Lime-Sulfur dip is seemingly causing hypo each time

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Kelly & Oscar

Kelly & Oscar

Member Since 2010
So this is the third time, and no longer a coincidence I believe. Back story: Oscar started loosing hair in patches on his ears, then started excessively licking his front legs, mostly to clean his face, causing bald spots there too. A few months later my other kitty started loosing hair on her ears too. Brought Oscar to the vet previously and was told that I am stressing him out and that is the cause for the licking ohmygod_smile . Went to a different vet 3 months later and we now suspect d. gatoi, a type of skin mite that is hard to detect in skin scrapings. Didn't find any in the scrapings for either cat. Did a fungal culture just in case (negative) and started lime-sulfur dips as a precaution. Within two weeks the civie started getting peach fuzz on her ears, and within 3 weeks Oscar has whips of hair regrowing on his ears.

We are on dip #5 today. Here are the number patterns:

#1 on 7/8:
amps 159
+3 301 (dipped)
pmps 55
+4 129 .... No real issues here

#2 on 7/15:
amps 181
+3 (dipped)
+6 141 pmps 53
+3 159 .... No real issues here

#3 on 7/23:
amps 115
+5 186
+6 (dipped)
pmps 37
+5 49
+8 29
+8.5 89....... he always goes up from low preshot numbers due to not eating for 5 hours so I went ahead and shot that pmps number..... got the lowest number he had ever hit at +8. This pattern is a fluke for him (see 7/9, 7/10, 7/15, 7/16)

#4 on 7/28:
amps 176
+6 208
+9 (dipped)
pmps 162
+3 97
+7 24
+7.5 108 ...... hit the 20s again *sigh*

#5 on 8/7:
amps 199
+5 232
+6 (dipped)
pmbg 26 (fed)
+12.5 45 ... still not comfy giving a shot since this is with food.

He seems to only hit these uber low numbers on days that he gets dipped. I don't see them in between. This is the first time that we have gotten the 20s for a pmbg though. Has anyone else ever heard of lime-sulfur dips doing this to glucose levels?
 
That is true - could be the stress causing hyper sensitivity. I have not noticed a similar pattern when he goes to the vet though.

When he is dipped, I do it as quickly as possible. He gets washed with a hypoallergenic shampoo first and I let him walk around in 2 inches of water in the bath tub first to get used to things. After being dipped, he has to wear an e-collar until he is mostly dry and spends that time in our office with the floor covered in plastic. Hope this helps :-D
 
I have actually seen this phenomenon too. The IM vet and I are both scratching our heads over it, but in the cat I saw this in, there does seem to be a correlation between lime-sulfur dips and lower BG numbers....

It's consistent...and repeatable.
 
It might be impossible, but could you try a test after his shampoo, while he is walking around the tub, but before the lime-sulfur application? That might help validate or rule out a stress reaction.
 
Charliemeow said:
It might be impossible, but could you try a test after his shampoo, while he is walking around the tub, but before the lime-sulfur application? That might help validate or rule out a stress reaction.
Click to expand...

The DH is in charge of the next dip this coming saturday since I will be out of town this week, but I will ask him to see if he can get a reading for us. Maybe one in the middle of the bath and one an hour after the bath.
 
JL and Chip said:
I have actually seen this phenomenon too. The IM vet and I are both scratching our heads over it, but in the cat I saw this in, there does seem to be a correlation between lime-sulfur dips and lower BG numbers....

It's consistent...and repeatable.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear that someone else has seen this. Looks like most cats don't have a problem with it - sweet ones and civies alike. Guess Oscar is just special :lol:
 
I sulfur dip Do Lou for his allergies and its never bothered him but of course ECID but I would be more inclined to think its stress related just my opinion anyway as a vet tech......
 
I've been tempted to do a series of experiments but it's more out of curiosity than necessity. I just know now to adapt accordingly on bath days.

As I said, I find this topic interesting and the IM vet at the university have discussed various theories ... Is it a reaction to stress from the bath itself? Some magical property of the lime/sulfur dip? A reaction to the odor? The result of massaging in the shampoo (relaxing to the cat perhaps) during the bath? The change in environment? The change in routine? A diminished fungal/bacterial/allergen/whatever load resulting in a temporarily lowered physical "stress" on the cat? Does it somehow increase the effectiveness of the insulin? and on and on...

I've considered isolating some of the variables and seeing what happens, but it's unfortunately more academically interesting to me than necessary... and I haven't had the time. Heck, I've even threatened to wave the dip under the cat's nose to see what happens!

Seriously, though, something is causing a notable impact on BG values, though I'm not entirely convinced it's the lime/sulfur dip. It reminds me of the old discussion when one of the early board members stumbled on the realization that feeding turkey (I think it was) seemed to correlate to lower BG values. No one knew why turkey had those magical powers at the time ... but of course we now know it wasn't turkey, per se, it was the low carb content of said turkey.

So whatever ... but I have to say that the IM vet and I have had a nice chuckle about "hey, who knew lime/sulfur is a treatment for FD?". There have also been a few times when the cat fell out of regulation and was running solid 300s+ that it was advantageous to be able to break the pattern with a bath. Hey, whatever it takes, right? :-)
 
The DH said that he'd try to get a cycle of tests in on bath day this coming Saturday to see what we can find out. Hopefully we will find some kind of pattern. Since usually the ultra low number is roughly 8 or more hours after the bath, I am more inclined to think that it is either the mite/fungus/etc being suppressed and Oscar getting relief or that the lime/sulfur has been metabolically processed by his system at that time and has started to have an effect. He has never had this kind of reaction to vet stress, and he is much more stressed with those trips.

FWIW - Oscar is one of the kitties that will zoom from the greens to the reds if he eats any kind of beef, no matter how small, and even if it is low carb. His system just reacts weird to things.
 
Allergies cause inflamation. Inflamation raises blood sugar. The dips are getting rid of the critters causing the allergic reaction in Oscar so the inflamation in his body is decreasing and there is an improvement in blood sugar.

Lana
 
OK - results of the dip curve today.

He has been in and out of upper 100s and 200s this past week. Today started with a 205. +6 was 238. Pre dip test at +8 was 198. 30 min post dip while housed in the office with the fan and still wearing the e-collar he was 147. Two hours later at shot time he was 36 :shock: I think I have a case for it is the dip and not stress now :?
 
Wow! they need to remarket that stuff. Except that is dropping him a little too low for most bean's comfort. That is just crazy, though!
 
Charliemeow said:
Wow! they need to remarket that stuff. Except that is dropping him a little too low for most bean's comfort. That is just crazy, though!
Click to expand...

Too low for my comfort too! nailbite_smile
 
JL and Chip said:
Seriously, though, something is causing a notable impact on BG values, though I'm not entirely convinced it's the lime/sulfur dip. It reminds me of the old discussion when one of the early board members stumbled on the realization that feeding turkey (I think it was) seemed to correlate to lower BG values. No one knew why turkey had those magical powers at the time ... but of course we now know it wasn't turkey, per se, it was the low carb content of said turkey.
Click to expand...

(underline above is mine.) Hi JL, since you have been around for awhile maybe you remember this discussion (as well as others) on arginine - the thought being that the amion acid arginine in turkey could possibly lower bg levels. I am not saying this has been proven or is even true, but thought you would appreciate going back in time to see this thread where it was discussed. :)

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?15,73334,73334#msg-73334

Sorry Kelly for hijacking your thread. I think what you have found is very interesting and deserves further scrutiny. :)
 
Right after she was diagnosed, Gabby had ringworm and we treated her with lime sulfur dips. She didn't have the kind of reaction that Oscar did. I'm not sure if Gabby's the outlier or if Oscar is!

As far as re-marketing the dip as a tx for FD, I'm not sure if anyone would want to put up with the aroma!!
 
My cats had exactly the same symptoms crusts on ears bald spots on arms from grooming ears. It's ringworm. Ringworm cultures often give false negatives. Coincidently Mickeys kidneys pooped out after the dips and he died. My other cats are fine.
 
Fascinating! I wonder if it's because the lime-sulfur has such a high pH that it reacts with the Lantus pH to metabolize faster and/or even use up some of the depot?

Maybe we should put this in Think Tank? It's some interesting information.
 
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