Loki mystery #'s and all

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I agree with 1/2 unit (.5u). But I thought you were going to give 1/2 unit last night?

We now know that 1.5 unit is too much insulin.
 
ohmygod_smile I was supposed to give him 1/2 and gave him 1 1/2 oh boy I feel like such an idiot. I am so so sorry. This is totally on me. Man I feel so bad. Will check him at +4 and update.
 
You don't mean this morning, right? You mean the 1.5 last night. Not your fault. You will notice when more than one person is replying to your thread (like last night with Carl, Robin and me) we tend to toss ideas around before we decide. Meanwhile, you are sitting there thinking "Come on people, tell me what to shoot" What might help is to always, just before shooting, ask point blank -" I am planning on giving #units in 5 minutes. Is that correct?" Then make sure one of us replies.

1.5 on a 300 would normally be a reasonable amount. I think our idea is that because he is reacting so strongly to the doses above one unit, it may be time to give .5 or so regardless of the number, to see how he reacts. You notice we don't come on and yell: "you shot WHAT?" We ask you to get a number in a few hours to see how he is headed. We want to have you monitor him carefully if the dose might have been a little high, but we don't want to panic you.

Last night turned out fine. (The proof is that he is fat and happy this morning.) This whole thing is an incredible learning curve, Michelle, and feels like a roller coaster at first. You are both doing fine. He is in safe numbers and eating and acting like a cat. That is the important stuff.
 
Thanks so much for the cyber hug Sue ( hope I took that right?) Loki is at 231 +7 Just got in from a great afternoon with a friend I had not seen in 6 years. Updated his SS also, will update again at his next check with should be at +10.
I have no clue where Loki and I would be without you guys and this site. Thanks again.
 
OK just did Loki's 10+ and he is at 357---- Did give him only 1/2 of a 3oz can earlier because he was hungry, in fact he is looking for the rest but wanted to post here first. I still have 2 hrs to go before I check his +12, can you guys advise me if he stays at the 357 or goes higher how much do you think he would need?
Thanks.
 
I hope Carl and Robin weigh in. The 1.5 was too much, but .5 may be too little. It didn't do much today. I am thinking one unit with a before bed test, but let's see what they say. You have some time before you have to shoot.

Is this +12 from the .5 this am? Will that mess up your schedule again?

Yes, it was a cyber ((hug)). You're welcome to one whenever you need it. :YMHUG:
 
I don't think we can judge the .5u just yet because he is going into a bounce. I would go along with 1 unit for tonight as long as he is still high.

But once the bounce clears I would go back to a dose somewhere between .5 or .8u.

I hope it wasn't what I said that made you feel bad. That was not my intention. Group hug. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
Oh Rob, no way was it anything you said, it was me realizing that I am still very stressed with all this and so want to do right for my boy, he is such a champ that I feel like I let him down sometimes KWIM?
He is at 320 +12 right now, still need to give him the rest of his food another 1 1/2 oz and then 1 unit like you said.
I have to admit I am exhausted with all this for me and my boy, will continue as long as it takes for him. Sometime I cannot believe how much I love this cat.
Thanks again for being here for us.
Will update in the am....

Michele + Loki
 
Poo, I couldn't get on earlier....

I have a different take on last night's dose of 1.5, and whether it was too much. My opinion is "too early to tell". Yes, it presented you with a "problem" this morning because you got a low preshot number. BUT, just my opinion, that doesn't lead to a conclusion that it was too much insulin.

Here's some stuff from last night's discussion:
1/2 unit would be good to try. Assuming you see a number north of 200, of course.
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That's what I said when you had just posted that you got a 164, and were going to test again in 2 hours.
You did that, and saw a surprising 305. You shot 1.5u, and fed a spoonful of food. After I saw that, I thought "awesome, good choice!"
Then Sue asked you to check at +3, but you had signed off for the evening.
Had you tested at +3, and seen a low number, I would have told you to feed again and to to bed. That would have probably prohibited a big drop later on but no big deal. I don't think he went really low, or any lower than the AMPS number you got today.

So, this morning you saw a 65! And went :o :shock: :o :lol:
I would have been dancing if I saw a 65 at AMPS! I would have thought "THIS IS GREAT!!! His number is "normal"!!! Woot!!!
And I would have skipped the shot, not worried all day, and tested at +11 tonight to see what Loki had to say about it. I would have expected a high number since it would have been 23 hours without a shot, but I would have been ready for whatever the meter came up with.
But you fed him? (did you feed at the 65 or did you withhold food?), and got a 296 at +2. OK, that's fine. But then I would have done exactly what you did last night. Gave him 1.5u again, and see what happened this time. I would have been praying for another 65 tonight actually. And would have danced again.

I guess what it comes down to with me is that I am tickled pink whenever I see a green number. I don't care if it's +4, +6 or +12. Green is "normal". I'll figure out what to "do about it" later, just show me a green number on the meter. In my mind, it's a heck of a lot easier to "do something about" green numbers than it is to do something about every other color in the BG rainbow. There's only one direction to go from green. Up. Two ways to do that. Withhold insulin, or feed food. If you withhold insulin, the number ain't going down. If you feed, it ain't going down.

At "shot time", if you see a low number, don't give him any food. The BG will come up on it's own, and when it does, you can shoot a reduced dose late. Or you can shoot a normal dose late. As long as you are doing the feeding right before you give insulin, the "timing" of the food and the insulin will be in sync. You don't want to feed, and then shoot a couple of hours later, because then you've given the food a "head start", and the boost in the BG from eating will taper off before the insulin kicks in, making the shot act like an "increased dose" because there's no food to fight off the drop that the insulin will cause.

Anyway, I'm the "voice" of differing advice much of the time, but that's the whole point of the board. Peer review and giving people options. It doesn't make one person right and another person wrong. They're just opinions. If any of us had all the answers, we'd just write a book, and then make millions of dollars.

Carl
 
Good morning all.
Loki is at 191 at his AMPS, so just fed him and felt I hope that he could use not quite 1/2 unit, it hard on these U40 needles, waiting for the wallmart here to get marked 100's. Will recheck him in at +2.
 
So, Michelle, we use this forum to have discussions in public so we can all learn from each other. I adore Carl and value him as an advice giver. But I disagree with this advice (giving 1.5 and be happy with a 65 amps) so here goes:

Carl, if she had a 65 at amps, we have to wonder if he was below 40 overnight. I think being in the 40s and below at night while not being monitored is not a safe practice. So when I see the 65, I do think reduce. If we'd see that 65 in combination with other numbers during the day, I would rejoice. (and I promise I will when it happens!)

I do agree completely with Carl that you can use food to change the numbers and you need to stop feeding him around shot time. Feeding at +10 is fine; the theory is that in 2 hours the food influence should wear off. But if you get a questionable number right at shot time, hold off and retest. He seems to come up right after +12 so you should be able to shoot before they gnaw your ankles off.

Let's see what happens today. I think your .5 this am was a nice safe dose but may leave him a little higher than we would like. If you had the U100 needles, we'd have the luxury of something more than .5 but less than one. Getting them is a good plan.

As Carl said, if we knew the answers, we'd write a book and be rich. I fully admit I am more conservative with dosing than Carl and quite often, too conservative. But that's where I am comfortable. So, your job is to read our ideas and go with what you think. The important thing for you to remember is that he is getting great numbers with a decreasing amount of insulin and he is feeling good. We'll figure out the doses as we go.
 
Thanks all and your right Sue for me to take all scenarios and see what I think works best. That said he is at 212+2, updated his SS also. Will recheck him again at + 6 I think that will give his ears and his mind time to rest. Will update then, if you guys think I should recheck him sooner let me know.
Thanks again.
 
A test at +6 is a good plan, Michelle. I'd also suggest one at +9 or +10. Looking at the SS, it seems that
Loki might be what we call a "late nadir" kitty, as it seems that many cycles the lower numbers come late in the cycle. And that's perfectly fine if true.

I think where Sue and I differ is here:
Sue asked "what if he was at 40 before that 65?"
I ask "what if the 65 was the lowest point?"

Either way, you don't shoot Prozinc on a 65 preshot. The only question is what you do shoot afterwards when you get a number that is high enough to shoot. That's the point where you will get different advice from each of us.

Carl
 
Hi Michele, I'm going to weigh in here too. This is peer reviewed advise in action.

I'm probably the most conservative one here, mostly because that was the approach I took with my own cat and luckily it worked out for us. I also work full time and wasn't able to monitor during the day and wanted to know that he was safe while I was away all day.

I think that any PS of 65 screams the dose is too high unless you are using one of the depot insulins, but you aren't. While finding the right dose is mostly trial and error while taking into consideration other factors like bounces, when food was given, will you be around to monitor or not, etc. I think you are on the right track and are doing really well.

I'd also like to point out that last night on a 300 number .5unit gave you a nice AMPS today.

Robin
 
Hi all,

At +6 Loki is at 290. Updated his SS also, but I have another issue that I need help with. I have to go out tonight (DH got tickets) and won't be here for his +10 or +12.... Oh man Any suggestions are welcome.
 
How late would the shot be? You may want to shoot early since he's already going high, but not before 10 hours after AMPS, depending on his number.
 
Quick note if you guys see this . I will be home tonight, the weather is pretty bad here with icy roads so no going anywhere. Why am I so happy for that LOL cause I need to be with my fur kid as much as possible till he is at least level.
 
Ok Loki is at 290 + 10 and he is starving (still adjusting to no dry food) so I fed him and put a little water in it to make him feel fuller also I gave him 1/2 unit and will recheck before bed since I know it will be higher because of food. I think he is adjusting pretty well considering his age and he has always had dry food out at all times, but when he gets hungry watch out, he really can be a cute bugger, but a little annoying :-D
 
Michelle, last night's dose isn't on the spreadsheet, but you gave 1 unit, and not .5. right?
I'm probably the most conservative one here, mostly because that was the approach I took with my own cat and luckily it worked out for us
Click to expand...
.

Michelle, just so you understand, the opposite held true for me and Bob. I'm the most aggressive, because that approach worked well for Bob. It would be natural for everyone here to have a bias towards what works best for their kitty.
While finding the right dose is mostly trial and error while taking into consideration other factors like bounces, when food was given, will you be around to monitor or not, etc. I think you are on the right track and are doing really well
Click to expand...
.
I agree 100%! You and Loki are doing fantastic:-)


I think that any PS of 65 screams the dose is too high unless you are using one of the depot insulins, but you aren't
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.
Don't quite agree with this however:-) Like I said last night, I am thrilled with a green number no matter when they appear. If they don't cause a bounce, I'm even more thrilled. In my opinion, it's much easier to deal with, and adjust treatment for, green numbers than it is to figure out how to make the pinks and reds go away.

Carl
 
Hi Carl and Bob
Good thing I keep a hard copy near his meter. I did give him 1/2 unit last night. I must have forgotten to add it to his SS. I will be rechecking him in 1hr or so he will be at +12 then and then again before I go to bed. I am working so hard on this trying to get rid of all those pinks and yellows. I want to see greens and blue but I understand all the factors now and sometimes no matter how much we do it may not work all the time.
I cannot give thanks enough for holding my hand through all this, with out you guys I probably would have said a final goodbye to my sweet boy but he is such a happy cat and so lovable that my guilt at making him go through this blind (me) would have been horrible. At least here I am trying as is he and you guys are along for the bumpy ride, for which I am so glad. Knowing that he is comfortable, has no pain, has a secure and happy life is all I can ask for.
I could go on and on :lol: but I am sure you guys have been through the same thing yourself and do not mind indulging me some. :YMHUG:
 
mimi4neeyah and Loki said:
Ok Loki is at 290 + 10 and he is starving (still adjusting to no dry food) so I fed him and put a little water in it to make him feel fuller also I gave him 1/2 unit and will recheck before bed since I know it will be higher because of food. I think he is adjusting pretty well considering his age and he has always had dry food out at all times, but when he gets hungry watch out, he really can be a cute bugger, but a little annoying :-D
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Sounds good, he is a cute bugger, being annoying is part of his charm. :-D
 
mimi4neeyah and Loki said:
Ok Loki is at 290 + 10 and he is starving (still adjusting to no dry food) so I fed him and put a little water in it to make him feel fuller also I gave him 1/2 unit:-D
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DId you shoot 1/2 unit at +10? If so you don't want to shoot again at +12.
 
Right Rob I though of that and he was so darn hungry I had to feed him, just want to check him again at +12 tonight as I usually check him before bed anyway.
Thanks :-D
 
Good morning all.
I got 343 this morning for AMPS and gave 1 unit with food, will recheck in 2-3 hrs and see how food has affected the #'s. I so did not want to see pink at all grr_red
 
I like the one unit better than the half. We have tried that twice and he gets a higher amps. Tonight, how about feeding him at +9 and then withholding any food until pmps and maybe we will have a "truer" number.
 
I like the dose too. Any way you can check between +5 and +7 today to see if you can find his nadir?

Carl
 
Hi, just did the +5 and got 213- Yellow better than pink. I think.
Will do a +7 and then a +9 with a little food till his +12. This is right I think from what I read?
Thanks
 
You can give him something to eat now, Michelle. I'd just like to see no food after +9 or +10 so we can get a pmps that isn't food inflated.
 
Excellent Sue, thanks. This should explain how hungry he is, he actually came down to the kitchen and walked right by the dog to get to me to beg for food :lol: He hates the dog
 
OK. Loki and I are back in the pink grr_red, he is at 365, he did eat 3 hrs ago, he had 3oz of FF. Thinking he needs 1 unit? Should I wait to shoot him (omg that sounds awful) or give him his shot now. I fixed the SS but to me it looks strange so will type here what we did today.
8 am- AMPS=343 ate 3 oz of FF
11 am- rechecked = 310
2 pm- rechecked = 213
5 pm- rechecked = 277 ate 3 oz of FF
8 pm- PMPS = rechecked = 365
Man have I got a headache.
 
Yes, I think one unit. You are at +12, right? (I am not sure why you are thinking to wait?) It was a smile curve, just generally too high.

If you gave insulin at +10 last night, and then at the regular time this am, you were really giving the shot at +14 for amps. That could have messed up the numbers today? Or am I wrong about all these times?
 
Yes, Sue I think it will work out that way, just saw your post so I just gave him 1 unit he is one hour late so tomorrow will have to give him his shot at 1/2 hr later than usual and then tomorrow night at his reg time. I hope I am understanding this right. Will be home all day tomorrow so will be around to check on him.
Also got the Relion lancets today and they are much easier for him than the ones I was using which were my hubby's who has type 2. Also picked up some antibiotic ointment with the pain stuff in it for his ears. He is getting some scar tissue on his ears so I hope this helps.
He loves his Bonito treats so much that when he see the container he jumps up on the bed where I test him and waits ;-) See you all tomorrow thanks again.
 
Good morning,
Did AMPS on Loki and he was 178, fed him and rechecked him 30 mimutes later and he was at 243 so I gave him 1/2 unit. Will recheck him in +2 and +3. Updated his SS also. Thinking of starting yet another tread, this one seems to be getting long, just like trying to see what the best dose is for Loki it's getting long.
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks
 
A new thread sounds like a good idea. The dose this morning should be fine.

We must not not be explaining this test/food thing right. When you get a low preshot and will need to retest, don't feed him. You want a retest without food, since food brings up bg levels on its own. So the new test, with food, may be higher than he really is and you might shoot more than he really needs.

Today should be okay. As a general rule, we think most cats' levels won't be influenced by food for 30 minutes or so. But every cat is different. Some might start right up after eating. The other complication is that, if the retest is still a little low, you can wait a little longer and see if it goes up. If you have fed, you really should wait 2 hours for the impact of the food to go away.

I know they are starving in the am. Have we suggested an automatic feeder? Then you could have it feed him 2 hours before your amps and you might be able to stall when you need to.

Does this make sense, Michelle?
 
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