Is it junk or real food???

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Kathleen and Fred

Kathleen and Fred

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Just visited the vet with Fred, after he came in "contact" with an aggressive outdoor cat. He's OK now but a little slow -- got a a 14-day antibiotic. The event sent his BG up a bit at first to 211. Back to 115 this evening. (Fred takes Prozinc and the vet said not to shoot him under 150. Does that sound right? I usually give him .5 up to 150 and 1u over that to 250)

While at the Vet (a new one), she mentioned that he had gained weight (I thought that was good thing, since he had lost so much with Hemobart last summer). She said 1 lb in a cat is equivalent to 20 lbs in humans!! She asked what I was feeding him, and when told she was glad to know I was strictly feeding wet food to all three of my "housemates". HOWEVER, she went on to say that I was, in effect, feeding him the "low end" or junk food variety of wet foods.

I follow the FDMB chart and buy 9-lives, Whiskas, Special Kitty, etc. because the carbs are low and I can afford these. The vet suggested the stuff at Pet Smart -- you know, the cans that cost $.90 for 3 ozs. And she said I should feed Fred less -- I feed 4 times a day about 3 oz. each (12ozs). He weighs 16lbs and is a large, (by nature) tall cat. She wants me to give him maybe 4-6 oz. a day of the high-end stuff, Iams, etc. that seems very little to me.

Now I'm confused again. What's wrong with the less expensive stuff, as long as the carbs are low? And, don't "sugar cats" need more food during the day? He'll wake me at 4am, if he feels hungry!!

Please share your experiences and thoughts. This is NOT an emergency. Many thanks.

Kathleen & Fred.

P.S. "Lucy" has bad allergies. Should I just go with the gluten free foods to help her, too?
 
Is that vet willing to pay for the expensive foods?
I don't see what is wrong with the food you are feeding at all.

My cats ate way more food before regulated - Oliver was eating around 30oz a day and he's now at around less than half that amount. He has cut back on his own; I did not cut his food in half, he chose to eat much less.

If he lost weight before, was he overweight then? If not, then what's the problem if he's gained back what he lost.
Does this vet understand the hunger that diabetics have? It does not sound like it to me. Maybe this new vet is not aware of the past weight loss and problems.

Just tell this vet that you are providing the best food that you can within your means and the vet is welcome to pay for the more expensive foods, but you cannot.
 
Thanks for your reply. I've just tried the more expensive food and none of my cats will touch it!!

As for weight loss, Fred was 16 lbs when he was first diagnosed (12/09). He lost a little when getting regulated, then a lot (15 lbs) with Hemobart. Now he's back to 16.5. I think he should drop a little just because his numbers jumped last month and he started to get shots again -- after 3 month OTJ. I'm willing to regulate his weight with a little less food at the same times each day.

But, you're right....he doesn't always want to eat as much. I sometimes have to feed the left-overs to the neighborhood possum, "Pansy". As long as I know the wet food is good for him, nutritionally, I can handle the weight thing.

Vets are very confusing to me. I go to a big practice with lots of vets. I don't always get the same one, but they all have access to Fred's rather large file. Of course, they don't always read every inch of his history, but I bring them up to speed. Nevertheless, the various vets in the group seems to have multiple opinions about insulin, feeding, etc. Why is this so complicated for them? Where are the rules, eg. shoot at 150, don't shoot at 120. Why can't they decide on feeding times, amounts and brands. I just paid $104 for the visit and left very confused. But, don't dare ask too many questions! They don't like that.

I wish I could find a good "sugar cat" vet in my area!! That's my goal for 2011.

Many thanks,
Kathleen and Fred
 
Hi Kathleen! So good to hear that Fred is doing well after that hemobart incident! If you have the data to shoot at 120 and know that it is safe, then I think you should do it. If you don't have the data - then experiment with shooting slightly lower than 150 numbers when you will be home to shoot. The no shoot cutoff is a flexible thing and is put in place for people that don't test as much, or will not be around in case kitty dives low.

As for the "low end" comment about the food...... many vets can be elitist about food and do not understand that some people simply cannot afford the wellness and merrick foods out there. Special Kitty, 9-lives, Friskies, etc are on the low end because of their inclusion of "meat by-products" (ie - bits of animal meat that cannot be identified by titles like "chicken heart" or "chicken liver") Meat by-products can include anything from bits and pieces from trimming meats for human consumption, to chicken feet/feathers, to dead livestock found found in the fields, and much more. There is a segment of Dirty Jobs that aired maybe a month or two ago about a meat processing facility for "meat by-products". They produced mostly chicken feed and stuff for pet foods. Made me sick to my stomach - but I cannot afford the nicer high end foods, so I do what I can. At least what I feed is grain free and low carb. I have found a grocery store around here that sells non-enhanced chicken thighs at $1.69/lb, and plan on starting to make my own cat food per Dr. Lisa's recipe after Christmas. It actually ends up being cheaper than buying Fancy Feast for 3 cats.

If he is still gaining weight and you think he might be slightly overweight, then you can try feeding slightly less each day. I wouldn't drastically reduce the food intake. I would suggest stepping it down to see how his body reacts both weight wise and glucose wise with the food reduction.
 
Kelly & Oscar --

Your advice has always been right on target, so I can't ignore it now! Actually, we're thinking about the same. I shoot .5u 150-200, 1u 201- 300 and consider calling the vet after that. His favorite range is 80-110. He was 205 this morning and I gave him 1u. The snow/cold has kept him in (along with the unwanted cat encounter) so his exercise level is down. His numbers are much better when he exercises.

As for food, there's nothing he likes better than a "crock pot chicken". That usually gets him going if he's finicky about food. Bella and Lucy will eat just about anything, but Lucy has allergies and I'm thinking of giving her Nutro wet just to see if that will clear her up. Nutro seems to be "junk free" and even their kibble made her improve last year. She's gotten worse on other wet foods....but what can you do? Allergies vs. diabetes....it's hard.

As for amounts, I've decided to put down about 2-3 oz. per cat at each feeding and leave it 30 minutes. Whatever is left will be taken up. No in between meals. I'm going to keep to my schedule of feeding: 7am; 3pm; 7pm; 10pm and see if I can get Fred's weight down just a bit. He gets tested at 7am and 7pm. If I can afford some of the high-end foods, I'll buy them, but it's unlikely. I may just look for sales on chicken and turkey, etc. and cook my own. For some reason, nobody here likes raw food -- although the occasional mouse is sacrificed!

Thanks for "listening". I've had cats all my life and never had the stress that this year has brought. But, the pleasures surely outweigh the bad days. So, we'll just do the best we can and hope we're good parents for our Sugar Kitties.

Kathleen & Fred
 
If you can find a vet that is up and current on all things diabetic, please clone that vet and disperse the clones. I'll take one please.

I have to say that my vet office has not bothered to tell me what to do as I keep bringing them info from this site that is new to them, so they are all for my educating them in some areas.

Because we know each cat is different, a cookie cutter kind of approach provided by most vets just does not work. You are best to take their advice into consideration, then do what suits YOUR cat.

The chicken is a great idea; I have not tried turkey but maybe I'll get some to try.
I watch for the sales on econo trays of skinless, boneless chicken breasts, then pack each piece separately in the freezer.
Two of my cats, Oliver and Apple, just love the chicken cut in chunks and served raw. Apple's still a kitten so her chunks are tinier for handling.
Shadoe refuses the raw, but wants hers slightly steamed and then cut in small chunks.
I also use the chicken as a pre shot snack because some mornings, they are really hungry for some reason, and just a couple pieces are enough to calm them till test/shoot/feed time.

I think some people have done the food cut back slowly... for a few days just remove 1tbsp from each meal, then take back 1tbsp for a few days.

I hope you are able to get a good balance and the choices of foods are to everyone's likings.
 
The other thing that may help is to look at the % calories from fat in what you buy. Check out Binkys page canned food list again ('cause it sounds like you've probably done that multiple times!) and from the low carb ones, find the lowest fat ones that your cat will eat. Fat is 8.5 calories per gram vs protein and carbs which are 3.5 calories per gram.

Also, Dr Pierson suggests it may be OK to supplement the canned up to 15% with plain meat (about halfway down the page). This also would reduce the proportion of fat calories. "When fed as a supplement to most commercial canned foods, it is safe to feed ~15% of the daily calories in the form of plain meat."

By shifting the calorie distribution to lower fat, you may not need to reduce the volume very much.
 
You're right, I have read that chart bunches of times, but never paid much attention to the calories part. I'll do that next. Also, I was interested to learn that I should only feed 15% plain meat. I always thought that would be the optimal choice. So, I'll watch that, too.

Just wish I could get back to the good ol' days of 100 readings. I was spoiled for about 3 months!

Thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
 
You know what the best filler would be - water.
I have been watering down foods for Ollie and Shadoe for some time... fill 'er up with water and less room for foods.

It's the best helper for even humans to drop some poundage, by drinking lots of water.
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
You're right, I have read that chart bunches of times, but never paid much attention to the calories part. I'll do that next. Also, I was interested to learn that I should only feed 15% plain meat. I always thought that would be the optimal choice. So, I'll watch that, too.
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This is if you are not adding supplements to the meat you are feeding. If you feed more than 15% without adding any vitamins/minerals, then you risk an unbalanced diet.
 
I would echo the sentiments about considering a homemade food diet. I've got a potential food allergy issue now, so I'm starting to switch out Willie's proteins (thank goodness for dads and brothers who are deer hunters!), but for years I've had Willie and (now GA) Miss Jezebelle on ground turkey puchased at Aldi or Save-A-Lot for under $1.50/lb. If you're worried about bacteria feeding raw, you can flash boil to kill any bacteria in the meat. I use Feline Instincts supplements and a salmon oil for pets I get at Costco and find I am able to get cost per meal (we feed twice a day) to under $0.80, which is a little higher than friskies/special kitty/etc., but not much, and the health benefits are noticeable. There are several companies that make supplements... I've used Alnutrin, which is much more cost-effective, but found my kids didn't prefer it as much, so we switched back to FI. Ultimately, there are options, and the making of the food is not nearly as inconvenient as you might imagine.

As an added benefit, when you are feeding homemade, the kitties tend to eat less as their bodies are getting more of what they need from smaller quantities of food, which for us has translated into less waste going into the litter box, and has resulted in surprisingly lower litter costs.

I understand that this approach isn't for everyone, but I really recommend that folks at least do the math and give it a try if it is within their budgets.
 
Just so I'll understand....if I feed, say, baked chicken once a day and wet food (any type) the other meals (2 and a snack) is that balanced enough? I've never used minerals or vitamins because my vet says I don't need them. Should Sugar Cats be on a multivitamin -- where do you get them?

Kathleen & Fred
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
Just so I'll understand....if I feed, say, baked chicken once a day and wet food (any type) the other meals (2 and a snack) is that balanced enough? I've never used minerals or vitamins because my vet says I don't need them. Should Sugar Cats be on a multivitamin -- where do you get them?

Kathleen & Fred
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I wouldn't feed a multivitamin because they could be getting a lot of something they don't need more of. The added supplements to raw food is to make sure they get enough vitamin B, E, omega 3's, etc that they would usually get from eating the stomach and its contents of the prey they kill (ewwww! lol). This is also why cats cannot properly break down fruits and veggies - they need their prey to break them down partially first.

Right now I feed only Fancy Feast. The only thing I add to it is 3mg of methyl b-12 a day to help Oscar's neuropathy, 1000mg of fish oil as an added anti inflammatory, and 250mg of taurine because I don't believe most commercial pet foods out there really have enough taurine in them. When I start homemaking the food, all of this will be taken care of when I make the food every few weeks.
 
got a a 14-day antibiotic.
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Please do NOT ever allow this to be done again!

I am on my iPad and can't search for the Convenia thread here but maybe someone else can link to that thread.
 
PLEASE send more info on the 14-day antibiotic. The vet just (blithely) said she was giving him this shot and it would keep him safe in case there was/is an infection from the cat bite. What should I expect from the long-term antibiotic? Is there something I need to do now that he's received it??

Is there ANYTHING these vets get right?????? I really don't have time or money to go to vet school. How can I protect myself from people who are supposed to know how to treat my animals???

TOTALLY FRUSTRATED!!

Kathleen & Fred

P.S. what is the convenia thread?
 
Oscar & Kelly,

I see that you use Prozinc. My vet recently told me that it was no good after 90 days. Another vet (internist) said it would b good as long as it had the milky color. The Manufacturer (yes, I called them) said they really couldn't say because they didn't know if I had contaminated it in any way!! But, the expiration date from the manufacturer said I have another year. My vet says that means shelf life -- not opened life.

Do you have any other information??
thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
 
Here is the covenia thread Dr. Lisa was trying to post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2107

Covenia really only has a limited effectiveness - not good for broad spectrum antibiotic use. PLUS it has a track record of causing anemia in some cats. The problem with it is if you have the cat that has an adverse reaction to it - there is no taking the shot back, you just have to ride out the symptoms. Do a google search on feline anemia symptoms so you know what to look out for just in case. I hate to scare anyone, but it is always better safe, than sorry.

Kathleen and Fred said:
Oscar & Kelly,

I see that you use Prozinc. My vet recently told me that it was no good after 90 days. Another vet (internist) said it would b good as long as it had the milky color. The Manufacturer (yes, I called them) said they really couldn't say because they didn't know if I had contaminated it in any way!! But, the expiration date from the manufacturer said I have another year. My vet says that means shelf life -- not opened life.

Do you have any other information??
thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
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Oscar used ProZinc for about 4 months before we switched to Lantus. ProZinc is a very stable insulin, unlike Lantus, and usually can last until the vial is empty. The expiration date on the label is the shelf life and not valid once it is opened. There are many beans over in the PZI section here that can get 4-6 months out of a vial. It all depends on how well it is handled, etc, really. I personally would use the vial until you see a marked difference in the glucose patterns Fred is giving you. That's how I determine I need to change my Lantus vial too, actually.
 
Fred had Hemobart last summer and finally got over that -- and was OTJ for 3 months. The anemia that went along with it was very hard to overcome. I had no idea that this antibiotic could send him back down that path. Is Convenia the only 14-day shot? Should I check with the vet about what she used? The only way I can tell if he has anemia is the gum color.

Fred hasn't bounced back as quickly from this episode as I would have liked. He's eating, but still listless. Could this be a reaction to the antibiotic? His BG's are around 150, which isn't too bad, but he does best around 100.

Something else to worry about.

Thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
Is Convenia the only 14-day shot?
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Yes but it is not a "14 day shot". I stays in their system for ~60 days.

That said, the reactions that I have dealt with or heard about have shown up within ~10 days.....but that is not to say that this drug has not or cannot wreak havoc on the body after that....subclinically.

There is just no good reason to put this drug in a cat's body in the vast majority of cases that it is being used in.
 
OK, I get it....the vet has, once again, caused more problems than she has helped. I would have been better off to have let him heal naturally at home. He got the shot on 12/20.

But, that said, what do I look for now??? Especially with Fred's shaky history. Can this drug send him back to anemia? Will it cause his BG's to go up or down? do all cats react negatively to this drug? How will I know when he's "out of the woods"??? Should I contact his Internist?

I guess I should do something quickly, because no one will be around to help me over the Christmas holiday.

Thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
 
You relax and just keep an eye on him. No...not every cat has a problem with this drug. Thousands of doses have been given with no clinical signs being noted.

The point of my post is to get people to stop using it.

Remember....most things in life that sound too good to be true, usually are....ie.... it is not wise to inject a *long-acting* chemical into any living being's body unless you have a very good reason to do so.
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
OK, I get it....the vet has, once again, caused more problems than she has helped. I would have been better off to have let him heal naturally at home. He got the shot on 12/20.

But, that said, what do I look for now??? Especially with Fred's shaky history. Can this drug send him back to anemia? Will it cause his BG's to go up or down? do all cats react negatively to this drug? How will I know when he's "out of the woods"??? Should I contact his Internist?

I guess I should do something quickly, because no one will be around to help me over the Christmas holiday.

Thanks,
Kathleen & Fred
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Luckily you know the symptoms that Fred will give you if his RBC gets too low. Your vet probably meant well and was probably thinking she was helping you by not making you give him a pill twice a day. It shouldn't effect his glucose, luckily. His listlessness is probably still due to the cat fight. If his appetite decreases and he becomes lethargic, or his gums go pale, then you should take him in to be checked. The hemobart anemia is a different animal from covenia caused anemia, so I wouldn't think he would be more susceptible because of it. Dr. Lisa said that most adverse reactions are seen within the first 10 days, so I would say you are in the clear after two weeks. Just take a deep breath - you will be able to catch anything that comes up, and everything will be ok.
 
Thanks, guys! I'll do what you advise and relax a bit. This has been such a roller-coaster year. Just when we overcame one problem, another came along. I think I'm just gun-shy about everything pertaining to Fred's health. If it weren't for this sight and really kind people like you who take the time to help one another, Fred would be dead and I'd be a grieving Mom!! As it is, he's showing no adverse signs on the 3rd day, so I'll just keep watch and try to "chill" a bit.

By the way, when I left a message for the vet to call with more information about the antibiotic (8am) no message was returned. Guess who's looking for another vet after New Year's.

Thanks again -- I may check back in if things change with Fred. Maybe one day I can help someone else get through these stressful times -- I've certainly learned a lot since 12/09.

You're all the BEST!!!

Kathleen & Fred
 
Just got off the phone with the Vet -- no not the Vet, a technician. The vet thinks I'm some sort of meddling nut!! I had called to inquire about the Convenia Fred had been given. I was told that this antibiotic is the BEST FOR DIABETIC CATS because it lasts longer and will give them protection. Then she said, "You know we wouldn't give your cat anything that would harm him."

Fred is still a bit lethargic (bitten on Sunday Night - Convenia Monday morning), but he can't get out for exercise due to the cold, so he may be depressed. His BG's are up a bit (247 this evening), but his gums still look pink, I guess. I don't know what shade of pink to expect -- as pink a his tongue or darker or lighter??

Is there anything else I should be looking for or aware of while we wait out this 14-60 day nightmare???

Kathleen & Fred
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
I was told that this antibiotic is the BEST FOR DIABETIC CATS because it lasts longer and will give them protection.
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ohmygod_smile No offense - but that is the biggest sales pitch I have ever heard :lol: Diabetic cats don't need a *special* antibiotic. He is just trying to come up with a reason that sounds plausible.

Watch his eating habits. You can also lightly press on his gums and see how long it takes for the pink to return. They should also be wet/slick and not very sticky.

After the line your vet gave you, I'd be inclined to start searching for a new one. I don't very much like fibs :YMSIGH:
 
My cat who has had very serious issues with urinary problems and had to have PU surgery in the spring of 2009 has had this shot several times over the past year to try to combat MRSA in his bladder since he does not like to be handled at all. (Was part of a litter that was wild when I got them and he still has not gotten used to people) He had not had any reactions from having the shot. Anyway, we gave the shot thinking it was great since he would not take pills. The vet even gave it to my other cat that was diagnosed with diabetes since there was some type of urinary issue at the time of the vet visit. (He is OTJ now) THEN i found out about how bad the shot is for them and the possibility of fatalities. When i discussed my cats' issues with another vet, she was questioning the use of the shot so much. She said that she prefers not to use that and IF she gave that shot, then it would not be more than once or twice over his lifetime. So I am going to give pills now that I have heard that AND now that I have found the freeze dried chicken treats that my cats love. Even the one who does not like to be handled LOVES these treats and is willing to eat a loaded pill pocket with small pieces of the chicken treats rolled around the pill pocket. The others get a pill pocket with nothing inside. That way my cat does not think I am trying to "poison" him by giving him something different. I also read on this board that someone gives an empty pill pocket to her cats daily so that whenever they need a pill, she just slips it in and they don't even notice it. Good idea!
 
Watch his eating habits. You can also lightly press on his gums and see how long it takes for the pink to return. They should also be wet/slick and not very sticky.
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what should I look for in eating? He's been about the same in eating habits since the shot on 12/20. He's been a little "slow" since the event, but is perking up a bit, now. He doesn't like me to mess with his mouth -- to check color. Am I looking for a pink that's a deep shade like his tongue or slightly lighter? Is anemia usually evidenced by lethargy, not eating, etc.?? I can't remember from the Hemobart, and that was a whole different situation.

The vet called this morning to say she had never had any problems with Convenia. She says she uses it all the time. Don't worry. I was on my way to find another vet when this emergency came up. We'll be interviewing others as soon as the holidays are over. I haven't been pleased with this group in a long time -- and they're the most expensive in town.....they're just so close to my house.

Thanks for your help.
 
Look for decreased eating, not wanting to eat, etc. Anything significantly less than what he has been like lately. Yoda never showed lethargy with his hemobart anemia, but once his blood count was up in normal range, his eating picked up significantly. Also (since he has white fur) the pink skin around his eyes and his pink paw pads got a lot more pink. Now I know that if they start looking washed out, then something is up.

Good to hear that you were thinking about a new vet already :mrgreen:
 
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