Leo ... should I continue with insuline

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And great job at testing btw! You have lots of data so that’s really good. I would suggest going up to 1.25, but let’s see if these folks I tagged agree with me. Do you have 1/2 unit marked syringes to make that easier?

these numbers can be improved but are not terrible at all. Leo will be just fine I’m sure of it :cat:
 
About the syringes ...
I initially started with 1 ml syringe cause were only smallest size found at pharmacy and the one vet gave me for shooting 1 ui ...
I ordered online 0,5 ml With smaller needle than the 1 ml cause I could not find smaller ones ... so I pulled the 1 ui In the 1 ml syringe the. Discharged it in a container and pulled it in the new syringe to see what dose is it in that new one .. so I give him same dose ... so that looked like an 1,25 ui... this is what I gave him so far
Will attache pics with both syringes so you can see what I mean...same dose of 1 ui ... anyway I could pull a virtual 1.5 ui and try that in future if everyone thinks would be a better dose...
 

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1. Prescription food hills for diabetic ( she said no other kind of food that doesn’t have diabetics written on the label)
That is just a money grab. There is nothing special about diabetic food. With the exception of one diabetic pate, they are all too high in carbs.

2. Mixtard 30 insulin in the morning and Lantus in the evening (posibly switching Leo on Mixtard 30 for both morning and evening)
Let's get the mixtard situation sorted first. I did a Google Scholar search for "mixtard" "30" and "feline." Dr. Google came up with just 15 possible hits of which only 3 were relevant. All 3 originated in Romania. I also did a search using a university library's search engine and came up with the same searches. So basically, there is nothing in scientific journals worldwide that supports the use of mixtard.

I've wracked my brain and can only come up with the Lantus given at night because it is a gentler insulin and your vet might think it safer to give at night than the mixtard. But this would not work because Lantus is a depot insulin. It needs to be given every 12 hours to maintain that depot. Adding mixtard does not help the Lantus depot maintain itself. Lantus craves consistency in dosing and in time. A few people over the years have been told by their vet to dose Lantus once a day probably because the vet was more familiar with canine diabetes. Cats have a different metabolism than dogs. Once a day Lantus has never worked for cats.

Lantus will never get the consistency needed if Mixtard is given in the morning and Lantus is given at night. Dump the mixtard.

3. She told me the proper hour to shoot is 07-07:30 am and same pm ( I currently shoot at 09-09:30 am and pm)
As long as you dose 12 hours apart, you can choose your own times. Most people arrange their shot time around their work schedule. It is completely up to you what time you choose.

4. Check blood sugar twice a day and the Dosage for both types of insulin will be :
-If bs under 150 ml/dl no shoot
-If Bs is between 150-300ml/dl - 1 ui
-If Bs is above 300 ml/dl - 2 ui
Like I said above, Lantus craves consistency. As a newcomer, your no shoot number would be 150. As you find out just how Leo responds to Lantus, your no shoot number will gradually lower.

5. Meal hours:
7-7:30- meal after insulin
12-12:30- meal
16-16:30 - meal
19-19:30 - meal After insulin
22:30 - meal
No food during night

With Lantus, you –
1. Test to make sure the number is high enough to shoot;
2. Feed to make sure the cat is willing to eat;
3. Shoot

You can then feed snacks throughout both cycles, earlier rather than later. Just pick up any food 2 hours (+10) before the next insulin shot. You do not want the preshot test to be food influenced.

The night cycle – disregard your vet's advice. Even though Lantus is a much more gentle insulin, food at night is important. It helps slow down the numbers drop. You can feed a snack before you go to bed and leave some snackage out.

How can I keep Leo supervised at a vet considering they all recommend this treatment program that I’m not sure is best for Leo ... I’m not keen to test the 2 types of insulin on Leo, if I tell the vet I will not follow her scheme she will not continue to supervise him ... what can I do for Leo’s well-being ?
Print off and show her the following:
Here is a very recent guidelines for feline diabetics and insulin use:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...nagement-guidelines-for-dogs-and-cats.195960/
Click on the blue link for the pdf.
(2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats
Revised January 4th, 2018

Also show her the protocol studies regarding Lantus use in cats.
Roomp and Rand (two very distinguished vets) developed the protocol for Lantus.
If your vet does not want to work with you, call around and find a vet that will. Ask whoever answers the phone what insulin the vet clinic uses and how they manage feline diabetic clients.

Also, I agree with @JanetNJ – let's see what the Lantus people have to say.
 
Thank you Red and Janet for making time to write me and share all this interesting infos.
I been reading the topic about start low go slow and I felt comfortable with it, specially since Lantus it’s supposed to have less chances in giving hypo episodes compared to Mixtard ... also found out about Lantus depot here.. no vet mentioned me about it ... I will make a post on the Lantus page asking for dose advice. Seen that the correct order is blood test - food and then insulin ... all infos thankfully to this forum not the vets ...
Regarding vet interview .. well it’s ideally what the link provides.. reality here is much different ... I insisted for 3 weeks to be able to obtain the appointment from today to this diabet specialist vet...
Also due to covid I was not allowed to accompany Leo to the vet office so they took him and I waited outside for 2 hours and half until they brought him back and give me the recipe and recommendations ... when I reached home I noticed Leo had a discomfort to his ears and I supposed they did a clean or something to his ears cause he is super sensitive and scratches or shakes his head and keeps his ear lower and doesn’t want me to touch him ... a procedure I did not asked for and was not informed they performed on him ... most vets and not only vets but human doctors too are too busy and overwhelmed with patients and they make you a ‘favor’ to receive you at an appointment... none wants a problem patient that contests the doctor recommendations or questions his knowledge... sigh .. I will dig in the studies and infos you offered and will take more responsibility to continue his treatment based on the knowledge from this forum and try to approach this vet see if she’d open to communicate and acknowledge the infos I’ll share from here if I’ll not be successful I’ll continue to seek a new vet ...
 
if I’ll not be successful I’ll continue to seek a new vet

As long as you have a vet that will write your script for Lantus, you probably don't really need them for advice.

My own cat never went back to the vet for her diabetes after I got her on Lantus. She went for other things, but not diabetes. I chose to listen to the people here instead and if you look at China's spreadsheet link, you'll see how well she was controlled.

When I did have to take her in for her first dental, I had informed the vet that she was on Lantus. When we went in for the exam, I started the appointment by saying "She's on X units of Lantus and her blood glucose generally runs between Y and Z"....and that was the end of the conversation about her diabetes!

If the vet did feel like she had to give me some (unwanted) advice, I'd just smile, nod my head and say "I'll think about that".....and I came right back here
 
That is just a money grab. There is nothing special about diabetic food. With the exception of one diabetic pate, they are all too high in carbs.


Let's get the mixtard situation sorted first. I did a Google Scholar search for "mixtard" "30" and "feline." Dr. Google came up with just 15 possible hits of which only 3 were relevant. All 3 originated in Romania. I also did a search using a university library's search engine and came up with the same searches. So basically, there is nothing in scientific journals worldwide that supports the use of mixtard.

I've wracked my brain and can only come up with the Lantus given at night because it is a gentler insulin and your vet might think it safer to give at night than the mixtard. But this would not work because Lantus is a depot insulin. It needs to be given every 12 hours to maintain that depot. Adding mixtard does not help the Lantus depot maintain itself. Lantus craves consistency in dosing and in time. A few people over the years have been told by their vet to dose Lantus once a day probably because the vet was more familiar with canine diabetes. Cats have a different metabolism than dogs. Once a day Lantus has never worked for cats.

Lantus will never get the consistency needed if Mixtard is given in the morning and Lantus is given at night. Dump the mixtard.


As long as you dose 12 hours apart, you can choose your own times. Most people arrange their shot time around their work schedule. It is completely up to you what time you choose.


Like I said above, Lantus craves consistency. As a newcomer, your no shoot number would be 150. As you find out just how Leo responds to Lantus, your no shoot number will gradually lower.



With Lantus, you –
1. Test to make sure the number is high enough to shoot;
2. Feed to make sure the cat is willing to eat;
3. Shoot

You can then feed snacks throughout both cycles, earlier rather than later. Just pick up any food 2 hours (+10) before the next insulin shot. You do not want the preshot test to be food influenced.

The night cycle – disregard your vet's advice. Even though Lantus is a much more gentle insulin, food at night is important. It helps slow down the numbers drop. You can feed a snack before you go to bed and leave some snackage out.


Print off and show her the following:
Here is a very recent guidelines for feline diabetics and insulin use:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...nagement-guidelines-for-dogs-and-cats.195960/
Click on the blue link for the pdf.
(2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats
Revised January 4th, 2018


Also show her the protocol studies regarding Lantus use in cats.
Roomp and Rand (two very distinguished vets) developed the protocol for Lantus.
If your vet does not want to work with you, call around and find a vet that will. Ask whoever answers the phone what insulin the vet clinic uses and how they manage feline diabetic clients.

Also, I agree with @JanetNJ – let's see what the Lantus people have to say.
Wow thank you so much for this very scholarly reply Red!:bighug:
 
As long as you have a vet that will write your script for Lantus, you probably don't really need them for advice.

My own cat never went back to the vet for her diabetes after I got her on Lantus. She went for other things, but not diabetes. I chose to listen to the people here instead and if you look at China's spreadsheet link, you'll see how well she was controlled.

When I did have to take her in for her first dental, I had informed the vet that she was on Lantus. When we went in for the exam, I started the appointment by saying "She's on X units of Lantus and her blood glucose generally runs between Y and Z"....and that was the end of the conversation about her diabetes!

If the vet did feel like she had to give me some (unwanted) advice, I'd just smile, nod my head and say "I'll think about that".....and I came right back here
I agree 100% same here. Just now picking up Minnie from the internal medicine vet and she’s telling me well, if she’s over 400 go up to 4 units, under 400 3 units and I’m like okey dokey thanks I’ll take it from here lol!
 
Hi Veronica I have no advice except to say... It sounds like the Vets in Romania have limited research capabilities. I feel bad you have such an up hill battle. One thing I do know about FDMB theres a LOT of people here that research and find answers. They may not have letters after their names but what they do have in practical everyday usage of insulin in MANY different cases many different cats is unprecedented. Also I dont think you cant find the same amount of love and caring for our kitties anywhere else on the planet.

FDMB ROCKS!
j.

You are doing the best you can We know that. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
 
Thank you for encouragements, I’m currently continuing with low carb diet and Lantus insulin seeking the proper dose ... and you all have what vets don’t have ... you have the powerful love for your kitties that drives you to learn and know more about what works best for them ... until now what I followed from FDMB was better than what vet suggested and was good for Leo so I will continue.
 
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