Joe's high numbers

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Susan Pomo, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I am wondering if anyone thinks I should raise Joe's units from 3.25 to 3.50. His numbers are still so high. I did catch him stealing kibble from the young cat I have in the house. I did not think he could make it up into the cage she eats out of.
    Also Joe went for a weigh-in yesterday and gained 1/2 pound
     
  2. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Susan I will tag
    @JanetNJ

    @Panic
    For you, but it looks like he could use an increase
    Let's see what they say :cat:
     
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  3. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yes he's due for an increase
     
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  4. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    How much Janet?
     
  5. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I tag her all the time but feel she must be sick of me. Wish I just had her as a daily consultant. lol
     
  6. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, I would go up to 3.5u
     
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  7. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    She's not sick of you, we are all here to help :cat:
    Susan don't forget to fill today's date on your spreadsheet
    @Susan Pomo
     
  8. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Eliz @Panic :cat:
     
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  9. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Ok, going up to 3.5 starting tonight
     
  10. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Susan don't forget to put today's date on your SS :cat:
     
  11. varlene

    varlene Member

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    Apr 23, 2021
    I too think you should up by 0.25u.

    You might want to keep this link handy: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/

    From that page, I use the following section the most:

    ********************************************
    • If nadirs are more than 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.25 unit
    • If nadirs are between 90 (5 mmol/L) and 149 mg/dl (8.2 mmol/L), maintain the same dose
    • If nadirs are below 90 mg/dl (5mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.25 unit
    As your cat's blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], do lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g., diet or other medications), don't increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete (but decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change).

    Don't be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments-- no matter how high your cat's blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may shoot past the right dose.

    Reducing the Dose:

    • Anytime the BG drops below 90 mg/dL, reduce the dose by 0.25u at the next shot.
    ********************************************
    Based on the above, you can see that upping the dose is warranted for Joe's next shot. IMPORTANT NOTE: Just remember that when you increase the dose, hold it for three to six cycles. I held all my increases for SIX cycles and then would look at the cheat sheet to see my next move. If nadirs (lowest points) are in the right range you can hold until even longer. Any time you see the BG go below 90, reduce by 0.25u, even if six cycles have not been completed. Hope this makes sense. If I made any mistakes in my post, I hope @JanetNJ will let us know.

    Good luck!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
    Reason for edit: added definition of nadir
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  12. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Reading from the link. what are nadirs?
     
  13. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Part of that process is getting a feel for basic concepts:
    • Onset - the length of time before insulin reaches the bloodstream & begins lowering blood glucose
    • Peak/Nadir - the lowest point in the cycle
    • Duration - the length of time insulin continues to lower blood glucose
     
  14. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    3.5. Sorry didn't say because I was agreeing with what you said. Lol. I've been kind of in and out this week because we were on vacation. :). Came home this afternoon.
     
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  15. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Also I have bought mostly Turkey, Beef, Chicken and Duck Weruva's for Joe. Wondering about using either canned Sardines or canned Mackeral for treats/snacks and so he can get some Omega's. Any thoughts on this? Both are zero carbs. Joe has early stage 2 CKD and diabetes
     
  16. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    Naughty naughty Joe. Pretzels are not for you! So glad he gained weight Susan. Once his blood sugar gets lower, he'll put even more on.
    I can't speak for if sardines or mackerel are low in phosphorus. hmm. Are any of the Weruva sardine or mackerel varieties on the "CKD friendly" list?
     
  17. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    Google knows. "Sardines and mackerel are a very good source for phosphorus". :facepalm:
     
  18. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    Low-phosphorus seafood choices


    Phosphorus content for a 3-ounce portion, cooked:

    Seafood Phosphorus Content
    Mahi Mahi 155 mg
    Salmon, Atlantic
    farmed 215 mg
    Yellowfin tuna 210 mg
    Sea bass 210 mg
    Tuna, canned 130 mg
    Rockfish 195 mg
    King crab 192 mg
    Lobster 160 mg
    Oysters, Eastern 120 mg
    Shrimp 120 mg
    Snow crab 120 mg
     
  19. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Have you tried the purebites chicken treats?
     
  20. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Yes, there are a ton of Weruva's on the "good list" that are fishy stuff BUT another group I belong to (and many vets) say fish choices are not good for cats due to the low quality of fish used and the toxins found in the fish sourced for cat food. In the articles I was sent, so much radiation and such gets into the fish they use for canned cat food. I am sort of paying attention to this at the moment although I was looking into fresh caught Salmon as a treat.
    https://www.catwhisperer.se/why-fish-is-bad-for-cats/ one of the many articles I have read.
    Another one: https://littlebigcat.com/why-fish-is-dangerous-for-cats/
     
  21. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I bought Joe, from Chewy, some freeze dried chicken bites and freeze dried minnows. He turns his nose up at both. Joe does not turn his nose up at much. I was thinking about soaking a minnow and see if he likes it better that way
     
  22. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    Jack would allow me to do anything if it meant getting some freeze dried shrimp. He knows what it means when I say, "Shrimpies?" Then he follows me anywhere. Not all my cats like them, but he adores them. They're not as hard as the minnows. I can crush one on top of his food as a topper, and it crumbles.
    You can find them on Chewy or Amazon.
    https://www.chewy.com/purebites-shrimp-freeze-dried-raw-cat/dp/53165
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  23. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Oh
    too bad. Half my cats liked the purebites and half are not impressed. Lol
     
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  24. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I will try these Shrimpies. Joe was such a slave to Temptations and had a jar with many bags in it. He got them multiple times a day by me and knew how to work anyone that came over too. I was a bad cat mom prior to him getting sick with indulging him in the wrong things
     
  25. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    This video shows Cheddar taking off the lid to the treat jar and it happened all the time and then Joe knew how to take the bags out of the jar. Tag team criminals
     
  26. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh my god, that is crazy, they are so smart, Cheddar is adorable, so are you Joe !
    You also have a dog Susan he or she is so cute !
     
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  27. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Yes, Daphne is my dog and she helps me foster and socialize kittens. That is how I ended up with Cheddar. Cheddar is Daphnes cat
     
  28. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Cheddar is too smart for her own good and has to be caged at night or she gets into too much trouble. She pulled all those bags out of a cupboard

    so she goes nite nite in her cage
     
  29. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Joe hates Cheddar. Joe walks with me and the dog and is waiting to go out and Cheddar ruined his chance to go out
     
  30. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh my God you are killing me with these videos:p
    What a precious dog Daphne is I'm melting just watching her . She's very patient
    Cheddar is some smart Kittie, I can't believe what she does and to go to her cage when you tell her to go nite nite is unbelievable.
    I can't stop watching them :p

    Joe is the boss lol he's so handsome
    Cheddar looks young how old is she
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  31. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    Cheddar, Joe and Daphne are all so adorable and personable! Thank you for sharing those videos. They're highly entertaining. No doubt that Cheddar is a very smart cat, and it's easy to see that she likes to please you. I couldn't believe that she willingly went to her kennel for bedtime. It's adorable. You mentioned that Cheddar is Daphne's cat. I get that, because I once kept a kitten because my dog fell in love and literally begged for him. We had two other cats at that time, and they hated my Duke. But Gussy and Duke loved each other until the day that death separated them. Listening to Cheddar purr while she loved up Daphne was so heart warming. I watched that one a few times.
    As for the temptation treats... Jack LOVED those things. To be honest, he also loves freeze dried minnows too, but not like he loves shrimpies and his old beloved temptation treats. I hope Joe likes them too.
     
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  32. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I trapped Cheddar as a very wild feral kitten. Her and her brother. I brought them home to socialize and then get them into a Rescue. I always give kittens Daphne time because she loves kittens and then they can be adopted out as "dog friendly" this takes place in the bathroom first and later in a spare bedroom as wild, feral kittens are always caged at my house except for playtime. Daphne and Cheddar fell in love and I found I could not take her to adoption events. She also has a couple of handicaps, some mutated genes, (see the very long tail that she can lay flat against her body) I was scared no one would take care of her like I would. I have been fostering for years and years and had a golden rule to never foster fail. I told myself if I ever kept one I could no longer foster. Daphne convinced me. Because Cheddar turned out to be so mischievous, I have often regretted my decision as it is a full-time job keeping her out of trouble.
     
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  33. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    every morning if I do not shut the lids
     
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  34. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh my God she is a full time job :p
    She is a savage :p
     
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  35. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    I can see how she's a full time job, but she's hilarious! I guess we can all be happy that every cat doesn't have the ability to problem solve. She's extremely intelligent.
    I noticed the tail right away, as I have a kitty who holds her tail so high that it bends back a little. I never even considered that it could be a mutated gene. That's interesting. And I've had a few foster fails myself. Jack, one of my diabetics, wasn't allowed to stay in the foster home that I found for him because he hid behind a chair for 3 weeks then came out and pooped all over the furniture! I picked him up and he's been with me ever since. And he's never pooped on anything again (except one time in my daughter's shoes, and it was gross). And there were 2 other foster fails that I thought would be hard to home. One has since died from nasal cancer, and he was a real sweetheart. The other, I still have and she drools like a faucet and gets in trouble all the time. She's another orange girl like Cheddar, and the one who holds her tail bent back sometimes.

    Here's my little drooling trouble maker. (I'm so grateful that she's not as bright as Cheddar!) Her name is Joey.
    upload_2021-7-22_14-23-38.jpeg
     
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  36. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    I have to say that Joe is the cutest little boy.
     
  37. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh she's adorable Carolyn
    @Daddy Jack's Mommy
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  38. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Carolyn your Joey sort of reminds me oh Tyler's brother Perry, he passed last Oct , and boy do I still ache for him. He was my heart kitty, the love of my life, don't get me wrong I love Tyler's to pieces, but Perry was mine
     
  39. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    I'm so sorry for that loss. It's painful to loss any fur baby. But it hurts, in another way altogether, when we lose a kitty who held a special place in our hearts. I once lost a cat whose presence took up the entire room that she entered. I didn't realize just how much of my heart she held until she was no longer with me. I know how it feels...
     
  40. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    Thank you. She's a real sweetheart. A bratty little sweetheart.
     
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  41. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry for your loss also ♥:bighug::bighug:
     
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  42. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I am so sorry for that loss. I know how much it hurts
     
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  43. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Joey is the cutest!
     
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  44. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Susan :bighug:
     
  45. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Joe went up to 3.5 yesterday and today his numbers are very high. worried.
     
  46. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I'll tag
    @JanetNJ

    @Panic
     
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  47. Daddy Jack's Mommy

    Daddy Jack's Mommy Member

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    Hmm. I wonder if he went low during the night and if we're seeing a bounce. Diane tagged Elizabeth and Janet, so let's see what they say.
     
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  48. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I don't really know why it's not coming down. Do you happen to have his lab reports that you could post!
     
  49. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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  50. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I don't really know why it's not coming down. The wbc is not super high in the labs but not low either. Makes me wonder if an infection was brewing and contributing to the higher numbers.


    There's a labs tab on the spreadsheet. If you enter the values it makes it easy to compare Bloodwork over time.
     
  51. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Is that "Monocytes?"
     
  52. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Wbc. White blood count.

    Is he acting normal? Eating normal?
     
  53. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Yes, acting fine. eating like a horse and always hungry
     
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  54. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    If you managed to get some ketone strips, it might be worth checking for ketones. While he is acting fine at the moment, with the trend up in BG numbers, for some kitties, ketones can build up quickly. As I previously posted the basic recipe for developing DKA is an insufficient supply of insulin + inappetance + infection OR other systemic stresses.
     
  55. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    You could try human grade canned sardines and mackerel? Probably not too pricy, and maybe some peace of mind. And oh man, fresh caught salmon, how enticing would that be!
     
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  56. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    Awesome videos. Looks like you could probably weigh Cheddar with those bathroom antics by the scale ;)
    I don't know enough to help with the labs, but I do know that things change quickly, (thus the vets want new fresh labs all the time) so you could try using urinalysis strips to test for ketones AND liver and kidney function. That way if you test the urine regularly, if a value changes, you'll know immediately.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FC59PR3
     
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  57. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Glad to see its started dropping at night out of those black numbers.
     
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  58. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    I was silently praying this would not come up again. LOL.
    I just cannot imagine. Explain to me how you do this please? wait around for Joe to pee and catch some of it in a cup or spoon?
    Christie, I looked at your spreadsheet and it is so wonderful to see such a normal one. I live in hope that Joe's looks like that one day
     
  59. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I opted for a ketone blood meter. I found it easier than trying to catch her in the box
     
  60. Christie & Maverick

    Christie & Maverick Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Susan, I'm sure you'll get there as well. There are other kitties who are more consistent in better numbers, but my goal for the last few years has been to keep Maverick in good numbers and as well-regulated as I can.

    You may have a little glucose toxicity, where the kitty just gets a bit too comfy in higher numbers, since that's what they've become used to. It sometimes takes an increase or two to break through. That said, I'll leave the topic of dosing and when to increase to those who have used Prozinc :).

    The good thing is that Joe is eating well, albeit unregulated cats are often quite hungry. Not all kitties have troubles with ketones. Here is a really good info page that gives some tips on how to catch and test urine

    I just non-chalantly follow Maverick when he's heading downstairs where the litter boxes are, and sneak up on him when he's mid-stream.

    Or, as Janet said, many find using a blood ketone meter easier, if you can't catch them in the litter box.
     
  61. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    HI Christie and Janet,
    I will decide which route is best for me to go with this.
    One question? How often am I to check his ketones? Could I pay for the vet to do it once and see if there is a problem first. Like, see if they are normal once and not worry about it again until say Next blood work day?
    Of course if they were not normal I would then invest in the meter. BUT if there is not a problem then I would rather not tackle it.
    Please give me your thoughts on this.
     
  62. varlene

    varlene Member

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    Hi, Susan. You've given Joe more than six shots (cycles) at 3.5, so time to up another 0.25u, and I hope his BGs will start coming down. P.S. For peace of mind, I too opted for a ketone blood monitor which is easier than trying to catch my Smoky peeing and so far 0 ketones despite very high BGs all of a sudden.
     
  63. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Thanks Varlene. I usually wait 7 days to up things. AND today he had great numbers. Going to hold out and see but I thank you for your advice.
    Where did you get the ketone blood monitor? And how often do you test with it?
     
  64. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Write look at those numbers today!!!! Fantastic... 108!!! Loving that yellow preshot
     
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  65. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Actually she should hold.... He got down to 108 today
     
  66. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    :cat:Lowest pre-shot EVER
     
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  67. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Very exciting!!!
     
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  68. varlene

    varlene Member

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    Hi, Susan: When I posted this morning, I only saw last night's numbers, so was concerned. I also thought it was good to confirm that each shot (12 hours) constituted the cycle because it wasn't something that was clear to me when I first joined. I am very glad Joe had a good day today so you are correct to hold, and I see @JanetNJ agrees. : )

    I bought a KetoBM Blood Ketone Meter Kit a few weeks ago at amazon for $29.96 and used it twice. Smoky's BGs were very high and he was acting weird for no good reason, so it seemed like a good idea to rule out ketones. I learned that my AlphaTRAK 2 meter is a lot easier to use than the KetoBM as those strips are very difficult to insert and requires watching a countdown as it calculates. It made me appreciate my glucose monitor that beeps almost immediately once the blood is accepted. I don't know if a beeping ketone monitor is available but it is a feature that I think would be helpful. <SEE CORRECTION BELOW> I am keeping the KetoBM I bought as it does its job, and hopefully I will only have to use it from time to time

    Hope Joe continues to do well!!

    ~Arlene

    CORRECTION: Since my original post, I have had to use my KetoBM meter several times, and I see that it does indeed beep. It is not very loud, but now that I know it is there, I can listen for it, and it made the process much easier for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
    Reason for edit: *CORRECTION*
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  69. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure ketones are something that can appear quickly and become life threatening within a day if they get high enough. As in, faster than you would be getting blood work done. You'll probably want to tag someone with more experience, but I would not rely on far apart blood work on ketone monitoring.
    I know, I know, something ELSE to worry about! But hey, at least you have some awesome numbers today. Wow he is doing better and must be feeling better as well? Worth that super late night the other day to get him here ;)
     
  70. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ketone meters usually require a much bigger sample than the alpha too. It can be tricky to get it to read... Still easier than catching pee though. Hahaha. How big of a sample does the ketoBM need?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  71. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    When my cat was in steady high numbers (all. pinks and above) I tested a couple times a week. Or if she just seemed a little off I tested. If she was in yellows and blues I didn't bother because she didn't have a history of a problem with ketones. If the meter detected any small traces at all I tested daily until they went back to 0.
     
  72. varlene

    varlene Member

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    The KetoBM Blood Monitor likes more blood than the AlphaTRAK 2, but a good prick will work easily. The amount of blood needed is acceptable, and there is no way Smoky would allow me to get near him while he is doing his business in the litter box, so the meter is the only way to go for me to test ketones.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
    Reason for edit: addition
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  73. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    Joe got his Shrimpies in the mail today and LOVES them. Finally a snack he likes!
     
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  74. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! Things are really looking up in Joe land.
     
  75. varlene

    varlene Member

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    Hi, Susan: I just made a correction to an earlier post about the KetoBM ketone blood meter I bought. Since my original post, I have had to use my KetoBM meter several times, and I see that it does indeed beep. It is not very loud, but now that I know it is there, I can listen for it, and it made the process much easier for me.
     
  76. Susan Pomo

    Susan Pomo Member

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    thanks Varlene
     
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