Little Boy....Should I increase the dose?

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Anyname

Anyname

Member Since 2010
We started dosing on 12th June. I am not sure what damage is occurring whilst we wait for his numbers to come down. I think if we follow protocol we should increase the dosage.

We are guesstimating 4.25 units but may be erring on the side of 4 units. We've had only one green number in all this time and mostly the numbers are 150 - 220. Little Boy wants to eat every 3 - 4 hours and isn't satisfied with a snack. He has a small portion of fresh meat every 3 - 4 hours except when he goes without from 11pm till 5.30am. He wakes me desperate for food anytime from 5am. I keep thinking if I could feed him less his numbers would be better but he doesn't seem satisfied with less - hanging around begging for more. He can get shirty when we don't provide.

He has pretty much regained the weight he lost from undiagnosed diabetes. He is only eating raw fresh meat since dx.
 
Hi - can't give you dosing advice but I was just wondering what kind of raw fresh meat you are feeding him? Are you mixing anything in it for added nutrients or is it ground with bone and organs and stuff? Just wondering cuz I know that just muscle meat isn't a complete diet for kitties.

I'm sure someone will stop by with dosing advice soon...

Good luck!
 
Thanks Kasha, At the moment I think LB is in more danger from excess food than anything else. He's just discovered his pre prepared breakfast defrosting next to our bed and we haven't switched out the lights yet! I am concerned that his levels are still too high but he's already on a lot of insulin. If I give him human calcium how much should I give him daily and also the other thing that starts with t? Where do I buy that?

my greatest priority is dosing.
 
It's not a matter of adding just calcium to LB's diet. There's a broad range of vitamins and minerals that are necessary. Dr. Lisa Pierson's website on feline nutrition has a section on making cat food and includes a recipe that provides the types and amounts of supplements that are necessary to make food nutritionally complete.

I do think you have room to increase the dose. You may want to try to get more PM spot checks in. Many cats have lower numbers during the evening cycle and it looking like LB's numbers are improving.

(Do you know why the color coding isn't working on the US version of your SS? Maybe someone in the Tech Center can give you a hand with that.)
 
Well, I don't make my own food, but I know you need calcium and various vitamins from organ meat, as well as taurine... but you can either get a bunch of the supplements to mix in, grind up bones and organs with the meat or purchase ready-made mix-ins that are made go give a nutritionally complete diet when mixed with raw meat. You can find more info and links here:

Making Cat Food
 
Is Little Boy overweight? Because trying to feed as little as possible is not necessarily the answer. In other words, if he is not really overweight, I would feed him what he needs to feel comfortable. If he is overweight, I would feed him what he seems to need to be satisfied, and start backing off slowly from that amount if he is gaining or maintaining.

I do think that overall nutrition is important and would look into the supplements. Do you have an idea of how many calories he is eating per day with the meats? You could try comparing that to the number of calories in a can of, say, Fancy Feast and seeing if he is in a typical calorie range. Basil, who weighs about 12 1/2 pounds, eats a little over 2 1/2 cans of FF a day. Rosie (my civvy) eats 2 cans a day, but she is a smaller kitty and we are trying to help her continue to lose weight. She was very fat on dry food and we could not seem to regulate it.
 
Little Boy weights in the vicinity of 20lbs. He dropped to 18lbs at dx and he looked skinny. The vet wanted him to regain weight as a sign of recovery. However it's hard to know with such a big breed cat what is his ideal weight. He has some tummy fat.

We had a lot of trouble with our spread sheet and a very kind poster allowed us to set up a SS on her google docs. Our of curtesy to her we have recently worked hard to get the SS under our own google docs. We got help from the tech group to colour code our own SS but darling husband doesn't think he can do anything about the US one. Maybe he has to repeat the procedure he used to fix the world one.

I've included a rather silly youtube scene of me playing around with Little Boy. you can maybe see if you think he is too heavy. He has a very thick coat and it's winter here so his coat is at it's thickest. I will try to edge up the insulin a little. I suppose I need to do the math to see just how much insulin he is on relative to his size.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI5LiMG3MUg
 
That was a great video! I have no idea what you are saying to him - LOL! He's such a handsome boy...

He looks a little heavy in the video, but only when he was on his side and that's not really fair... You would know best whether you can feel his spine/ribs thru his fur... You should definitely be able to feel them, but they shouldn't stick out much either...

When my Kasha was at her heaviest, she had this broad little back and it looked like you could put a little saddle on her! Luckily for her, I had nothing of the sort...
 
Hello there!

Little Boy is not so little but he certainly is handsome!!!

With respect to your question, I agree with Sienne, you need to have add more tests in the evenings so we have a better picture of what is going on. We are currently missing half of the picture. For the sake of interest, have a look around at a few SS including Tizon's and you will see the difference in the AM and PM cycles.

And one last thing, but I suspect someone brought it up already so I don't want to dwell on the issue, you really need to get a reading before you shoot insulin. To me, it's the same as having your eyes open when you are walking around...

So.. bottom line, try to get some data this weekend and we (global we) will be able to better see and assess whether Little Boy's dose needs to be adjusted.

Have a great weekend.
 
::::So.. bottom line, try to get some data this weekend and we (global we) will be able to better see and assess whether Little Boy's dose needs to be adjusted.

I very much appreciate your honesty. I didn't think I would keep LB alive if he got a serious condition. My husband and I are retired and we want to travel (on the money we saved carefully all our lives) and go away spontaneously for weekends occasionally (we have many friends with seaside houses) or we want to go touring around Australia before we get too old. These next few years are the perfect time for us to finally enjoy our lives after we raised our family. We are finally free of obligation. But now we are house bound because of our cat. Tomorrow my husband is going away for a week, he's going to two places and one is to visit my 88yo father. I would go too if it wasn't for LB.

The folks here are sentimental about their cats and I am too about LB but part of me resents how we may have to spend the next few years restricting our movements daily because of our cat. ALL our friends tell us not to be so stupid. Last night one of us had to leave a dinner party with dear friends to drive 15 mins each way and give the cat its injection. If we don't do a PMPS test we get "oh you must test @ PMPS". Well we didn't test and LB survived. We are also being repeatedly told to test during the night.

I am not willing to set an alarm to wake up from the few precious hours of sleep I need to BG test my cat and I wouldn't think of suggesting it to my husband - he would ask me if I had lost my mind. I had a break down not that long ago and I need my sleep - if I am woken up I will not get back to sleep because all the things that worry me will keep me awake. I am not willing to put my own health at risk to blood glucose test LB during the night. Between 11pm and 7.30am are mine. It ain't gonna happen. Yes I'm willing to be a black sheep. I have my limits.

This site can be very negative. WE have done so much to try to measure up and mostly we get "you aren't doing this or that", rather than encouragement for how much we have achieved. Obviously I am the one at fault. But that's ok with me because I know I cannot/will not do any better. LB will die one day as we all will die. He's getting a better chance than a lot of cats. And he lives in the lap of luxury in our house eating food better than most people on the planet live on. I realise the real issue here is asking for advice. The members cannot give advice unless they know the things that they believe are necessary to work out what the situation is. Looking at the BG numbers I am fairly confident that LBs nightly numbers are not that different to his daily numbers but if they are it's too bad coz I am not waking up to test him.

I am going to ring the vet to talk about it and use my own common sense. I am grateful to the board for giving me the tools I need to do what I can do from the information I am able to gather. I won't compromise the site by asking for help when I don't follow the rules of the forum. BTW do people with diabetes wake up in the night to BG test themselves?

LB e wakes me at 5am for food which I keep next to my bed. I presume his numbers are quite low by then and he needs food. I try to perform this task in my sleep.

Marilyn
 
I suspect there's a misunderstanding. I know I did not suggest that you set an alarm and get up to test. In all of the time that Gabby's been diabetic, I've done that once. What I was suggesting is that before you go to bed, you get a test in. Likewise, at pre-shot times, it takes me all of 5 minutes to test, put down food for my two cats, and give Gabby her shot.

The upside is that newly diagnosed cats have the best chance possible of remission on Lantus. If you can put in the work now, is means that you will have a reasonable chance of regaining your freedom to travel.

When I first found the FDMB, I spent a great deal of time reading on the Health board. Someone there made the point that if you had a diabetic child, you would unfailingly test before giving a shot. Shooting blind has the potential to be lethal. That made a great deal of sense to me and I went out and bought a meter and started testing. I shot low this morning. I have a ton of data to support my doing so but I also knew I was prepared with strips and high carb food to manage Gabby's numbers, should I need to do so. I needed to. If I didn't test, I would have had no way of knowing that her numbers were in the 30s within a few hours of her shot. That is our sole rationale for encouraging you to get spot checks. Ultimately, LB is your cat. How you chose to manage his FD is entirely up to you. All we can do is suggest what will keep him safe.
 
:::What I was suggesting is that before you go to bed, you get a test in.

I've done it quite a bit already. I do 3 to 4 tests per day which is what most human diabetics do.


::::Likewise, at pre-shot times, it takes me all of 5 minutes to test, put down food for my two cats, and give Gabby her shot.

I am not convinced that numbers are going to drop low when he's been tested at +11 and been around 230. I give him some food after a +11 BG test and I don't see the need to test him again for PMPs - most PMPs he's pretested. He's in the high range still. It will be different when his numbers drop.



::::The upside is that newly diagnosed cats have the best chance possible of remission on Lantus. If you can put in the work now

I AM putting in the work. I'm balancing what I believe is "quality of life" with a treatment plan.

::::When I first found the FDMB, I spent a great deal of time reading on the Health board. Someone there made the point that if you had a diabetic child, you would unfailingly test before giving a shot.

There is a difference between animals and humans. We are permitted to euthanise our pets out of compassion but we are accused of murder if we euthanise our ailing loved ones. It's fine to follow a guideline from human illness but pets are not people with regards the importance of testing.

I very much doubt I will get LB into remission. He's on 4.25 units and most of his readings are too high still. He's gets no carbs.

:::Shooting blind has the potential to be lethal.

It's lethal if the numbers are very low and you don't adjust the amount. When the numbers are 95% high it's not IMO 'shooting blind'.

::::That made a great deal of sense to me and I went out and bought a meter and started testing.

Yes, I bought the meter and test 3+ times a day. In spite of what others think I believe I'm doing an ok job. Some of the time I'm engaging in reading between the lines. Also known as making an educated guess. I take the risk and so far it's working out ok. When his numbers drop I will be more vigilant.


::::I shot low this morning. I have a ton of data to support my doing so but I also knew I was prepared with strips and high carb food to manage Gabby's numbers, should I need to do so. I needed to. If I didn't test, I would have had no way of knowing that her numbers were in the 30s within a few hours of her shot.

I have everthing ready for a hypo session. As I said I beg to differ that I need to BG test after a +11 test that is well over the normal range. When I can get his numbers down I will most certainly test at PMPS


:::: Ultimately, LB is your cat. How you chose to manage his FD is entirely up to you. All we can do is suggest what will keep him safe.

I admit If it was my child I would be more vigilant for sure. It's my pet and I'm doing what I think is right.

Marilyn
 
Marilyn,

You are, of course, always free to do what you choose. And most people choose to do the thing they believe is right. The thing is, there are also things that are and are not true on a reproducible, scientific level. Those are the kinds of facts people are attempting to follow here. So you see, it isn't a matter of being "negative" or not patting one another on the back for what they do.

The whole point here is to follow a protocol and do what has been found to be safe from the great mass of data out there, not based on what we, as individuals "feel" or "believe" to be the case. This is not a criticism of you. It's just a statement of the difference between following a protocol that is evidence-based and striking out on one's own. That's anyone's choice, but it isn't realistic to expect a group whose purpose is to support a protocol, not to let you know when you are not following it.

Best of luck with Little Boy,
 
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