Lev advice needed again.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Lori, if you want advice, you need to calm down and listen / read it and have an open mind.

If you attack the people trying to help you, no one is going to continue to try and help you.

I know this is a frustrating time but -- need to take a deep breath and take it easy.
 
lori, you would not believe the amount of time and use of my brain that is going on here. it's not standard rant. i don't do the standard rant. anyone that's paid attention for the last 4+ years knows that. my replies are always to the individual i am talking to. i am known for personalization.

what you just said in that reply is downright rude and disrespectful to everyone that has posted to you this week. please don't do this, not right now when you need the help that is available.

i am speaking today because i have a bit of time to do so and i see that people are being alienated and i don't want you to not get any help in a few days when you need it because people are put off by the frustration, which comes across the net as attitude unfortunately. i know what your reaction is going to be to that and i'm sorry it's gonna go that way but it's necessary. i will respond to you because i don't want to see tom hurt, no matter how upset you get with me. to be completely honest i'd rather piss off a human than watch a cat get hurt.
 
Lori, honey, please don't pack up your toys and go home. I know you are frustrated because we are "talking" counter to what you think is supposed to be right for your baby. But several of us have a lot of experience with lev/lantus and whatever you are trying to do isn't working and, IMO, won't work. You can't customize how you use these insulins (any insulin) until you have the basics and the data in place.

I have looked at your SS several times and gone back over the past year when he was on PZI. I take all of it into consideration. My brain is VERY engaged. What I see is that Tom is bouncing on lev and you are still trying to "shoot down" the higher PS. All that does is make him low at the next PS, where you shoot less. Then he is higher again. Lev can't be used that way. I wish you had stuck with the .6u this am like you said you would last night. It will take several cycles, but he will even out. Now, with the 1u again that is most likely 50% too much, he will drop 300 points or more again and keep the pendulum swinging.

Yesterday he dropped at least 450 points! That alone, regardless of the nadir being mid 100s, will cause rebound.

We are trying to help. Frankly, insulting us out of frustration isn't going to help Tom. Right?

(I got your PM and I am thinking about it).
 
phoebe and sheila thank you...cindy you make it a standard practice to be blunt...this was my blunt.
now i'm going to go back and read slowly what was written.
 
Ya know, I just reread this whole thread and I must say...THIS thread was ok. I apologize. I was going back and forth with this thread and a simultaneous thread I had going on in Lantus and THAT is where all this conflicting info was driving me nuts. I did'nt take into consideration that the stuff on that thread was not read by the folks here.
so a GREAT BIG APOLOGY TO YOU GUYS you all have been very helpful and tolerant and understanding basically the method to my maddness.
My fault was in posting in 2 rooms at the same time and getting incresasingly irritated by the 2 rooms not being in sync.
Please forgive me?
Lori
and tomtom too!
and I'm not kissing butt to keep you helping me...SWEAR!
 
A note on consistency (x-posted from Lantus ISG)

Unfortunately, consistency doesn't mean a whole lot when the dose is too high to begin with.

More and more we are seeing cats coming from another insulin to Levemir who begin at too high of dose because it was based on their previous insulin's dose or because they read the Tilly protocol and see 1U or the weight recommendation. I spouted the begin-with-1U mantra for years myself.

It wasn't until Sheila came to the Lev ISG with Beau, that I learned that Levemir is the Gentle Giant. After 2 years on Vetsulin Beau was OTJ on Levemir within 3 months because Sheila identified he was rebounding on even .5U. Even such a tiny amount can wallop diabetes!

500s and 600s are not "normal" BGs for Levemir. Forget that "Levemir can't handle those numbers," we are seeing that with Tom it evidently can.

Think about that for a minute. 1U of an insulin notorious for not being able to handle extreme rebound numbers (500+ is almost always a rebound number) is dropping Tom by over 300 points. Why do you think that might be?

Because the 1U dose is too high.

Levemir likes consistency, yes, consistency in time, consistency in dose and consistency in blood glucose. You must allow Levemir to level out the blood glucose before you can begin to say you're close to an optimum dose. The way to do that is the start low and go slow approach. And the thinking needs to become very low dose, like .5U.

Yes, we bang that drum pretty loudly in Lev ISG. That's because it works. I don't mean to belittle any of the advice that's been given so far, but telling Lori to maintain a too high dose is going to continue to cause her upset and confusion because that's what doses that are too high do!! They create irrational patterns and the caregiver is left bewildered.

Lori, the .6U did not "work" because it needs time to work. You will rarely see a reliable trend with Levemir after 1 use of a particular dose. Please consider the possibility that Levemir will make you rethink everything you thought you knew about Tom's diabetes. You may have instinct about Tom, but not about Levemir. You cannot force it to work the way you think it should or will or the way PZI worked for Tom.

I know you are seeing 2 camps of approach right now - the 1U camp and the lesser dose camp. So ask yourself, is the 1U dose working? No, it does not seem to be. And very unlike PZI or Prozinc, you cannot throw more Levemir at higher BGs. That only compounds the problem of a dose which is already too high.

If you are ketone testing regularly (you are, right?), please consider going to .5U and maintaining as close to 12/12 schedule as you can (no more than 30 minutes either way if you can absolutely help it) through the weekend at the very least, then re-evaluate his progress on Monday. I am willing to bet you'll see a difference. That's what it's going to take to get these numbers to calm down. You have to work within the strength of Levemir, which is to maintain a steady level of blood glucose. Not the curves you see with faster acting insulins. Even a tiny dose is capable of that and when several of us very experienced Levemir users see 500s, the too high dose bell goes off.

BTW, Tom chasing butterflies reminds me of Gandalf after 2 weeks on Levemir outside catching a mouse! He had come off 2 1/2 years of swinging numbers on PZI and felt fabulous. So take heart and watch Tom playing - he doesn't know his momma is having trouble helping him. He knows he feels darn good and despite the difficulties, you have Levemir to thank for that, so I hope you'll keep an open mind and keep learning what others know about Levemir instead of trying to shout everyone down.
 
i'm not sure there was so much of a push for a specific dose as much as there was for a consistent dose. ?? would have to go back and re-read all the different threads over the week but that's what i'm remembering at the moment.
 
With Lantus and Levemir - the nadir can change some due to the dose.

If the dose is too much -- nadir will be later.

If the dose is smaller -- nadir will be earlier.

So it is entirely reasonable to change to 0.5u dose BID (same every 12 hours) and see if the nadir is earlier -- making it more comfortable to shoot at +12.

I have changed two cats to Levemir.

Tiggy was on 2.5u PZI BID. He is now getting 0.5u Levemir BID and sometimes a skinny dose.

Rusty was on 1.5u Lantus BID. He is now getting a fat 0.25u BID / skinny 0.5u (hard to measure in between).

So in both cases -- I found we needed LESS Levemir than the previous insulin, and achieved BETTER regulation.

Since 1u is giving a +12 nadir -- reduce to either 0.5u or 0.75u and keep that dose steady for 5 to 7 days.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top