btw-Sorry if your english isn't brilliant. Please say if you don't undertsand something and I will try and put in a different way.
Good on you for wanting to help your cat.Work is involved but if you nad your mum can do this together shouldn't have a major impact on your lives.

Did vet mention any insulins? Names of?

 

[margus92]

Is it important that the chicken is boiled? Would for example raw egg albumin also be suitable or any other alternatives?
Is there anything else to keep my eyes out for?
We do have friskies and whiskas.
At the moment we are taking her to the vet but so far she has been tested only once (second time will be on Saturday).
Would the devices from Kits for Cats be OK? Do they ship overseas?
I will try to find some ketone testers. What should be the action taken in case of elevated ketone levels?
Don't worry I can understand it all and if i would run into unfamiliar words i can use a dictionary
The vet will give us more information on Saturday (hopefully) and fill us in on the required information for future actions. What are the chances of the vet not really knowing what to do?

 

[kate and lucky]

You can feed raw meat as a supplement but not something I'm familiar with. I just boiled chciken as it's high in protein and negligible carbs. Used it for a treat as well (when hometesting).
Egg isn't a natural food source for cats so I'd say stay clear.

Avoid any gravy foods-tend to be high in carbs.
Can you get Whiskas Mmm? This is only 1% but they seem to have stopped making it in Germany/UK.
Not sure of the ingredients for friskies. If you've got some, post the ingredients (%) and can work out the carbs for you. Will be something like 82% moisture, ..% ash,..%fat etc.
If you can get Whiskas in Jelly then this is around 8% which is a good start.

Not heard of kits for cats. (tried googling and didn't come up with anything)You could look at the top of this forum and you'll see a post by lori and Tom on newbie kits. A lot of people pay forward and donate glucometers and a few strips for newbies (you :mrgreen: ).
Or you can get them from a local pharmacy-one touch ultra/accu check aviva. I found them cheaper off ebay but it depends how long you would have to wait. Strips you really want to try and get off ebay as I have never seen them anywhere cheaper.It looks as if you could buy off the UK one.
Does your cat get stressed at vets? Can raise their bg's significantly. Luckys bg could go up as much as 100 points!

As for vet not really knowing what they are doing-how long is a piece of string!! They all know the basics (or should do) but can be way behind on current research, which includes which are the best insulins (Lantus/Levemir) to use. They dose on actual weight of a cat and it should be ideal weight (what they should be). We start low. go slow here so wouldn't start more than 1u twice a day (written as BID)

I would read as much information from this site as possible before you go on Saturday, write a list of questions for the vet, should work out quickly whether they are well informed or not. (my first 3 vets scoffed/laughed at the fact I got advice from here. Very dismissive, yet this board saved my cats life! as vet hypo'd her on first shot!)

Elevated keytone levels require emergency vet intervention-often intravenous drip etc. Sometimes if they have trace you can treat from home with vetinary advice, but in the main this is where you would need a vet.

Keep asking (you seem to have a good dictionary-I'm ashamed my second language skills are rubbish like most English people!!!) :mrgreen:

 

[Jen & Squeak]

Actually, cooked egg whites are just fine but shouldn't be expected to be a main protein source.

For someone who has english as a second language (or third or ?), you are doing great !

Jen

 

[margus92]

You can feed raw meat as a supplement but not something I'm familiar with. I just boiled chciken as it's high in protein and negligible carbs.

What about pork and other meats? Should those be avoided?

If you've got some, post the ingredients (%) and can work out the carbs for you. Will be something like 82% moisture, ..% ash,..%fat etc.

I will try to make a vague list of the foods available here. The Royal Canin dry food for diabetics which we are giving her at the moment (I'll stick to the vet's advice until the test on Saturday and some more information so he can't say we somehow made it more difficult to decide on a treatment accurately) has the following written on the back (among other text):

...
Ingredients: dehydrated poultry meat, soy protein isolate*, maize, flour, wheat gluten*, barley, maize gluten, animal fats, vegetable fibers, hydrolyzed animal proteins, bet bulp, minerals, psyllium husks and seeds, fish oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, potassium citrate, soy oil, taurine, hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), L-carnitine, hydrolized cartilage (source of chondoroitin)
Average analysis: Protein 46%, fat 12%, ash 6,4%, fiber 4,6%, essential fatty acids 2,81%, starch 17,4%, total sugars 1,9%
Additives: vitamins per kg: A: 2600IU, D3: 900IU, E 550 mg; copper (copper sulphate and chelated copper): 20mg/kg, presevative: potassium sorbate, antioxydants: propyl gallate, BHA
...
For RSA: guaranteed analysis g/kg: min crude protein 440, max moisture 85, min crude fat 100, max crude fiber 56, max crude ash 70
...
*I.I.P. : protein selected for its very high assimilation

We are currently giving her about 80g per day as the package advises for a 4,2 kg normal weight cat. Or should we just keep her bowl filled to the edge?

Not heard of kits for cats.

It actually is a page I think I got from this page. I couldn't find it at the moment but I will shuffle through my browsing history and post it if I do find it. I am positive I did not make it up
Edit: Found it!! http://kitsforcats.webs.com/

Does your cat get stressed at vets? Can raise their bg's significantly. Luckys bg could go up as much as 100 points!

She completely panics, when lifted she seems to ave no bones and she did try (and even succeeded (though merely a single scratch) when at 1 moment we weren't holding her paws) to rip the vet up. Still the vet said that 11 should be normal and she had 23.1 (not 21.3 as I said previously, mixed it up a bit). In your units it should be 198 and 414.

For someone who has english as a second language (or third or ?), you are doing great !
Jen

Well I started off with it when I was about 3 (some school-like organisation, but not yet preschool where we did all kinds of stuff that I mostly can't remember but the English part involved some games and nursery rhymes)
And then in 4th grade started with Russian and in 10th grade with German, also took a Norwegian course for a few month but let that be as I just did not have time.

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

For information on a raw diet, see this page by a vet: http://www.catinf.org She explains how to make it and what supplements to add. (Hoping they will be available to you.)

If Miisu is really stressed at the vet, the sooner you can test her levels at home, the better. Blood glucose levels are influenced by stress - it raises them, sometimes, more than 100 points. So if the insulin dose is based on these levels caused by stress, it means the dose may be too high once the kitty is home and relaxes. Also, you want to be able to test her at home before you give each shot, so you know it is safe.

Here is a good beginning site for information on testing at home: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm and a video that shows how: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 We use human glucometers just like human diabetics do, so they should be available. You want one that sips the blood and that takes a tiny sample.

Keep asking questions! We will try to answer them. We have a number of people in England and Germany and even Switzerland, I think. You may be our first member from Estonia. Welcome!

 

[margus92]

Today's test results:

 

[margus92]

Could anyone please interpret them to me?

 

[Jana+BK+Chester(GA)+Wilbur]

I don't know about the rest, but I see GLU (glucose) is high...exactly what you would expect from a newly diagnosed diabetic kitty.

 

[Karen & Smokey(GA)]

Is it important that the chicken is boiled? Would for example raw egg albumin also be suitable or any other alternatives?

Do not feed lare quantities of raw egg white to cats. Cooked egg white OK.

Raw egg whites contain the enzyme avidin, which reduces biotin (vitamin B7) absorption, potentially causing a deficiency. But research suggests that it would probably take relatively high amounts of raw egg white (one or more raw eggs per day) on a regular basis to cause a biotin deficiency

 

[margus92]

Today's glucose level: 18,2 or 327,6 (if I multiplied by the correct coefficient, which as I remember was 18).
Also she is now on insulin. She got 3 units at the vet's and will have to get 3 twice a day according to the vet's saying.
She seems a bit more active now after the shot (atm 4 hours since that big cruel vet terrorized her with that awful needle (which she probably didn't even notice much if at all as when taking blood samples etc she always twitched but then she did not)). The idea of giving her insulin seems a bit intimidating but I am confident I will get the hand of it.
The insulin pen says "Protophane FlexPen" and "Insulin humanum (rDNA)" by Novo Nordisk A/S.

 

[kate and lucky]

You can feed raw meat as a supplement but not something I'm familiar with. I just boiled chciken as it's high in protein and negligible carbs.

What about pork and other meats? Should those be avoided?
Trying the quote reply thing, so please bear with me :roll:
I can't really comment on raw food as never did it myself.Need to read the various links. You want the nutrition information from FDMB
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=115

If you've got some, post the ingredients (%) and can work out the carbs for you. Will be something like 82% moisture, ..% ash,..%fat etc.

I will try to make a vague list of the foods available here. The Royal Canin dry food for diabetics which we are giving her at the moment (I'll stick to the vet's advice until the test on Saturday and some more information so he can't say we somehow made it more difficult to decide on a treatment accurately) has the following written on the back (among other text):

...
Ingredients: dehydrated poultry meat, soy protein isolate*, maize, flour, wheat gluten*, barley, maize gluten, animal fats, vegetable fibers, hydrolyzed animal proteins, bet bulp, minerals, psyllium husks and seeds, fish oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, potassium citrate, soy oil, taurine, hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), L-carnitine, hydrolized cartilage (source of chondoroitin)
Average analysis: Protein 46%, fat 12%, ash 6,4%, fiber 4,6%, essential fatty acids 2,81%, starch 17,4%, total sugars 1,9%
Additives: vitamins per kg: A: 2600IU, D3: 900IU, E 550 mg; copper (copper sulphate and chelated copper): 20mg/kg, presevative: potassium sorbate, antioxydants: propyl gallate, BHA
...
For RSA: guaranteed analysis g/kg: min crude protein 440, max moisture 85, min crude fat 100, max crude fiber 56, max crude ash 70
...
*I.I.P. : protein selected for its very high assimilation

We are currently giving her about 80g per day as the package advises for a 4,2 kg normal weight cat. Or should we just keep her bowl filled to the edge?
Can't quite work it out from this. %moisture, fat, fibre,ash,,protein-just gives an approximate value if you can give the %'s of these things.The carbs are more important in a way than the protein.If cat needs to put weight on, something like fresh boiledchicken will soon bump up protein content and is negligible carbs.

Not heard of kits for cats.

It actually is a page I think I got from this page. I couldn't find it at the moment but I will shuffle through my browsing history and post it if I do find it. I am positive I did not make it up No probs, I don't doubt you :mrgreen:
Edit: Found it!! http://kitsforcats.webs.com/

Does your cat get stressed at vets? Can raise their bg's significantly. Luckys bg could go up as much as 100 points!

She completely panics, when lifted she seems to ave no bones and she did try (and even succeeded (though merely a single scratch) when at 1 moment we weren't holding her paws) to rip the vet up. Still the vet said that 11 should be normal and she had 23.1 (not 21.3 as I said previously, mixed it up a bit). In your units it should be 198 and 414.
This is a tad concerning as vet sounds as if they have dosed based on this number and possibly cats actual weight when should be ideal weight.

For someone who has english as a second language (or third or ?), you are doing great !
Jen

Well I started off with it when I was about 3 (some school-like organisation, but not yet preschool where we did all kinds of stuff that I mostly can't remember but the English part involved some games and nursery rhymes)
And then in 4th grade started with Russian and in 10th grade with German, also took a Norwegian course for a few month but let that be as I just did not have time.

Wow!!! That really is going some!

I'm worried that you have started on 3u. Ethos of this board is start low go slow. Usually 1u.
Tried a search but can't work out which insulin you are on. Any chance you can ring vets and ask?
Athough insulins all do the same job, the way you monitor them and to a degree dose them is dictated by which insulin you use. Some are fast acting, intermediate acting and slow acting. This then affects what numbers you see at certain times through the cycle (short acting insulins for example htend to run out of steam around +10 hours after the shot has been given whereas longer acting insulins can carry on working past 12 hours after shot.

Because it can be a minefield it is another reason for starting slowly so you remain in control and limit the chance of kitty going into a hypo.
I may be off the borad within the next couple of days for a at least a few days, hopefully there are others whop will keep an eye out ofr you, so if you can find out what insulin your on, also post in the insulin support group for that insulin and ask for help with the dosing. This is where vets often fall down (such as prescribing 3u-it's actually quite a high starting dose for a cat)
Good luck :mrgreen:

Now lets see if this quote thing has worked!!!

 

[margus92]

Some online formula gave me that according to her weight the initial should be 3.2-3.5 or something like that. The vet said that in his mind 3u is a small dosage and that sometimes he has given 4-5u as an initial dosage.
Some info I managed to find:
http://drugs-about.com/drugs-i/insulin- ... expen.html
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/doc ... 044213.pdf

Just gave the 1st shot today. She didn't quite like it but I think it is mostly my inexperience that caused that. How quickly should I inject the solution. I mean after I have penetrated the skin should I just jam the syringe and pull it out fast to keep the time in to a minimum or should I do it slowly and gently? Which would be the best locations on her body to poke with a needle?

 

[margus92]

The list of the Hill's foods at the vet's office (the ones with a dot are available both as dry food and as "real" food):
Rd.
Wd.
Jd
Cd.
Sd.
Kd.
Id.
Ad
Hd
Dd
Ld.
Only dry food
Td
Md
Zd

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

Here's a site that helps with giving the shot; maybe it will help: http://felinediabetes.com/injections.htm We gave in the scruff of the neck, just in and plunge and out. It does help to have a 30-31 gauge needle. For some cats, the 29 seems really big. Also, are you warming up the insulin in the syringe for a few minutes before giving the shot? Cold insulin can sting.

On the food charts, all of Hills are pretty high. AD is 13, CD is 22, MD is the lowest at 14 and WD is 26%. We try to feed 8-10% What do you have available in the stores? Anything that is in jelly or a pate? You want a food without any gravy. Could you order food from the UK? They have several varieties that work.

 

[margus92]

We have a variety from friskies, whiskas (supreme, junior, adult), purina (including gourmet (gold)), dr stern, kitekat.
Non of there state the amount of carbs on the the packaging (althou all the other stuff like fat, ash etc is there)

 

[Jana+BK+Chester(GA)+Wilbur]

Please get the information from the packaging (it may be available on the manufactuer's web site) and post it here, so that the carbs can be calcuated.

 

[Blue]

What's wrong with the Friskies?? I feed mine friskies Turkey & Giblets and they like it just fine.
Here is Binky's list that gives you lots of food choices with the carb info:
Binky’s Food Lists

Here's some food info that I think someone gave already (sorry for the repeat)
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition

Starting at 3unit? Wow, too high I think, so here is some info on hypo:
List of Hypo symptoms
How to treat HYPOS – They can kill! Print this out!
Jojo’s HYPO TOOLKIT

I don't know if this link is the most current, but setting up a spreadsheet to track your numbers when you are testing is here:
Spreadsheet setup instructions

Here's a calculator you can use to convert the numbers you get to those the others on this board understand:
BG Conversion Calculator

Testing your cat at home is the best way - why stress your cat out for no reason, just to get a number that is no good as it's from stress! One of my cats goes very high at the vet and the other goes very low at the vet office!
Testing on cat’s ear

What else? I am sure there is more but just ask if you need more info about something and there will be someone here to help and to answer.

 

[margus92]

Now she is better. 3 units (U-100) was not enough it got ramped up to 5 and then back down to 4. BG was 9,6 (173) last time when checked.

On a slightly different topic: do you know if purring and the lovely way they move their paws when they are pleased with petting or going to sleep are just reflexes cats have or do they decide to purr and do that?

 

[Traci and Boomer]

Now she is better. 3 units (U-100) was not enough it got ramped up to 5 and then back down to 4. BG was 9,6 (173) last time when checked.

On a slightly different topic: do you know if purring and the lovely way they move their paws when they are pleased with petting or going to sleep are just reflexes cats have or do they decide to purr and do that?

It's my understanding that cats purr and knead when they are happy; the kneading is what they did as kittens nursing from their mom - they have to knead to help the milk flow. My vet told me when they do this they are re-living thier kittenhood!

You are doing a fabulous job! I looked on my map and saw where Estonia is. I'll bet it's a gorgeous country!

 

[margus92]

I looked on my map and saw where Estonia is. I'll bet it's a gorgeous country!

It is! Especially the old mansions and the countryside. The things we call mountains in the southern parts and the sheer amount of forests. On the other hand (probably because i have lived here and enjoyed it and used to it) for me the real mountains in Northern Italy were much more breathtaking.


The thing about kneading rang a bell. I in fact have heard that and just forgot...
And with purring is it still the cat's decision or does it happen automatically when the cat is pleased, comfy and happy. Quite impossible to prove without some really high-tech equipment and lots of research

 

[Traci and Boomer]

Is purring the cat's decision????

Wow - I've never really thought about it that way. Does anyone know? Something in my thinks it's the cat's decision but I'm not sure!

I hope your Miisu is doing well.

 

[margus92]

She is doing well, but she has started stealing an lying a lot more
And seems to have developed telekinetic powers.