Max Not Regulated. ???

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tiffmaxee

tiffmaxee

Member Since 2013
Max woke me this morning meowing and then drinking water, which he only does with diabetes. His AMPS was 328. He's been on .75 since Saturday night and except for that one night 74 has not tested lower than mid 200's. He's eating only fancy feast classics chicken and liver or turkey. I goofed for the only time and I opened a chunky chicken that is 10% carbs but he only got 1/2 a can. Tell me this will get easier. Thanks.

Elise
 
Re: Max Not Regulated

Hi guys .. I know this can be hard to deal with .. and yes, it does get easier .. Not saying there won't be frustrating days ahead of you but overall, it will get easier .. Just remember we've all been there and understand the frustration, so feel free to vent to us .. we can take it ;-) have a great weekend!
 
Re: Max Not Regulated

Hi Elise,
It looks to me that Max is bouncing from the 74 the other night. It can take up to 72 hours to "clear" a bounce. When a cat gets a blood glucose number that is lower than what he is used to, his liver kicks in to send the glucose up again. This is normal and part of the "sugar dance". "Regulation" doesn't happen over night! And you have very little data for the nighttime cycles, so you don't really know where Max has been. In any event, I suspect that you will be raising his dose soon, but that you should hold this dose today and see what happens. In the meantime, please put the "?" and "dosing?" in your subject line of your first post of the day to get some experienced eyes on Max's SS.

Feline diabetes is complex and every cat is different. Just do your reading (the "Stickies" at the top of the LL forum) and ask questions. Don't expect quick solutions. FD is, as they say, a marathon--not a sprint.

Welcome to Lantus Land. This is my first visit to your condo. Do you know how to link your condo to the preceding day's condo? You "right click" (PC) or "control click" (Mac) the subject line. Go up to the "Edit" tab on your browser, click it, and choose "copy link" (or "copy"). Then go back to the main body of your post, click the URL button and the will appear. Put the cursor between the two URL brackets, go back up to "Edit" and click "paste". We do this so that people can see what advice/support was given in previous days.

Best of luck to you and Max,

Ella & Rusty

p.s. here is the link to your yesterday's condo: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=112431
 
Re: Max Not Regulated

Hi there :cool:
Haven't seen you around - Welcome!

tiffmaxee said:
He's been on .75 since Saturday night and except for that one night 74 has not tested lower than mid 200's
Click to expand...
True, he hasn't tested lower however I see only 2 PM cycles that have a test other than the PS. that's not enough data to make a good assessment. it's quite possible that he has indeed seen lower numbers. Check out the spreadsheets of some other kitties (skip mine - he was an unusual case) and you will notice a pattern of lower numbers during the overnight. Getting more tests during the overnight cycle would help reveal the true picture. Try to vary the times so that if you step back and look at the ss you will see colors sprinkled throughout rather than large sections with no data. The more data you collect the better. Not only will it help you, it will help those who are willing to help you.

I can't tell you it will be easy, every kittys journey is different.

I can tell you this is the best place to be - no doubt about it :cool:
 
If it's not completely obvious from the posts today and from your earlier thread, we're a lot more data driven here than the folks on the Relaxed board. If the goal is to get Max regulated or into remission, then the data is your best friend (in my opinion)!

I'm glad to see you've been getting a test during the PM cycle. That's helping us understand what Max is up to. Like Ella said, it looks like he's bouncing and a bounce can take several days to clear.

As others have noted, getting your kitty into better numbers takes time. One of the big lessons this process and Lantus teaches you is patience.
 
Hi Elise,

My name is Laura and our little sugarbaby is Zeke. Zeke is 11 years old and was diagnosed with FD in July 2013. We been following the tight regulation protocol since August.

I looked back at your original post and I must say, to already have been dealing with Max’s chronic pancreatitis, for over four years, and managing his high blood pressure and now FD, it’s obvious that you are an incredibly loving and devoted mamabean to your little Max. cat_pet_icon He’s one very lucky little kitty to have you taking care of him.

tiffmaxee said:
I goofed for the only time and I opened a chunky chicken that is 10% carbs but he only got 1/2 a can. Tell me this will get easier.
Elise
Click to expand...

There are quite a few things that I’ve learned over the course of these last 5 months that have definitely helped make it easier. One thing my DH and I do is mark the percent carbs on each can of food that we have in the house. Earlier on, for the higher carb foods, I also marked MC or HC as a reminder to myself. This info came in handy when dealing with very low numbers during a cycle - a time that can be very stressful and handled more efficiently if you’re not having to fumble about trying to determine what food to feed. In addition, marking the cans makes it a lot less likely that you’ll feed a higher carb food than intended. The first time I made that mistake, I was so upset as you can see from this post.

You’ve come to the right place for guidance on handling FD and obtaining information on other feline related health issues as well. Is there anything else in particular that you’re having difficulty with at this time? Feel free to ask any and all questions you may have. We’re a family here and are always eager to provide information and support at any time. As has been suggested, if you haven’t already, be sure and ready the sticky’s available on the Lantus (Glargine)-Tight Regulation home page.

Wishing you and Max the best.
 
Hello, and welcome to Lantus Land.

The others have given you great input with regards to getting Max regulated. This doesn't happen overnight, and it'll take a whole lot of perserverence (sp), patience, and time. I know you feel discouraged, and more than likely impatient. We've all been there, and we're still there, I'm sure. It's taken me quite a long time to get my kitty, Blackie, regulated, and now we're pretty much there. I would love to get her into remission, however, only she will tell me that in her own time, IF it ever happens.

You will find through trial and error moments what will work for Max, and what won't. Over time, you'll learn how to manage his weight, his food amounts, what foods will work for him to help bring his #s down, what times to feed him, how those feeding times affect his #s, and so forth.

Just give it time, and hang in there. This is not a marathon. You WILL get there. Keep posting his #s in the spread sheet, and keep asking questions, no matter how redundant they may seem to you. We're all here to help you. :-D
 
Thanks for the encouragement. The thing that is getting me so down is how quickly he responded upon his diagnosis in November. We really thought with the food change from fancy feast sliced which is high carb to the classics and the month on lantus he was in remission. He had that 3 week reprieve and then resumed lantus and since then I don't see anything close to the good results we saw at first. I had been trying to avoid CKD with lower phosphorus foods as my other cats developed it and here we are with this. Max needs to eat small amounts often to avoid pancreatitis and stress if possible. At first I thought I wouldn't be able to test him but did start. He is not liking it and yes he gets 100% protein treats after each test. I've worked up to testing 3-4 times a day which is proving to be more stressful for both of us. I'll try to link up all my original posts with the instructions that one of you kind people left for me. I'm not that computer savy. In fact I have 2 spreadsheets out there and only one is linked here so I just post on both.
 
I'm sorry that you're feeling down, and it's totally understandable. We've all been there. I still feel discouraged now and then, too, but I just keep on keeping on. Someone on here once told me... In order to go down in #s you need to up in doses. Simply follow the protocol just like you've been doing, and always asking questions, especially dosing questions, and someone with more knowledge than I have will come by to help you. His #s will improve over time, and always be consistent with the doses. That is they key. Remember that with each new dose that you give him, whether it's an increase or a decrease, there may be some bouncing involved, and those will clear. Depending upon how long it takes to clear a bounce will depend on the kitty. Every cat is different (ECID). The same thing may apply to food, too. If you're changing foods or the amounts of food, it also may create a bounce, which will clear. Some cats don't get affected with food amounts, brands or flavors whereas others may.

Depending upon what the treats are they may be influencing his #s, too. If you think that the treats may be causing a slight rise in his #s, try brushing as a treat after he gets tested instead of a food treat, even as an experiment if you'd like. Also, try a rice sock warmed in the microwave for a few seconds and then place it on his ear to warm it before testing. It may help to ease the stress of the constant pokes. Max will get used to being tested as well. Try and stay calm when you're testing him. Remember cats, just like all other animals, are very receptive to our emotions. They sense when you're upset, which will make them upset.

Keep up the excellent work. It will get easier as you go along. And don't forget to ask questions. We're all here to help you. :smile:
 
Re: Max Not Regulated. ??? AMPS 324 +7 289

His treats are freeze dried 100% protein with absolutely nothing added. Nothing has changed since we began this journey in November except that I started home testing. Before that we went to my vet once or twice a week. He tells me not to test so much but rather do only at +6-7 a few times a week. Now I am testing 4 times a day. When this started I posted to tight regulation but when I saw how often you test I switched to relaxed. I'm not sure where I fit in yet. I see the point to find his nadir as well as to see if he gets low at night. I'm trying to vary his test times to see if I can get the info without too many daily tests. He did so well in November so I don't understand why after just a 3 week break this is so hard. I got my hopes up that the lower carb food would put him in remission and thought we were there. That makes what is happening now so much harder. Maybe I needed that to give me time to get used to home testing but poor Max is back to hiding under the bed more than ever. One of my FSP list friends says a curve doesn't make her feel so good because she never gets the same results twice. I think pancreatitis complicates everything. Funny thing is if I didn't know he had diabetes I would be happy right now because he is eating. When he has a panc episode he becomes inappetent.
 
Hi Elise, and welcome to both you and extra sweet Max!

I have some ideas for you on the testing. Decide on where you want to test, and as many times a day as you can manage, just take Max there, give him a little ear rub, a tiny (but yummy!!) treat and let him go.

As you do this more and more, he'll start to associate the testing spot with the treats, and not so much the poking. It may take some time, but I've suggested the same thing for many others on this group, and the vast majority ended up with their sugarcats going to their testing spot and meowing at THEM to remind them it's time!! It really does get easier, we promise!!

Yes, this is a frustrating sugardance we're all doing. China had been doing really great...until tonight. If you take a look at her spreadsheet, you'll see that lately, she's had very great numbers, and very few 300+'s. So why did she bounce so high tonight? Because she's a cat, and cats like to keep us guessing!!

Hang in there! There aren't always any easy answers to the "why?" question. All any of us can do is follow the protocol, pray, and support each other when things get tough.
 
Welcome to LantusLand!! Yes, this does take time, but the good news is that it does get easier, too!! You've gotten some good advice today...and the best advice I can reiterate is to ask as many questions as you need, and lean on us as well. We've all been where you are at one point in time, so we do know how you feel. It takes time to adjust to having a diabetic kitty - for both of you - but it truly does eventually happen. As others have said before me...LantusLand is the best place you never wanted to be. We'll do our best to help you with both technical and emotional support!!
 
it is frustrating, especially since you had a little glimpse of better numbers that made you think you'd gotten him OTJ. pancreatitis does make it harder to get cats regulated.

while none of us can predict how things will go, i feel really confident in telling you that it will get easier as you learn more. none of it is easy, but after taking care of punkin for a while, i realized one time that i could test, shoot and feed him while i was talking on the phone. and it was over in 5 minutes max. it became so routine for me that i didn't worry as much. and i mostly understood what was going on in his little body, which also relieved some stress. knowledge is power, you know?! it's very true.

if Max takes the full 72 hours to come down from this bounce, that would be in the middle of the night on Saturday night. he might come down sooner, but the high numbers you're seeing now might stick around until then. some kitties even go a little bit longer. you'll want to hold the dose until then to let that bounce clear. we don't increase on a bounce because then when he comes down from the bounce, he might be overdosed. we'll know the bounce has cleared when you're seeing numbers back in greens or maybe blues again. so just hang in there.

by the way, you're doing a fabulous job at getting a nice variety of tests, including the pm cycle one. as time goes on, the picture will become clearer and clearer what a dose is doing for Max.

hang in there!!! :YMHUG:
 
Hi Chris. I've been doing exactly what you suggest. He doesn't fight it but he jerks his head away every stick and sometimes the blood ends up on my hand or the counter and them I have to squeeze and hope I get enough blood to test without a second stick. He hides even more than ever too.When my sister's cat had diabetes they never tested at home. Maybe that is why she urinated all over the house but shelved to be nearly 18. Thanks for the suggestion.

Elise
 
if there's enough on you, you can test the blood off of it. we had a couple of times that i thought we looked like a crime scene! you'd get the poke and here came too much blood, and punkin would shake his head! :lol: blood spatters everywhere.

then i'd test one of the splatters if it was pooled enough!

knowing what i know now, i'd never give insulin to a cat without testing. too many times someone posts on the Main Health board and they've just gotten their first test and it's in the 30's. there is a difference between diabetic dogs, people and cats. dogs and people are much easier to get regulated. dogs can get a dose set at the vet's and then stay with that dose for a year without problems.

if you keep a cat high enough i suppose you wouldn't need to test, but then you've got organ damage going on from the high blood sugar. if you keep a cat in normal numbers, they have the unique ability to have their pancreas heal and go off of insulin. however, if their pancreas begins producing insulin, you've gotta reduce what you're shooting so that you don't give the cat more than it needs between what it's producing and what you're injecting. people and dogs don't heal and go off insulin, according to what i've read. so it's a good thing overall, but it can make it harder to treat a cat.
 
Re: Max Not Regulated. ??? PMPS 317

Just tested Max and his PMPS is 317. We are completing day 6 on the .75 dose but he did have that one low number. Do I hold tight until Monday when I talk to my vet? Thanks.

Elise
 
You want to wait at least 72 hours after Max gets an "unusually" low number. His liver has gotten used to higher numbers, so when he goes lower, Mr. Liver "panics" and sends out hormones and sugars to bring it back up to where he's "used to" it being. This is called a "bounce"

We want to make sure he's done "bouncing" before thinking about increasing, since when the "bounce" breaks, he could come down quickly, and if you've increased his insulin, it could go TOO low...which would just set him up to bounce again, as well as possibly scaring you half to death!

Just hold the .75 for now. If his nadirs (the lowest numbers he gets during the cycles) don't come down by Sunday morning, we might want to increase then, but not before then.

Also, if you can get the blood on your fingernail, that's a good way to test too. Just "slide" your nail under the drop, let Max go, and test from there! It can take a little practice, but you can do it!
 
you're now counting 72 hrs from the low number. so the first opportunity for increasing the dose would be sunday morning, IF he has cleared the bounce he's in right now.

the more he sees green numbers, the more his body will get used to them. eventually most cats stop bouncing from them as they get used to it.
 
Thanks. You know we ran a fructosamine 12/30/13 and it was normal so he hasn't had diabetes for too long or would that be considered a long time?

Elise
 
if you have a chance, would you do a profile on max? Here's the link to directions. That would put all this important information in one place for us so you don't have to keep repeating yourself and anyone helping you doesn't miss some important information.

As well as the basic info they suggest, it would be helpful if you included the info that isn't on Max's spreadsheet.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=79123

it's good that he hasn't been diabetic too long!
 
Thank you for that. I meant to check on the way the bevel should be but kept forgetting. He hasn't budged since his night shot. Now it's 323. I'll do a profile this weekend or Monday.

Elise
 
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