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Taline & Bibo

Taline & Bibo

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Hello everyone,
I recently noticed that my cat Bibo (12yrs) was drinking a lot of water and urinating more than before, so searched on line and found out that those symptoms were related to diabetes. I immedaitely, checked how to test his blood sugar online and tested him twice in 2 hours, the readings were 379, 371. I was devastated and panicked just like anyone else. However there is an issue with Bibo, he is a very scared cat, doesn't socialize and gets hyperventilated when he goes to the vet. Six months ago, I took him to the vet for a minor paw problem, he ended up staying there for 6 days , because, his organs started failing after becoming anemic caused by severe stress,and getting blood transfusion because of that. I went to the vet today without him, and he gave me a syringe and a container to get a sample of his urine, and I did that with placing clear plastic wrap in the litter box and took the container back to the vet. The doctor called me in the evening saying that Bibo was diabetic indeed and he must start on insulin, however considering Bibo's unfriendly tenure and him hiding under the bed most of the day wouldn't help me give him shots and checking his bg on daily basis.. If anyone has an insight to how to deal with a difficult cat and if oral medications work along with low carb, high protein diet... would do me the greatest favor. He is so precious and I want to give him the best of care....Thank you so much for reading my post.
 
Hi and welcome. We will help you in any way possible.

Are you saying that you can't lay hands on Bibo? Or that you can't get him to the vet for the vet to show you how to test and how to give shots?

If the latter, where are you (nearest big town, state). We may have someone that can help you.

I don't have personal experience but everything I've seen here indicates that the oral meds aren't the best choice. My understanding is that essentially they force the pancreas to work harder, precisely at a time when the pancreas is highly stressed and really could use a break (exogenous or injected insulin).

laur
 
Thank you so much for replying so fast. I live in Glendale CA, and I can lay my hands on Bibo, but I cannot restrain him to stay or hold him without him struggling to leave, he doesn't like to be touched unless, it's night time he comes to my bed and purrs on my chest. He's a difficult cat, and my main concern is measureing his bg level with the monitor, I already did 3 times since yesterday and it took my husband and me running after him to catch him and restraining him with so much struggle to poke his ear. He's even more cautious now then ever...I'm giving him Hill's prescription MD wet food and also Fancy Feast pate canned food to alternate, and for my surprise he's drinking much less than before ever since I started him on wet food only 3 days ago. This morning his bg was 365, and the vet suggested that we could start him on a prescription medication to try for few weeks along with low carb diet and see how it goes. I don't want his pancreas to get worse than what it is now with meds, but could I succeed with the insulin without testing his bg as often as everybody else is dong, considering that it is a hassle to catch him and hold him. i'm just so confused and anxious and for the first time in my life, I feel so out of control. Thank you for caring and listening to your fellow cat lovers' situation.
 
Oh sorry for the trauma! I've had a cat with a similar demeanor to Bibo, and no way could I give him a pill.

Since you've already learned the art of testing the blood glucose, it will be a breeze to give the insulin shot twice a day. I give my cat her shot when she is eating and she never looks up once. Bibo might, but once you get your technique perfected it should work okay for you. You will need time and patience.

Best to all of you.

Pam & Layla
 
Ok, we can do this!

You have already taken a great first step in getting your cat on the low carb FF pate' style foods. You can save a lot of money by not buying the Hill's prescription foods. FF will do just fine. One thing you will want to learn is to read labels -- you want the first ingredient to be meat. Take a look at the Hill's - the prescription foods are typically cheap, low quality ingredients which are totally overpriced. Frankly, your money will be better spent elsewhere.

It's not likely that the diet switch will be enough. Your best bet is to get Bibo on insulin right away, so his pancreas can rest. With low carb food and appropriate insulin injections, the odds that Bibo's pancreas could recover are very good. He might be able to be diet controlled in a matter of days or weeks. It's very important for you to take advantage of this early time to get his blood glucose (BG) down before his pancreas gets damaged more.

One thing I want to say right off is that you want to make the overall testing experience positive for Bibo. He won't enjoy being restrained, he won't enjoy the quick pinch of the ear poke --- but he will enjoy the praise and petting and rubbing before hand, and the ample treats that accompany the process. Of course you need to know what it is that is most motivating/rewarding for your cat, and give that. Cats are no one's fool, and they figure out real quick that even if testing means a moment of annoyance, it also means lots of good stuff. If you have several cats, you might find out that you soon have a bunch of 'supervisors' while you test.

Did you find the Hometesting info? If not, check out the Health links or go right to viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287 . I believe there is some info on making a cat "burrito", which is basically wrapping the cat in a towel.

You don't need to test the BG constantly, but if you can do it (don't forget the rewards!) while you are getting Bibo onto the insulin, it would absolutely be safest. A few cats are very sensitive to insulin and testing would reveal this. Testing before each shot is really a minimum (it's saved my cat's life!). Testing at least once in between shots to find out how low the cat is going is also really important. Of course people work and can't test in between every time, but when you can, it's very helpful and again safer for your cat. Don't forget the rewards! :lol:

If you haven't gotten some ketostix, please do so. That way you can test the urine to be sure your cat is not developing ketones. Read the FAQ to find out more about that. It's especially important for you to be testing the urine for ketones since Bibo is so frightened at the vet's. (There are also blood testing meters that test ketones, so you might consider this -- but they are more expensive on strips, I think.) Everyone needs to be very wary, but for Bibo especially, you need to catch any ketone problem very early. The BG testing will also be very important in helping you get to an appropriate dose (which could be more or less than the starting dose) as quickly as possible. A cat whose BG is too high will be more susceptible to various problems like bladder infections, dental issues, and these can contribute to the cat developing ketoacidosis. That's a very serious complication that will require hospitalization, so we need to do everything to avoid that for Bibo.

So, look at the FAQ, look at the hometesting section (you can see my Danny's Famous Ears! :-D ), and get with your vet on insulin. I'd recommend lantus or levemir since they are gentle and can last the fully 12 hours between shots. We have great support groups to help you with reviewing your BG test results.

laur
 
How can she get insulin without bringing cat to vet? I could'nt. It's prescription. Could we set her up with some?
 
house call may be one thing, but this cat is so fractious sounding that i wonder if she could bring her testing results into the vets office along with a keostix test and pay for an office visit just to get the insulin.
 
That might work, Lori. Also, to try and tempt Bibo, boiled chicken in water (no oil) might also entice him to come out from hiding and perhaps sit and wait for a treat while they test him. Blackie will now get up onto the table, lay down, and wait for the test even though she doesn't like it. She knows after the test she'll get chicken. It works for her, may work for Bibo.
 
He wanted to put him on insulin, but since he knows Bibo's traumatic stress situation, and the fact that he didn't see him nor tested his blood on different times in a day, he decided to try the med. The vet only got a sample of Bibo's urine, that's all.
 
is this med he gave you glipizide by any chance?
well, that is not so good for the pancreas....and shots are actually easier to give than testing and somehow you are actually able to accomplish that. try to get some lantus or levemir or pzi pro-zinc....this is actually the way to give the pancreas a rest and hope for regulation and possibly remission.
 
The vet is not giving him the insuline without having Bibo over at his practice for a day to monitor his blood level. Don't you think, with Bibo's stress, his BG is gonna skyrocket? and the vet is gonna put him on high level of insuline. could i just give him the shots without measuring every day? this is med is only for a trial of 4 weeks. What do you think?
 
From your description monitoring BG's at vet will not result in representative BG's. Except for my first cat, Grey Ghost, I started insulin myself with no vet BG's being taken, For Grey Ghost, I only left him at the vet since I had a trip to go on. The two-day vet curve resulted in a dose 14 units BID!!!
 
nope, the vet will charge you for a curve and you will have better luck doing that yourself.
the #'s will be crazy if your cat is what you say about him.
we have to know exactly what your giving him now.
and also how to get some insulin for you.
could you give us a list of all the test #'s you've gotten.
 
oh, and no you don't want to give shot without measuring before each shot. it'll get easier and easier. you have to know what your shooting at, for instance, is kitty running 84 bgs HOLD OFF SHOOTING, is kitty running 400 bgs, give that shot and eventually consider raising dose if we don't see lower #'s after a while. see testing (measuring) is the way to save you cats life, and to help him improve, and who knows, maybe go into remission and become diet controlled.
 
Good Morning everyone,
What I'm giving Bibo is Glipizide 5mg, half a tablet twicw a day, to try for 2 weeks and take his urine sample to the vet, also he wanted me to check his weight everyday and see if there is any change. Bibo is not drinking a lot of water since getting on ff food. I don't know how many cans of ff to give him a day, because, he always had lots of dry food before and some wet, before finding out about his diabetes. He's 14.6 pounds male. And if anyone can tell me, the amount of water that cats consume without the onset of diabetes, so I can compare Bibo's drinking habits. He seems to drink and urinate at night mostly. Thank you again for reading my post and giving me advices. Have a good day!!
 
Glipizide does not work very well for cats -- and it can damage the pancreas instead of healing it.

Insulin is better.

My 14lb male ate between 4-6 cans of Fancy Feast per day when he was unregulated (they need more to eat in the beginning of treatment)
 
that's what i said earlier about glipizide. forces the pancreas to work harder instead of giving it a break with the insulin and letting it heal.
 
Hello again!
This is regarding my cat Bibo who was recently diagnosed with diabetes and like I had mentioned how stressed out he gets when I take him to the vet, I am taking him tomorrow because I want him to be on insulin and not Glipizide. I talked to the vet not to keep him there so he can check the curve and finally he agreed, he said he will start him with a 2 unit but would want to see him definitely. I wish he had prescribed the insulin without us going, and I was willing to pay a full visit...Anyhow, could you guys advise me the best type of insulin for a male cat 14.5pounds, 12 yrs old, hasn't lost any weight, no obvious clinical signs ecxept urinating 5 to 6 times a day, and his BG has been between 320 and 370 for the last 2 weeks, even on Glipizide, which I will stop giving him as of tonight. I know there are 2 types of insulin, long lasting and a short one, and I wanna know before the vet tells me what to do. I want to be in charge of this more than the vet. I would really appreciate your responses. Thanks a million..
BTW, he's been on FF wet food since I read your site which has been 2 weeks and 3 days and I notice he wakes me up twice at night crying for food, because he always had dry food available for him before.
 
The best longer acting insulins out there are ProZinc, Lantus, and Levemir. Do not let your vet give you Vetsulin or Humalin. The former has been recalled and the later is too harsh acting for kitties.

Good wishes for an uneventful vet visit!!!!
 
Hi There,

Hopefully the vet will prescribe Lantus for your cat. It is a long acting very gentle insulin that you will get at the pharmacy. Ask the vet to prescribe the Solastar cartridges not the vials of Lantus.

And, he is probably still really hungry. So, although it will seem like a lot of food, give him as much as he asks for until his blood sugar comes down and stays down. Then his food requirement will drop way down.

Good luck.

Claudia
 
Ok, all you experts out there, hear me out before you start yelling! ;-) I'm thinking out of the box here....

Humulin N is available over the counter, without a prescription. YES, I know that this is not the best insulin for cats, but if taking the cat into the vet is going to be that traumatic, what about picking up some Humulin and getting a week or 2 of data to show the vet? He won't prescribe without the curve....she could do all of that at home, and get some sort of treatment going without the extra stress of staying at the vet's office. THEN she could take those numbers to the vet and get the script for Lantus or one of the other longer acting insulins. Humulin is relatively inexpensive, so the loss of $$ would be minor, but it would allow her to get the data she needs and get the kitty started on something right away, all while staying at home. Before starting on Lantus, I was using Humulin on a sliding scale, somewhat successfully.

Ok, expert players....let me have it! If it's a super crazy idea, I'm not going to be offended that you say so...sometimes we need to be creative though, huh?

Best of luck to you!!

s
 
Sherry,
Thank you so much for your concern, indeed he is a frightened cat, he won't step out of the front door even if I keep it open all night long...But I want the vet to see him, to check his vital signs and perhaps get a blood test out of him to check his kidneys and liver. Hopethat he doesn't hyperventilate just like he did before. And also, he keeps running away when I wanna hold him to check his BG, it's still such a struggle to hold him and I'm always afraid that with that stress, even at home, I'm getting a false reading. Hope he'll get used to that. we'll see!!! Thank you all for all your responses, and I will definitely ask for a Pro Zinc prescription, hope I can find it in local pharmacies.
 
Taline said:
Hi again,
Are the Lantus or the Pro zinc avalable at the regular pharmacies? Is Pro zinc the same as PZI?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is, well not exactly the same but it replaced the PZI that Idexx used to make. You can read the Stickies in the PZI forum here for more info and ask questions there as well:

viewforum.php?f=24

And Lantus is available at regular pharmacies. I imagine your vet already uses it. It is a little gentler insulin.

I don't know Sherry, that insulin is just too unpredictable and then to eventually have to switch over and get used to another one. See what others think. Something to consider.

I was wondering though what the chances are for getting a mobile vet to come to the house? Someone else mentioned this and I would think in Glendale, CA there would be a lot of them. Any chance of that?
 
I have a scaredy cat as well, thankfully a civie, Onyx. Whenever I have to treat him for anything I wrap him in a big beach towel like a large burrito, it seems to help him feel more secure, and also lessens my blood loss. That might help with Bilbo as well. Also when we go to the vet I cover his carrier with a towel, then let him out of the carrier into the towel so he can hid there and only expose what they need to work on. Hope you get the answers you are looking for and Bilbo doesn't stress too much at the vet's if he really has to go in.

Mel & Muse (GA)
 
can you call the vet and insist on starting insulin without making bibo stay there for the day? if you already know how to home test you're doing what they'll be doing anyway.
you already have readings to tell the vet, to show that you're doing the tests, and he's already been diagnosed as diabetic.
it pays to be very firm. you are the client, he's already said the cat is diabetic and needs to be on meds for it. there's no law stating that the first day on insulin has to be at the vet.

VERY glad you decided not to stick with the glipizide. it can damage their chances for remission. honestly, it's best left for diabetic cats that are absolutely impossible to handle otherwise.
 
Ask the vet if the curve will be free... I bet not! How dare a vet refuse a needed rx for meds because your cat is not brought in and left for a curve. That's ridiculous. I am sure there are other vets near you; ask your vet for a referral to another vet who does not withhold meds from animals.

YOU are the customer. You tell the vet flat out, your cat will suffer horribly by having to stay at the vet office for a day to have a curve done which will result in a useless bunch of numbers that are all high because of stress and fear.

You are already capable of home testing and getting numbers in your home are going to be more real. Treats are very good to feel better after testing. Eventually, bibo will connect the tests to food and to insulin and both of those make for a happy bibo!

I am in Canada so we don't need any rx for insulins; I just go to the pharmacy and tell them what I want, and I can have it, if stocked. I have used Lantus and it's good, but I use Levemir now for my two cats as it is better for higher doses.

a starting dose of 2units is too high. And if you are switching to all wet food, you will see lower BG numbers and you won't need such a dose. Most start around 1unit twice a day or even a smaller dose.

It might be an idea to do a bit of testing and giving treats, just to get bibo used to the routine, and then introduce the insulin. Maybe start the insulin next week and by then you will have a system in place, and know all of bibo's hiding spots LOL.

For testing, please don't worry about having to do dozens of tests; there are just a few that are very important.
You want to test just before you give a shot. If bibo tests low, then giving his shot could be dangerous. For that reason, you want to test before the am shot and the pm shot.
Another important test is just before you go to bed. It's good to know where bibo is at bedtime because some kitties go low at nite.
Testing at the mid point is also nice to have because you want to know how well the insulin is working.
So that makes maybe 4 tests a day are pretty important.

Always remember who is the customer and who is the service provider.
YOU are the one with the kitty and the money; the vet is to service your kitty's needs and you say what goes and what doesn't go.
 
This may have already been answered.
My cat gets his two shots a day when he is busy chowing down. He has never noticed it. I prepare the syringe, making a big deal about him getting his food - by the time I carry the dish over to his eating mat, (with syringe in the other hand) he is too excited about eating and never notices the shot. He gets the shot at 7:30 am and pm and I have spaced his food so that he is verrry eager to eat at those hours. He gets three other small feedings a day.

Mine is a bed--hider too. It was 6 years before his catsitter even laid eyes on him.
HTH
 
Just a quick note here: ProZinc is a veterinary insulin, it is probably not going to be readily available at a human pharmacy. There is a list of places to order from at the following link, and most likely your vet will have ProZinc available for you to purchase from their office if they are prescribing it. The prices in that post most likely not accurate, as the prices have recently gone up from what I have heard here. You might want to call around to other nearby vets and see what they are charging before you go to your vet...then you will know whether you want to ask for a script or just buy from them.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1979#p56456
 
Good Morning,
So do you guys think starting Bibo on 2 units for a bg of 340 is too high? And Lantus vs Prozinc? We're going to the vet in 2 hours and that's what he wants to do. He's been already on wet ff food for the last two and a half weeks. And I wanted to know what you recommend for a treat that is not carbohydrate so I can give it to him after each testing. I cannot thank you enough for all your responses. You guys are the ones who gave me the courage to overcome the fear of taking this step, considering my Bibo's very difficult personality. Thang you again!!
 
Can't answer the insulin questions but boiled chicken (no oil) works well, and there are also many freeze dried meat treats out there that also work well. When I had Muse, I used a product that was freeze dried duck, that to this day all my kitties just love. It is actually marketed for dogs, but my kitties will snatch it from the 80 lb drooler, so now they get their little pieces of it as well.

Mel & Muse (GA)
 
It would be best if the vet would start with 1 unit twice a day, regardless of the insulin type. .5 units twice a day is also very safe. Starting at 2 units could be starting over his ideal dose. (Cats are not dosed by weight like dogs are.)

I really wish you could get your vet to let you do the curve at home. The problem is, particularly with your cat who is very stressed at the vet, the numbers the vet gets will probably be higher than numbers you get at home. Stress raises bg levels and there seems to be no issue that Bibo will be stressed. If the vet doses on stress numbers, the dosage may be too high and result in an overdose.

An idea for getting the bg levels at home. Some people here with very difficult cats to test use a method like the mommy cat uses with the kitties: http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_ ... _peg_trick
 
The vet curve is not going to tell you much because the body can take a bit of time to get used to the insulin.

If you had unlimited funds and your cat loved being at the vet, then a vet curve would be fine. Useless likely but fine.

But if you don't have unlimited funds and your cat is terrified, I see no point in subjecting yourselves to this. Ask your vet what exactly he expects to learn from it?! And politely and respectfully state your point, that you do not wish your cat to go through this and that you will not do it. You can readily admit that you don't know as much about diabetes as he does but that you are concerned, that you are learning and you want to be actively involved in the decision making process.

1 unit twice a day for a starting dose, especially for a cat on a diet low in carbohydrates, is a very reasonable and safe dose.

Let us know how things go!
 
Just to update you this before I go to the vet,I did ask him yesterday to not keep Bibo at their clinic for the whole day and he agreed me doing the curve at home and monitor Bibo at home. So soon I'll be asking for more advises from you guys until I get this new lifestyle going. I'll keep you posted very soon and thanks for caring so much!!
 
Terrific!!!

The curve will be more accurate done by you in your home -- remember to be cool, calm and collected -- if you are nervous and upset, your kitty will pick up on that and also get upset.
 
Hello Everyone,
We just came back from the vet, and Bibo did a bit better than previous visits, and the vet checked his bg which was 294 lower than the numbers I get at home (which I was happily surprised). He gave me a PZI 40U and prozinc syringes 40 and also wanted to give him 2 units, I told him to start with 1 unit, and he went along, he asked me to check his bg in 2 weeks, to give time for the insulin to work, but I will check regardless, he also said that with this dosage, he will not get hypo, and not to worry about that. I am so pleased that my baby is gonna have relief and thank you guys for encouraging me to do this. Your good and positive vibes seemed to work, Bibo was calmer!
 
Fantastic! And way to go Bilbo! Now mommy can help you feel better. And hopefully you will never have to see that mean ol' vet again. Just be good to your bean when she gives you your shots and pokes your ear.

Mel & Muse (GA)
 
The vet wants me to feed Bibo only twice a day, but Bibo is used to eat 4 or 5 times a day (wet food ff 4 cans a day), can I feed him at least 3 times, morning, noon and evening?
 
What good news! Actually diabetic cats tend to do well with several smaller meals a day. It may be best not to feed before taking a bg level since food does tend to raise the levels. Some of us use automatic feeders and put out several small meals.

Good for you for holding out for one unit. Your vet may learn some things during the process too and you will have helped future diabetic cat owners. BTW, your vet is wrong. Cats certainly can hypo on one unit - particularly if the diet has recently changed to wet lo carb and the numbers are not high to begin with. So please plan to check Bibo's bg levels before each shot and try to get in some times during the cycle too. The most important one to start with is 5-6 hours after the shot. That should give you his nadir, or the point at which he is the lowest in the cycle. That number really tells you how the insulin is working.

Congrats! What a great advocate you have been for your kitty!
 
Please help me with the dose of first insulin shot!!

Hello my Friends,
I just measured Bibo's bg after 6 hours of his first 1 unit PZI shot which was given by the vet today, and I got a reading of 130 which I am sooo happy to see. I will be checking again in 6 hours before I give him his evening shot. If his bg is in the 150 or 175, should I give him insulin? For a beginner, I'm so afraid to give him a shot, that will lower his bg too low, especially at night. It would be so helpful if you let me know what to do next. Thanks a million!!
 
You are doing so good . Everything will be so much better for your kitty..If you want to catch someones eye Put you question like Advice,Or Dose in your subject line ok and someone will respond pretty quick I can`t help with advice but I am a good listener ok You are going to do so well now. Way to go with your vet and sticking to starting with 1 unit you are on your way to having a healthy kitty.....Kath

Oh I forgot to edit you subject line just go to your 1st post of the day and hit edit ok
 
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