Is this vet really right??

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Duddersmommy

Member Since 2014
Hi, my name is Danielle and just last Wednesday my beloved kitty, who had previously not had any symptoms at all, became very ill. Long story short after a 4 day hospital stay where he was treated for impacted bowel, dehydration, and diabetic ketoacidosis, he has been allowed to come home with his insulin, a bag of Hills w/d and a lot of vet advice that seems very contrary to most of the research that I did while he was in hospital.

Since I am very new to this I would appreciate feedback on what your experiences say is good vs bad advice, and perhaps some recommendations of what questions I should ask when we go back in for testing tomorrow. I need to be the best pet parent I can be for him so I have my Dudders around for a good many more years living a happy, active life. I know this post is going to be LONG but I figured as much info as I can give may help anyone who would offer advice.

About Dudders:
8yrs old, American shorthair (as far as we know, we found him and his litter mate abandoned beside a busy highway before they were even properly weaned), about 8lbs, treated last year for gingivitis (7 teeth extracted), prone to obesity but no other health problems.

Dudders became a Fat cat after coyotes moving too close to our rural home made letting him play outside too dangerous. He ballooned up to over 20lbs and I despaired of how to get the weight off because no matter what food I used it didn't seem to change. I went from free feeding to portion control, and finally a bit less than a year ago I found Dr. Lisa Piersons website catinfo.org. I switched Dudders to a combination of high protein, low carb canned food and her recipe for homemade food and was thrilled when the weight began to fall off like a miracle. Dudders then got gingivitis and had to have 7 teeth extracted about 9 months ago, but was fine after that, until last week.

His blood glucose was almost 500 when they tested at the vets, and he had ketones in his urine. They put him on IV fluids and a catheter, started him on insulin and it began to drop a little, but they say he is very resistant right now because he was so ill. They sent him home after his urine was negative for ketones even though his blood glucose was still over 350 and have me administering 8 units of insulin twice a day. He does seem to be feeling better slowly, his appetite is back with a vengeance, he's jumping on and off furniture again instead of hiding under it, though his behavior is still far from normal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled he's improving, but some things the vet told me just seem....well, a little odd. Here's what I was told:

1. You only need to test him every few days till he gets regulated, then only once every couple of months.
2. If testing at home you can only draw blood from a leg vein, using a lancet on an ear is cruel, causes the kitty a lot of pain, and will make his ears constantly sore and over sensitive.
3. Kitty needs to be on a combined high protein, moderate carb diet because the protein will cause a big spike that will then drop too low, whereas adding the carbs will release the nutrition more evenly over a course of hours.
4. A high protein very low carb diet is not good for diabetic kitties because it will make them more prone to become ketoacidotic.
5. You should only feed hills w/d because the carbs and proteins have been modified to be more evenly digested and the nutrition released over a matter of hours.

Now, I know more than a little about human diabetes, it runs in my family. I also realize that kitty and human metabolism and anatomy are different, but it seems to me some things should remain somewhat consistent, especially something like testing more than once every few days to regulate and STAYING THE $&@! AWAY FROM CARBS!

My goal is, if possible, to someday see Dudders in remission so he can live a totally normal life. I don't see how that can possibly happen with this treatment regime, but I don't know enough to argue, either. I really need guidance and appreciate any experiences you all are willing to share with me.
 
1. You only need to test him every few days till he gets regulated, then only once every couple of months.

No, we would disagree with that. We test before each shot to be sure that the dose we are planning to give is a safe dose to give and mid cycle to see how the insulin is working.

2. If testing at home you can only draw blood from a leg vein, using a lancet on an ear is cruel, causes the kitty a lot of pain, and will make his ears constantly sore and over sensitive.

Well, there are cats here who have had their ears tested for ears and come happily, purring, to get the test done. You can use Neosporin at first until their ears toughen up.

3. Kitty needs to be on a combined high protein, moderate carb diet because the protein will cause a big spike that will then drop too low, whereas adding the carbs will release the nutrition more evenly over a course of hours.
4. A high protein very low carb diet is not good for diabetic kitties because it will make them more prone to become ketoacidotic.
5. You should only feed hills w/d because the carbs and proteins have been modified to be more evenly digested and the nutrition released over a matter of hours.

If you have read Dr. Lisa's site, she contradicts these ideas. She advises wet low carb food, which we advocate also.

I know it is hard to get advice that differs from your vet. But hundreds of cats have goten regulated and gone into remission using the methods we advocate: wet, low carb food, a good insulin and hometesting.
 
They sent him home after his urine was negative for ketones even though his blood glucose was still over 350 and have me administering 8 units of insulin twice a day.

First things first...
That is an extremely high dose. What kind of insulin did he prescribe?
 
Hi Danielle and extra sweet Dudders and welcome to the message board.

Yes, there is lots of experience here in the day to day management of diabetes.

1. We recommend testing before every shot, to help keep your kitty safe. Plus additional testing to see how well the insulin is working for your cat.
2. Vein testing hurts. The ears have few nerve endings so testing on the ear is the recommendation.
3. Sorry, low carb food has been proven in several vet journal studies to be better for a diabetic cat than a low carb diet. I can provide you with links to some of these vet journal articles if you're interested.
4. Ketoacidosis is often due to a combination of not eating enough, an infection, and not enough insulin. Never heard of a low carb diet causing ketoacidosis.
5. Hill's W/d dry is one of the higher carb foods out there, around 37% for the dry, 26% for the wet. Once I took my Wink off that food, he quickly went into remission.

Perhaps this vet journal published article, AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Catswill help you out.

What type of insulin is Dudders on? 8 units of any insulin is a lot.
How much does Dudders weigh?

We do not recommend changing the food until you are home testing. A switch to a low carb diet can cause a rapid drop in the BG levels. Most of us here use inexpensive human glucometers like the Relion Confirm or Micro, available from Wal-Mart. It's the test strip cost that is the big expense.

Are you testing for ketones? With Dudders incident of DKA, you should be keeping a close eye on that. Anything more than a trace of ketones should be a vet visit ASAP.
 
Hello! Welcome to FDMB!

I second what everyone said. A wet, low carb diet is best. Dr. Lisa Pierson says it all best and gives great reasons why.

My Gypsy never minded ear testing. She came running for her tests! Cats have very few nerve endings in their ears so it doesn't hurt so much. And since we test on the outer edge of the ear, it really isn't painful I believe.

8 units is a LOT! What kind of insulin is it?
 
You vet has forgotten that cats can metabolize both protein and fat to break them down to make glucose if needed. Its introductory organic chemistry.

Vet stress may raise the glucose from 100-180 mg/dL; at home numbers will give you a better picture of how the insulin is working.

Testing during between the shots, near the expected time of lowest glucose (nadir), will show you how well the insulin is working.
The nadir is about
+3 to +4 hours after Humulin or Caninsulin/Vetsulin
+5 to +6 hours after ProZinc
+5 to +7 hours after Lantus
+7 to +9 hours after Levemir

We suggest using an inexpensive human glucometer with pet-specific reference numbers. One many of us use is the WalMart Relion Confirm, or Confirm Micro, which is also sold at American Diabetes Wholesale as as the Arkray USA Glucocard 01 or 01 Mini (same manufacturer - Arkray USA). It uses a tiny blood droplet and the cost is significantly lower for test strips (like $0.36 each).

Comparing a human glucometer to a pet-specific glucometer is like reading temperature in Celsius vs Fahrenheit. Both are correct. You just need to know the reference ranges to interpret what the numbers mean.

[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​
Examples of using the chart:

Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)
 
Carl & Polly said:
They sent him home after his urine was negative for ketones even though his blood glucose was still over 350 and have me administering 8 units of insulin twice a day.

First things first...
That is an extremely high dose. What kind of insulin did he prescribe?

They prescribed ProZinc, and I thought that was a really large dose also, but I didn't have anything to compare it to.
 
Because of that whopping high dose, please try to get some tests around +5 to +6 hours after the ProZinc shot so you can see how low he is going. There are compensatory hormones which kick in when the glucose goes too low or drops suddenly, and they release stored glycogen which breaks down into glucose. This may cause contradictory high glucose levels. If you can share some of the test results, it will help us see if that might be happening.

We store our cat's glucose tests in a Google Drive grid (the file is stored on a Google server), then share it via a read-only link so that others can give us feedback on what they see happening. Instructions to set one up are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
BJM said:
Because of that whopping high dose, please try to get some tests around +5 to +6 hours after the ProZinc shot so you can see how low he is going. There are compensatory hormones which kick in when the glucose goes too low or drops suddenly, and they release stored glycogen which breaks down into glucose. This may cause contradictory high glucose levels. If you can share some of the test results, it will help us see if that might be happening.

We store our cat's glucose tests in a Google Drive grid (the file is stored on a Google server), then share it via a read-only link so that others can give us feedback on what they see happening. Instructions to set one up are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.

I have to go buy supplies so I can start home testing; Dudders is headed to the vet tomorrow so they can test him. Thanks for the link to set up the spreadsheet. This method makes so much more sense to me than just testing every few days and hoping we got the dose right. It all seemed so haphazard not to test regularly. I also intend to take that AAHA article to the vets with me and ask why he doesn't think its appropriate to follow those recommendations. Just goes to show that just like human doctors, vets don't know everything and you can't always just assume everything they say is gospel.

Thanks to everyone who has responded so promptly, Dudders and I are both very grateful to get some feedback from those of you who have the "been there, done that" t-shirt.
 
Nobody told my Patches that her ears should be sore and sensitive. I have been poking her ears at least twice a day for over nine years.
 
I f I were you, I would put off the vet appointment and get some at home numbers. We know stress raises blood glucose levels and most cats are very stressed at the vet. Numbers there can be 100+higher than numbers at home. Then doses based on those inflated numbers can be too high when the cat gets home.

Get some at home numbers, change the diet to wet low carb slowly while monitoring carefully (our Oliver went down 100 points overnight when we switched from dry to wet) and see where you are. There are high dose conditions that require lots of insulin but eliminating the dry food and testing at home will give you a good picture about the dose and whether it is too high or needs to be in that range.

And do pick up some ketone strips at the pharmacy. If he had DKA, you want to stay on top of that.
 
At 8 units of Prozinc 2x daily, I am surprised that your cat is still alive!

My cat originally tested at 511 at the vet, and most I ever gave him was around 3.5 units 2x daily (or ProZinc), and that was only for a month or so while he was eating to gain back all the weight he lost (at least 5.5 lbs). At 15.5 lbs he's getting 1 unit 2x daily now, and may have stabilized at that with his low carb diet. Yes, I do find other people dosage levels helpful.

As far as I can tell, I seem to know more about diabetes and feline diabetes than the vet.
 
Duddersmommy said:
... I also intend to take that AAHA article to the vets with me and ask why he doesn't think its appropriate to follow those recommendations....

Remember that vets provide services for 2 or more species and any conditions which arise, not just the routine stuff. It is very difficult to stay up to date on everything. I would suggest tell him you recognize how difficult it is to stay up on everything, provide the guidelines, and suggest you work with them. It is a more diplomatic approach that won't get you dropped from the practice.
 
BJM said:
Duddersmommy said:
... I also intend to take that AAHA article to the vets with me and ask why he doesn't think its appropriate to follow those recommendations....

Remember that vets provide services for 2 or more species and any conditions which arise, not just the routine stuff. It is very difficult to stay up to date on everything. I would suggest tell him you recognize how difficult it is to stay up on everything, provide the guidelines, and suggest you work with them. It is a more diplomatic approach that won't get you dropped from the practice.

I wasn't planning on being rude to the guy, he's very nice, and the techs at the practice are wonderful caregivers, but I do want to know if he's aware of the article and what the reasoning is behind his recommendations. I did have to take him in today for testing, the fact is that financially I simply could not buy another bottle of insulin (which he's going to need within the next couple of days), more syringes, and an at home testing kit all at once after just taking the hit on the hospital bill. I prioritized and got the insulin and syringes, I should hopefully be able to buy the home test kit Friday.

Unfortunately, today's BG test was still really high (325 4 hours after feeding and shot) so they've upped the dose again to 9 units twice daily. At least he's happier and more perky today, though, that's the important thing.
 
If you have a WalMart near you, I would go tonight and buy an inexpensive ReliOn Meter and some test strips.
That is a really high dose to start with, and I would want to know how low this insulin is taking him in the middle of the cycle, like tonight.
I hope you have some Karo or honey or syrup on hand, for just in case.
 
The ReliOn Prime is least expensive and takes a large blood droplet.
The ReliOn Confirm is a little more expensive and takes a smaller blood droplet.

Matching test strips for the meter.

Lancets: get ones for alternative site testing, they have a smaller gauge which means they are thicker and more likely to get a droplet.
 
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