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Var-ee and Rory

Var-ee and Rory

Member Since 2013
Hi I just found out about your site and am trying to learn how to switch my cat from caninsulin to Lantus. I live in Victoria BC Canada and the current Vet I have is trying to keep my cat on Caninsulin. it ISN'T working out at all and I am not being heard. My cat "Rory" was diagnosed with Diabetes just before Christmas 2012. in the start we got a big scare and ended up in Emergency Animal Hospital twice because he bottomed out. This Caninsulin insulin isn't lasting long enough and gives him diarrhea. At first my Vet told me not to test his blood, just to give him 2 units every 12 hours. I refused and said I was going to monitor his blood as humans do. She was not happy about it and referred it to MICRO TESTING, and said it was bad for him!!! I really need to find a new Vet. I have taken him off all grains as well as corn to be on the safe side since it is mostly GMO anyway. I am feeding him BFF wet food as well as Orijen dry, although he isn't happy about the dry it is excellent food.

The problem I am facing is, when I check his blood for the second time in the morning after he eats, I am getting extremely high and low readings. But higher when he has actually had insulin. if I miss a dose he goes lower 14-17 (if he has been eating his cat grass it is even better!!).. if I give him insulin he ranges 18-32.. I give him 1 unit when he is between 15-19 and 2 units 20 and above... well it is NOT working out. he is just getting higher and his thirst gets really bad after he has had Caninsulin!!! he drinks more reverse osmosis water than I do each day... I have checked his blood between 3-6 hours after his morning dose and it only is good for a couple hours.. and that's it!!... I have asked and asked my current Vet to help switch to a slow release insulin and I keep getting ignored. she just keeps telling me how hard he is to manage because of his extreme highs and lows, she also told me cats don't do well with Diabetes and that we really hope to get 15 years out of our pets :( he is 11, indoor and was extremely healthy up until Christmas I bought the best monitor I could find at London Drugs.. its a One Touch Verio

Please someone help guide me on how to switch my baby boy. I am not sure how much to dose him.. :YMSIGH:
 
Hello and welcome to FDMB. This is a great place for information. Your story sounds a lot like mine. My cat Neko was on Caninsulin, even though I kept telling them I thought there were better insulins for cats. It seems very common in Canada to prescribe Caninsulin first. It wasn't lasting for us either. I got switched when I saw a locum vet who taught me how to test and wrote me a prescription for Lantus and pointed me here. I have since found that you do NOT need a prescription for Lantus. If you want it, you can go to your local pharmacy and ask for it. Ask for the 5 pack of 3ml cartridges, that's the best value. You will also need to buy the u100 syringes. I get the BD Ultra-Fine II, 3/10 mL, 8mm needles, 31 gauge. It's a purple and yellow box.

Before you switch, you should read about Lantus. There is a lot of information in the starred Sticky topics at the top of the Lantus forum. There is a formula for deciding what the initial dose is, and it's based on the ideal weight of your cat. What should he weigh (in kilograms)? Typically we start cats between .5 to 1 unit. The syringes I recommended have 1/2 unit markings.

It's good that you are testing your cat as that's the best way to keep Rory safe. With Lantus, you'll need to test at least 4 times a day, once for each preshot and once in the middle of the cycle. Lantus is dosed based on the nadir number. Everyone here records their test data in a spreadsheet format that we all use. It helps the experienced members give advice. Here's a link to how to do it. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207 For your reference, most of the experienced members are from the US, so they use ml/dl instead of mmol/L. You basically multiply your numbers by 18. There is a World version of the spreadsheet that calculates that for you. Once you've got a spreadsheet with your readings so far, and let us know the cats ideal weight, the experienced members will be able to recommend what to start with.

Next topic food. Have you looked at the http://www.catinfo.org site? It is a wealth of information on feeding your cat. The author has even put together a list we all use for diabetic friendly foods http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf Any foods under 10% are appropriate. And dry foods are not on that list. Rory is correct in not liking it! All dry foods are too high in carbs. Many people here feed Fancy Feast pates or Wellness, my kitty is on raw food. If you remove the dry food, do be careful as it can have an immediate impact on numbers. There have some cats who have had greatly reduced insulin requirements as a result.

And lastly, vets. I know a member in Victoria. I'll contact her and see if she can recommend someone. A lot of people come to FDMB for advice on topics related to diabetes and go to their vet for everything else. People here live diabetes 24x7. Some vets don't see it that often and have so many species and types of things to know about it that they can't become experts in diabetes.

Oops, one more thing. Your cat is Rory, what's your name? Pleased to "meet" you. :-D
 
Hi and thanks for the info, I will be living Feline Diabetes 24/7 also :) I changed my User name to include both Rory and myself Var-ee ... I will have to read up on this switch and also would like to find a Vet who can guide me into testing Rory's Ketones. I have been concerned about them since I have noticed such a rapid change.. he was addicted to Dry cat food before all this and the reason he doesn't like the new dry food is because it has 0 carbs and not fancy feast.. it is of very high quality dry as far as Wet food BFF is good too but he just wont eat any other wet food. I have tried them. he just eats the Tuna and Chicken one. Orijen is the highest quality of dry cat food I have been able to find, so far every Vet I have spoken with including the ones in Emergency have told me there is definitely nothing wrong with it and its the best.. even over the brands they sell. Well he wont eat it much anyway.. its there mostly for emergency reasons in case he really need some food, like if his BS goes out of wack and he gets desperate. YES, I really need an experienced VET locally that knows about Diabetic cats! Rory will eat Orijen as long as I don't put out other dry stuff.. I will only use Grain free dry... I tried a couple other ones recently he liked which turned him off the Orijen so Im trying to get him back on it. his BS was much lower when he was eating the Orijen, but it is pretty expensive stuff.. so I hope he takes to it again because I got him the monster size bag.. last time I went through it pretty fast.. problem is I introduced the others.. I read they had blueberries and potatoes so I stopped them. Potatoes are suger in my eyes. http://www.bestfriendsfoods.com/cans.shtml http://www.orijen.ca/cat-food/
 
Hi, welcome!

I'm only a newbie myself here, but I noticed that you said you are testing AFTER he eats... You need to be testing before he eats, or at least two hours after he eats if my understanding of it is correct. I'm sure one of the veterans will chime in to clarify if needed.
 
Hi Var-ee. For testing ketones, get some Ketostix at the pharmacy. You just dip them in the urine stream, wait 15 seconds and match against the guide on the container. If the Rory won't get you get close when he's peeing, some people use a long handled ladle or tongs. Another method is to put aquarium gravel in the litter box - it won't absorb the wet. Or put plastic wrap on top. Or buy a system like TidyCat Breeze that lets urine run through.

Orijen is not zero carb food. The ingredients list includes peas, yams, pumpkin, squash and carrots, all sources of carbs. If you can do without dry at all, it will help getting Rory regulated. The wet food BFF flavours are all very good foods for a diabetic. Dry food is also not a good choice if you need to raise his blood sugar quickly. It takes a while to be processed by the digestive system. It's better to have some high carb wet foods around for such a purpose. Any of the ones with gravy in them will do and will get into his blood stream in 20 minutes. I have a stack of Fancy Feast gravy lover foods around, just for that purpose. An alternative is to add a couple of drops of corn syrup to his regular wet food.
 
Var-ee, I sent a PM to Kimmee, older member posts under Sweetgrass and Furries. She is the only one I knew of that lives in Victoria. Hopefully she will respond soon and help you find another vet.
 
Welcome, the BG pattern suggests that the dosage is too high.
As the others have said I would change to feeding a low-card canned and start lantus at no more than one unit twice daily.
Cats can live a long time on insulin. My Patches was already on insulin when I adopted her over eight years ago, She is 15 now.
Similar for my Mitten who I said goodbye about two years ago because of a heart problem.
 
Hi there! I haven't been around for a bit but Rupert and I learnt soooooooo much from this board and it was a constant lifeline in the early days of our sugar dance. Just a quick update, Rupert is doing AMAZINGLY well, we switched from Lantus to Levemir at the end of January and immediately saw dramatic and encouraging results. I haven't updated his spreadsheet for a bit, but in the past couple of weeks he's had two dose reductions and has been keeping me up all hours of the night with some superb numbers. He is feeling tons better than this time last year... looks 5 years younger, is bossy, sassy, chasing his red dot everywhere and beating up his sister if she get's out of line. Definitely a much much happer cat.

Now. on to your situation. Firstly....I went thru three vets when we started this. I must say that actually the first vet did at least set us on the right path, (i.e. started us on Lantus and even recommended this board) but she was an intern at the Victoria Cat clinic (the one by elk lake)... and when the resident vet returned, even though she is super nice, and seemed to know a bit about lantus, her overall knowledge of diabetes was lacking.. as it seems it is with all the vets. My situation became similar to yours earlier this year in that I wanted to switch insulins (from Lantus to Levemir).

I tried Beacon Cat Hospital in Sidney - don't bother. Completely clueless. I now use Sue McTaggart at the Deep Cove Pet hospital on Mctavish. She is actually a certified (I believe the only one on the island?) dental vet and so handles all of ruperts dental work. She is at least open minded and interested in the process although again not really understanding of how we do things. I wanted to switch from Lantus to Levemir and that was why I tried the Beacon Cat Hospital because I was hoping for them to help me out... she had some insane ideas (eg: "oh, well I don't think .2 or .5 of a difference in dose really makes that much difference ! and 'caninsulin is still the best')..... and refused to do the switch. And THEN , doh (slaps forehead)..... I remembered that here in Canada.. YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESCRIPTION FOR INSULIN. So.. I just went to shoppers drug mart where I was getting the Lantus, and asked for Lev. bingo. no muss, no fuss. Did the switch myself, used the information I got from this board, and there you have it. So, I'm pretty sure you should be able to just make the switch to Lantus by yourself. If you do, you may run the risk of pissing off your current vet, but from the sounds of it that won't be a great loss, and then you can find a new one (Deep Cove vet place is pricey BUT I trust them inherently with the whole dental stuff which really is something very important with diabetic cat).. and just say that you cat is on Lantus (or Lev), and go from there.

if you need help at all give email me at psumsion@shaw.ca, or find me on facebook: Pip Sumsion We live out in Deep Cove , just off West Saanich road.

you can do this, sounds like you are already on the right track, and honestly, you won't believe the difference when you switch. Just be prepared for some late nights and fun monitoring times! Take care and good luck.
 
Hi

I am in Victoria, and had the same kind of rollercoaster with my cat's blood sugar it sounds like you are having.
I would be happy to chat with you about what we went through. Abby, my cat ended up not needing any insulin in the end. I have helped many people over the years, sort out caninsulin in the vetsulin/N forum board here, until a switch could be made.

My vet went along with me, but we did not need to move to lantus. I do not know a vet in the area that would support it. This town is stuck in Caninsulin land. I do have a wonderful vet that I believe would support you in being proactive. Her name is Alyson Belyea at Kindred Spirits
Address: 1248 Fort St, Victoria, BC V8V 3L2
Phone:(250) 380-9611

First may I encourage to drop the dose back, to perhaps 1 unit, which is a much better starting dose,test for ketones daily, and keep testing and try to spot check as follows
-pretest 20 minutes before shot
+1 ( 1 hour after shot )
+2
+5
+7
+10

I add these because Caninsulin can often send a fast steep drop in that first 90 minute that sets up rebound in the cat's bodies and brings a high number by +4. The +10, however may show you a truer number that a rebound one in that first 5 hours.
You can use food to soften this drop, by offering a snack of a low carb wet food 'feeding the curve', around 1-2 hours into the cycle.
Here is the caninsulin info I wrote with some tips to keep your baby safe for the moment while you try and switch.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302

I know how much it sucks watching your baby get worse when you give the insulin. We saw that as well.
Please feel free to pm me for support. Any actual advice for dosing will be posted publicaly so it may be peer reviewed on the board, but I am happy to chat further from our experience. None of our here are 'experts' , but we all share from our experience and many have been here for years, offering what they can.
Kimmee
 
Thanks for all the advise, now I have to think about which insulin would be a better choice, Lantus (or Lev).. I will phone one of the Vets recommended tomorrow as soon as they open!! I am not going to say I am on either of them though, I will tell it like it is and request guidance in switching rather. I feel safer with that since I am kind of nervous about the dosing part.
.. and to Wendy&Niko, I wont give Rory anything that contains corn products period, or anything derived from Corn. most of it is GMO. Everything has to be organic.
also he doesn't do well with Fancy Feast. I wont give it to him, that was what he was on when this whole nightmare started.. The food I give him is premium quality and like I said originally, the best times he has is when he has a missed dose of insulin.. so far the only Wet food he WILL eat is BFF I have tried many... Orijen is the only Dry food I have found that includes organ meat, bone and cartilage, that is premium ingredients, yes I read there are some carbs in there..when he eats it, it doesn't make his numbers higher.. and given the amount he has is very little, he has them more like treats now. I really don't feel there is a dry food out there that is comparable in quality. If he doesn't have dry crunchies down he wont eat at all sometimes... In an emergancy he will eat low sodium Tuna when I eat it occasionally... if I notice him not eating at all I know I can get that in him... which doesnt effect his BG at all so far, but it has really no nutritional value that is needed.
 
Good luck with the phone calls tomorrow. You'll probably find they are more familiar with Lantus as Levimer is newer for cats. One other thing, Lantus is sometimes called Glargine here, so some vets know it by that name. Call it Lantus glargine when you are talking to them and then there won't be any confusion.

Both my cats are on organic, non-medicated raw food, so I understand your thoughts on that. Corn is one of the worst for carbs. For raising blood sugar, other alternatives to corn syrup (called karo here) are honey or maple syrup. The tinned foods with gravy have wheat in them, that's what makes them high carbs.
 
thanks I edited my note so its a bit longer lol... I would love to try the RAW food diet but he didnt like the stuff Bosley's has in their freezer.. I cant recall which one I tried
 
just to add, Rupert is on Friskies pate, occasionally EVo (but its almost too low carb for him). It's cheap at Walmart, easy to get, and they seem to like it. Carb value is around 5-7%. the dry food is totally and utterly brutal, even the Orijen, or the Grain Free Go stuff.. sends his numbers thru the roof. No one in our house (five cats, only one diabetic) gets dry now, all of them on the Friskies and all of them looking SO much healthier.

the vets will try to sell you their special diabetic cat food. Don't go there, a) it's bloody expensive and b) the carb values are way too high. If you are looking to get a vet to corroborate your decision to switch to Lantus, then go with the Capital Cat clinic - on the highway by Elk Lake. nice people and they at least will recommend Lantus over anything else. They took very good care of Rupert when he was first diagnosed and were nice to deal with, plus they are open on Saturdays and later in the day during the week which makes it easier to get to see them if you work full time. Only reason we switched from them was that the vet wouldn't agree with me that Rupert needed dental work, and also said she wouldn't do it until his BG levels were regulated. sigh. catch 22, his levels were really high because he was in a lot of pain with his teeth (she barely looked at them and said they were fine)... so he wasn't going to regulate ever without the dental. Sue McTaggart was fabulous in dealing with Rupert's diabetes AND doing the dental. She's very expensive but well worth it.
 
I will call Sue Rupert then because I know Rory's teeth have had problems for a long time now. Im sticking with BFF wet food so them trying to change that, they are way out of luck.. I wont even attempt the conversation.. its great food
 
what is BFF wet food?

and be prepared. Sue will do a full work up, xrays etc.etc. and it's really expensive. Rupert has had two extractions done and they really really made him feel a lot better. She really is the best when it comes to teeth, but the bill usually runs around $1000 for each time he's been in for dental!!
 
ah, I see it now. Seen that stuff at Bosleys. looks pretty good. Expensive though, I like the friskies. with Five cats to feed (and four horses) I have to try and make it work! of course we live on the cheapest stuff we can find, but the animals get the best we can give. typical!
 
One problem with BFF is that it all contains fish. Another brand that is similar in quality (I actually think it's better quality than BFF) is the Tiki Cat and they have two varieties that are chicken only (fish oil is usually okay on a daily basis because it contains minimal to no fish protein). You might want to see if you can find that somewhere and if your cat will like it, but if he doesn't, even an all-fish low carb, wet diet is better than dry or not eating! ;-)

For the "crunch" factor, you can also try sprinkling freeze-dried meat treats on his food to entice him to eat. Another trick is sprinkling parmesan on top. Here are a few more tips for getting cats to eat.
 
the new vet cut out dry and also got me to stop insulin completely.. she is going to extract one of his teeth.. she says he has a hole in one and its causing him pain so he probably under stress. I don't think there are any good Vets these days.. she says no insulin unless he reaches 20!!! he was 17 tonight.. she says he has a different disorder that makes insulin ineffective and just raises his BG
 
You certainly need a new vet, and I hope you find one soon! We can only tell you how it worked out with our kitties, and a vet knows about "all" kitties, so we aren't a substitute for a good vet, just an auxiliary source of info that might help!

Lantus is certainly better than Caninsulin, and you are on the right track. Ragnar's vet used to give Prozinc (the newer version) to all her patients, but with Ragnar's results and FDMB (which she told me about in the first place), she's switched to Lantus and even sells it at the clinic now.

FDMB might help you get started - though it would be best to find a good vet before you switch insulins if you can do so quickly!

Blessings!

Shirley and Mr. Wonderful
 
Pip & Rupert said:
ah, I see it now. Seen that stuff at Bosleys. looks pretty good. Expensive though, I like the friskies. with Five cats to feed (and four horses) I have to try and make it work! of course we live on the cheapest stuff we can find, but the animals get the best we can give. typical!
Click to expand...
Ragnar does just great on Friskies! I wouldn't feel I was doing the best for him if I gave him anything else, and I've spent thousands on his meds and vet bills. (And the cheapest of everything for myself - yep!! ;-) )

Have a look at this discussion, which includes "premium" foods...it applies to all cats, not just those with kidney disease.

http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm

Blessings!

Shirley and Lover
 
Var-ee and Rory said:
OK I just went to Shoppers and purchased Lantus.. so now I need to learn dosing info..
Click to expand...
. Hi and welcome to our family!!! can you post on the "lantus tight regulation" board? put this in your subject line and an experienced advisor will help you: "newbie Var-ee needs help with initial lantus dosing" and then copy and paste your original post (first post above) into your lantus post, and add that you have the lantus ? there are a lot of people using lantus there... also be sure to click on the "?" in the subject line, and include whatever is your cat's ideal weight (initial dosing is usually based on ideal weight). See you there :mrgreen:
 
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