Learning ? re: when to feed lc, mc, hc foods
- Thread starter Dale
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Mindy & Max
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I'm sure others will respond differently...every cat is different, and as you test and get more data, you'll learn how your cat responds.
This is what I did with Max after I figured him out:
If he was 70 or higher, I did nothing.
If he was 60-69, I'd watch. If it was early in his cycle (+3 or 4) and I really needed to sleep, I'd give some LC.
If he was 50-59, I'd give MC if I couldn't stay awake to watch, but I'd get up later and check him. If I felt he was nearing a dose-decrease and I could watch him, I'd let it ride and see where it went. If I couldn't stay home or awake, I'd give him a spoonful of HC.
If he was below 50, he got HC (and I didn't put HC gravy on LC food as many other do, I just gave a spoonful of HC food w/gravy), regardless of where it was in his cycle or my need for sleep.
But that was after I'd figured out how he responded to the lower numbers, and knew that he wasn't hypo at 60 (but the first time he went that low I totally freaked out, and he bounced HARD because I gave him some kibble, and I overfed him so he puked everywhere overnight). Some cats show hypo symptoms at 60, so you really have to watch and observe your cat. It happened a time or two that Max pulled himself out of the 50s all on his own, without any food, and was acting fine all the way down to about 40. He never went lower than that as far as we know. If he had dropped below 40, I probably would have given some Karo or maple syrup to bring him up fast, along with a spoonful of HC or two.
This is what I did with Max after I figured him out:
If he was 70 or higher, I did nothing.
If he was 60-69, I'd watch. If it was early in his cycle (+3 or 4) and I really needed to sleep, I'd give some LC.
If he was 50-59, I'd give MC if I couldn't stay awake to watch, but I'd get up later and check him. If I felt he was nearing a dose-decrease and I could watch him, I'd let it ride and see where it went. If I couldn't stay home or awake, I'd give him a spoonful of HC.
If he was below 50, he got HC (and I didn't put HC gravy on LC food as many other do, I just gave a spoonful of HC food w/gravy), regardless of where it was in his cycle or my need for sleep.
But that was after I'd figured out how he responded to the lower numbers, and knew that he wasn't hypo at 60 (but the first time he went that low I totally freaked out, and he bounced HARD because I gave him some kibble, and I overfed him so he puked everywhere overnight). Some cats show hypo symptoms at 60, so you really have to watch and observe your cat. It happened a time or two that Max pulled himself out of the 50s all on his own, without any food, and was acting fine all the way down to about 40. He never went lower than that as far as we know. If he had dropped below 40, I probably would have given some Karo or maple syrup to bring him up fast, along with a spoonful of HC or two.
Roni and Moonie
Very Active Member
Please post all your questions in one condo per day for space sake..
Hillary & Maui (GA)
Very Active Member
I flagged your messages to see if a moderator can merge the posts together, so you have one condo going with all your questions.
Just for your reference Dale - in LL - we typically use one post per day per cat. In your case, asking questions for others, I would suggest that you do one post and in the subject put - lots of questions or something like that. This way, everything is in one place and you won't have to look for all your posts and responses - as this board tends to move very fast.
So, hopefully a moderator will be able to merge your posts together.....
Just for your reference Dale - in LL - we typically use one post per day per cat. In your case, asking questions for others, I would suggest that you do one post and in the subject put - lots of questions or something like that. This way, everything is in one place and you won't have to look for all your posts and responses - as this board tends to move very fast.
So, hopefully a moderator will be able to merge your posts together.....
Hi Dale,
The best thing about having only ONE post per day is that nothing gets lost! With many posting on their kitties, your important question may get pushed down and down the list and just get missed, but if everything you need to ask is in one post, YOU and your kitty don't get lost in the stream.
You can start by renaming the very first post for this thread as 5/11 Dale's kittyname
See? Because there is not anything in your post or a signature to help identify you and your kitty and any issues your kitty is having, it's tough to answer in generalities.
The best thing about having only ONE post per day is that nothing gets lost! With many posting on their kitties, your important question may get pushed down and down the list and just get missed, but if everything you need to ask is in one post, YOU and your kitty don't get lost in the stream.
You can start by renaming the very first post for this thread as 5/11 Dale's kittyname
See? Because there is not anything in your post or a signature to help identify you and your kitty and any issues your kitty is having, it's tough to answer in generalities.
Gosh...I feel like I need to make myself stand in a corner wearing a dunces cap for all the "wrong" things I've done. I'm not asking these questions because of my cats. I'm asking as a newbie or person trying to learn who has 3 other ladies who don't want to visit a message board and ask questions on their own and know I do visit a message board and will ask questions. But okay, I can make a separate post for my 6 cats and include a question that way if that's your rules. And if you want a board op to combine my questions, that's fine, no problem. May I make a suggestion though...maybe make a Sticky on when/how to feed lc/mc/hc foods? It might be helpful to other newbies...that is unless I've just overlooked it.
I appreciate the answers I've gotten. No need for further discussion. Thanks.
I appreciate the answers I've gotten. No need for further discussion. Thanks.
hi Dale,
Sorry for the onslaught of posts; I can't speak for the others, but I had thought that all of your posts were just for your OWN single cat!
If you are asking on behalf of several and it's just a general question about foods, then you could easily post that question in the health section or under Feline diabetes question.
For me, I make a single post for the day for each of my 2 kitties, Oliver and Shadoe, as each of them has different issues. I post here as both started on Lantus but have switched onto Levemir. If I have some question about foods, or like switching to raw foods, I would be better off posting my general question over in the other section. That way I can bunch it all together, so I can talk about a civvie who eats only dry, and my two FD kitties who both eat only lc wet foods.
The food questions can vary, depending on your own kitty and kitty's condition. Lots of others will be able to give hc to their kitties to bring low numbers up, but if you have an acro kitty, their pancreas is working and food may just cause those low numbers even lower! That's my issue for Shadoe, so it's the reason I mentioned it here.
If you are asking a question on behalf of another, you can always mention a bit about that kitty's situation and it will help the others to give you good answers.
It's so very generous of you to help the others to get info for their kitties! I hope we will be able to provide them with help through you.
Sorry for the onslaught of posts; I can't speak for the others, but I had thought that all of your posts were just for your OWN single cat!
If you are asking on behalf of several and it's just a general question about foods, then you could easily post that question in the health section or under Feline diabetes question.
For me, I make a single post for the day for each of my 2 kitties, Oliver and Shadoe, as each of them has different issues. I post here as both started on Lantus but have switched onto Levemir. If I have some question about foods, or like switching to raw foods, I would be better off posting my general question over in the other section. That way I can bunch it all together, so I can talk about a civvie who eats only dry, and my two FD kitties who both eat only lc wet foods.
The food questions can vary, depending on your own kitty and kitty's condition. Lots of others will be able to give hc to their kitties to bring low numbers up, but if you have an acro kitty, their pancreas is working and food may just cause those low numbers even lower! That's my issue for Shadoe, so it's the reason I mentioned it here.
If you are asking a question on behalf of another, you can always mention a bit about that kitty's situation and it will help the others to give you good answers.
It's so very generous of you to help the others to get info for their kitties! I hope we will be able to provide them with help through you.
Hillary & Maui (GA)
Very Active Member
Dale - there is no need for ruffled feathers or fur here. You do so much for kitties and helping others, we all want to help you help these women. We are just trying to make it easier for you by explaining how the lantus board works differently than health and community.
IT IS PERFECTLY FINE for you to post here - it's just easier for you and everyone who's offering advice to combine all the questions into one post.
I flagged one of your posts earlier and asked that a moderator help us all out and combine your posts - once that's done, you won't have to flip through 3 or 4 posts and responses.
Please don't feel that you were scolded or unwelcome here. That is not the intent of anyone on this board. We do need to tell many a person coming onto LL for the first time, this in order to help them better. Once they get the concept, it really does flow very easily. Honest.
I don't think there is a sticky about the food levels, mainly cause what will work well for one cat, won't for another.
General rule of thumb is to always as main process feed LC. The MC and HC come into play when the BG's drop too low under 50 or the BG's go from high to low very quickly - for example - let's say kitty started out at 300 and within one or two hours of giving a shot, the kitty drops to 100 - that's a huge drop in too short a time, in order to slow/stop the drop a recommendation of giving some MC or HC gravy only may happen. The idea is to stop the bounces and with a steep drop like this early in the cycle, it can cause a huge bounce later on.
Also, the amount of MC or HC is important, as too much will stay in system and cause a bounce later. So, it's really dependent on many factors which to give, amount to give, how to give and when to give.
Sometimes we say just give gravy, sometimes spoon gravy on top of LC - sometimes just give some MC.
Hope this makes sense and sorry the fur got ruffled
IT IS PERFECTLY FINE for you to post here - it's just easier for you and everyone who's offering advice to combine all the questions into one post.
I flagged one of your posts earlier and asked that a moderator help us all out and combine your posts - once that's done, you won't have to flip through 3 or 4 posts and responses.
Please don't feel that you were scolded or unwelcome here. That is not the intent of anyone on this board. We do need to tell many a person coming onto LL for the first time, this in order to help them better. Once they get the concept, it really does flow very easily. Honest.
I don't think there is a sticky about the food levels, mainly cause what will work well for one cat, won't for another.
General rule of thumb is to always as main process feed LC. The MC and HC come into play when the BG's drop too low under 50 or the BG's go from high to low very quickly - for example - let's say kitty started out at 300 and within one or two hours of giving a shot, the kitty drops to 100 - that's a huge drop in too short a time, in order to slow/stop the drop a recommendation of giving some MC or HC gravy only may happen. The idea is to stop the bounces and with a steep drop like this early in the cycle, it can cause a huge bounce later on.
Also, the amount of MC or HC is important, as too much will stay in system and cause a bounce later. So, it's really dependent on many factors which to give, amount to give, how to give and when to give.
Sometimes we say just give gravy, sometimes spoon gravy on top of LC - sometimes just give some MC.
Hope this makes sense and sorry the fur got ruffled
Jill & Alex (GA)
Very Active Member
jiminy crickets! dale, please accept my apology. as gayle said, there's been a misunderstanding. dropping in to ask general questions and formatting them in separate threads is fine. we only ask posters who are looking for answers for their kitty to keep all their questions and numbers in a single daily thread. that way we don't have to go searching all over the board for discussion related to that particular cat.
whether and when to fed lc, mc, and hc is so cat specific. it all depends on how the individual cat responds as well as what the individual's goal is. to complicate matters, kitty will probably respond differently to each of these carb percentages depending on where the cat is in the cycle. ECID holds true for both insulin use and how a kitty may respond to carb content.
example: others have mentioned feeding hc and mc to low numbers. i can't do that with alex. she's too darn carb sensitive. instead, i vary the amount of lc fed depending on where she is in the cycle to manipulate her numbers. a small piece of freeze dried chicken is usually all that is needed to bump her numbers up later in the cycle. however, alex is probably not only an exception, but at this point in her treatment my goal is to hang onto her dose. i'm not looking for dose reductions. i'm looking for a low flat curve in the 50 - 100 range. to hang onto her dose, i don't want her to drop below 50. manipulating the numbers with food works very well for us (has required lots of testing to get us to this point), but ECID.
until a whole lot of data is collected to know how the individual cat responds to food, we *usually* pull out the big guns (hc) for numbers in the 40s. imo, no reason to let kitty drop into the 30s. a caregiver may also want to use mc or hc for a huge drop at the beginning of the cycle in order to slow things down. *usually* lc fed at the end of a cycle is sufficient to bring low numbers up, but ECID. unfortunately, "knowing thy cat" is often forgotten these days.
food manipulation is just another tool we have available to us to control the curve. i love when caregivers note when they feed on their spreadsheets. i find visuals to be very helpful in figuring out what is happening, but that's just me. lol!
whether and when to fed lc, mc, and hc is so cat specific. it all depends on how the individual cat responds as well as what the individual's goal is. to complicate matters, kitty will probably respond differently to each of these carb percentages depending on where the cat is in the cycle. ECID holds true for both insulin use and how a kitty may respond to carb content.
example: others have mentioned feeding hc and mc to low numbers. i can't do that with alex. she's too darn carb sensitive. instead, i vary the amount of lc fed depending on where she is in the cycle to manipulate her numbers. a small piece of freeze dried chicken is usually all that is needed to bump her numbers up later in the cycle. however, alex is probably not only an exception, but at this point in her treatment my goal is to hang onto her dose. i'm not looking for dose reductions. i'm looking for a low flat curve in the 50 - 100 range. to hang onto her dose, i don't want her to drop below 50. manipulating the numbers with food works very well for us (has required lots of testing to get us to this point), but ECID.
until a whole lot of data is collected to know how the individual cat responds to food, we *usually* pull out the big guns (hc) for numbers in the 40s. imo, no reason to let kitty drop into the 30s. a caregiver may also want to use mc or hc for a huge drop at the beginning of the cycle in order to slow things down. *usually* lc fed at the end of a cycle is sufficient to bring low numbers up, but ECID. unfortunately, "knowing thy cat" is often forgotten these days.
food manipulation is just another tool we have available to us to control the curve. i love when caregivers note when they feed on their spreadsheets. i find visuals to be very helpful in figuring out what is happening, but that's just me. lol!
Dale,
I agree that some sort of universal document would be useful. I am working with Tawny's foster Dad in Louisiana, he's never handled a diabetic before, and I wanted him to give him good hypo instructions for last weekend. I asked on health, and it appears that the best we have is this, which sends one directly to syrup. (I had wondered about FDMB being criticized by some other sites for pushing syrup. I knew we didn't in posts, but I had forgotten about this "hypo-care" document--hadn't looked at it since I was a newbie.)
I know you were asking a broader question than in a hypo situation, but it would be nice if there were some universal carb load guidance.
V
I agree that some sort of universal document would be useful. I am working with Tawny's foster Dad in Louisiana, he's never handled a diabetic before, and I wanted him to give him good hypo instructions for last weekend. I asked on health, and it appears that the best we have is this, which sends one directly to syrup. (I had wondered about FDMB being criticized by some other sites for pushing syrup. I knew we didn't in posts, but I had forgotten about this "hypo-care" document--hadn't looked at it since I was a newbie.)
I know you were asking a broader question than in a hypo situation, but it would be nice if there were some universal carb load guidance.
V
Jill & Alex (GA)
Very Active Member
it would be nice, but impossible to come up with "universal" guidelines. unfortunately, one has to put in the time to learn how their own cat responds. it takes time, testing, and experimenting. i may be daft, but i don't see any shortcuts...Venita and The Boyz said:
O/T - i see the same problem with peeps coming up with a *universal* list of what percentage of carbs defines lc, mc, and hc. with newbies, it's easy and perhaps a built in safeguard to say 18% carbs defines hc, but for my cat a food with 8% - 10% carbs could very well be considered hc FOR HER.
ECID!
Libby and Lucy
Very Active Member
I also found that I changed how I used food as time went along. I don't know if it was the change in my experience and comfort, or a change in Lucy's response, or both. At one point I could feed her high carb food all night long and while she might bump up to the 60's, she wouldn't stay there. I got used to using a lot of gravy, then one day noticed that the gravy was now bumping her too much. I had to retrain myself to use low carb food first, and that almost always worked to keep her surfing. It wouldn't have worked before.
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