IAA Info Posts

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IAA Explanation

jojo and bunny said:
hey there kiddo. i heard on grapevine you got IAA results , someone sent me number and yes that indeed is positive. well it is not the worst news in world. IAA does seem to resolve one day ~like no time soon, think a year or so in future? only a guess though there on my part. we do NOT have a lot of data on IAA in felines, it simply does not exist in vet lit to give to you. however we have had 2 IAA positive cats in LL. sandy's BK and sharyn's fiona. have not seen sharyn around in ages, however we had sandy's BK's OTJ party a few months ago...and he was on some super high doses of insulin at one point. suggest you go find BK's SS and STUDY IT. of course your cat is not going to do exact same thing, but sandy had the biggest BOS fll_moon fll_moon in LL and that is why BK is OTJ now.

IAA IS NOT ACRO. they are 2 totally unrelated in any way shape or form physiologically. and they are worked differently. with acro we aim for that all blue SS while with IAA we aim for the all green SS. even at the big doses. btw, i was suspecting your cat was not going to be an acro, just didn't look like an acro SS, and then suspected he was gonna be an IAA cat after i saw his big R response to tiny dose (people sent his SS to my sick bed, they have been worried about him), it made sense. have you been able to read up what little there is on IAA? don't even bother trying to find vet lit on it, have to go with human lit and extrapolate.

but basically all you need to know is that your cat has this special reaction that "kills insulin" so even though you might be shooting 20 units of insulin into him one day, 20 units of insulin are not going to effect his BG, he has these million 'little guns' inside his body 'shooting' the insulin molecules as they appear 'killing them' and not much insulin is gonna get past his 'ultra defenses'. there is a war going on inside him. who knew? ya certainly wouldn't to look at him. but you get suspicious about The Great Buddy's Body Insulin Wars of 2010 when you look at SS. remember he has all those million little guns you have only your syringes in this battle. but you can and will win as long as you are brave as a soldier. be brave jan. get those BOS, you are gonna need them (remember as long as you have a well stocked hypo tool box in house, nice little stash of HC canned, it is real easy to have massive BOS) i cannot predict how exactly this is going to go with your cat, ECID, but i have to assume from what i've read and from sandy/BK what works.

we'll talk more....i'm fading for night quick here.....
~jojo

jojo and bunny said:
quick answer to the question on why shoot isulin at all if he is just gonna kill it all...because you will shoot a dose large enough to that he runs out of guns and some insulin gets to slip by and touch the BG's. since you read BK's SS you know that DKA can happen to IAA cats and fiona was often battling ketones too.
i would suggest to get yourself one of those precision x-tra meters and te$t $trip$. yeah the test strips are very expensive, but they are worth their weight in gold since ketone show up in blood long before urine and you will have far more advance warning if that ever becomes an issue.

R-Tips for Jan
jojo and bunny said:
jan... imho you should not be giving 0.25 units R when you are not home. why? because what i see on your SS is that it sure looks like the R is able at this time to get past the IAA's. (in other words your cat has not built up antibodies, the little gun that kill the insulin to R yet). you get a lot of response off a tiny amount (especailly when you compare it to your basal insulin's dose, like i said that was what tipped me off that he was prolly gonna be an IAA cat, the response between the 2 insulins doesn't match). what you want with R, what the goal is when you have a high number is to take the edge of it. you do not want a 150-200 point drop, even though that would only take you to yellow today simply because that is too steep a drop too quick for a cat's liver and you are going to set off a bounce. instead take 50-75 points off a high PS with your R use and give the lantus an easier number to work with. have to always keep this thought in mind~ what you do this cycle is gonna have big effect on next cycle. so if one is starting off in red, you only want to end up this cycle in pink or high yellow. then next cycle ease it down more, and then next cycle a bit more and you'll be starting a cycle in blue and can get somewhere, rather than going from red to blue in one cycle and then dealing with the bounce from that kind of drop over the next cycles... see what i'm saying?
no biggie today, just see where you are when you get home and then can deal with whatever number that is with this concept described above in mind. R works better in smaller doses more frequently overall for everyone.

~jojo
 
Reverse Rebound Check (IAA or Acro?)

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 837#p45837
jojo and bunny said:
hey there. ;-)
first i wanted to say something to the HD peeps..i have an idea i have been playing with for situations just exactly like this in my mind when 'to do a rebound check or not to do a rebound check' (said in best Shakespearean voice) is on the line....what about a reverse rebound check using R? credit lorna/GirlCat with the idea that time she shot GC with 7 units of R instead of 7 units of lantus by accident pre-acro dx and ran to ER while GC giggled. R being the powerful insulin it is, having the action it does, once GC's numbers did not move from that, the acro test results we were waiting for were just a formality, that incident gave all the answers right there.
no i'm not saying to shoot BB with 9 units of R, what i was thinking was a 2 part process ~in case this is an IAA cat can't shoot any real dose of R first time since you can have the kinda 'mismatched' insulin response like what jan/buddy (an IAA cat) to lantus vs. her R.

the first part would be to wait until after whatever little vetsulin nadir is happening here in a cycle and then give a teeny tiny touch of R, say 0.25 units. (and must have person get U-100 syringes, the usual 3/10cc with 1/2 unit markings). do an R curve from there (should be over before next PS easy). if nothing then next day give at the same point in cycle 1 unit of R and do another R curve. (of course making sure have well stocked hypo toolbox in house just in case). if still no response, then i think you have gotten pretty good hints as to the answers to a lot of questions about this cat and the current vetsulin dose. unless a cat has ketones **(joanne see below paragraph to you about this) which in and of themselves cause insulin resistance 1 unit of R should cause good movement of numbers, even through rebound hormones (when i first got settleD, i used R all the time to cut through rebound hormones, it does). hence a 'rebound check' has been done w/o letting ketones enter the picture and at same time clues as to what is really up with this cat have been given.
and if there ends up being a response to the first tiny test dose of R then it is a whole new ballgame and you've opened the door to suspect bad insulin, IAA or way over dose, in other words rebound check was positive, unless IAA cat(rare). (you can get an IAA test done easily in canada, and while waiting for results would get a new insulin (lev) and start over using regular tilly protocol)
this technique could only be used in very special circumstances like that is going on here. it is not something to be suggested in lieu of a real rebound check to a newbie on health when one is indicated there.

if the reverse rebound check is negative (no response to 1 unit R), this would also help decide what does of lev to start barnbuddy at if switching to lev is done, plus i would STRONGLY suggest having R in house anyways when doing the switch, while that first shed is building it is a very dangerous time for a HD cat, R greatly lessens the ketone dangers associated with that and is a safety net until real lev dose needed is worked up to through the start middle-ish dose and move really fast technique.

so what do you guys think? does this idea have merit?
i know i is kinda different than anything proposed before and i really wish i could do this in my own household first before throwing the idea out there but unless someone knocks on my door tomorrow with a BB like cat, it ain't happening. but like i said, i've used R plenty of times to cut through rebound on my own cat in past (and this was back when he was on doses around 5 units lev). i've had this reverse rebound check idea for long time, and when i was asked to look at BB's threads and saw 'let's do a rebound check' and 'cat has trace ketones' in same thread i had to throw this idea out there.

***joanne~ i read above that you believe you have 'between negative and trace' on urine ketone stick. can you take one of those test strips and wet them with water (or even use it on yourself) and then look at it under same light you have been? asking because even a trace on a urine ketone test strips "pops" when it is positive at all. like when you look at it you would have no doubt in mind that it was positive. you are timing the seconds when measuring it's color to chart on bottle right? this is important because if there really is trace ketones then things have to be played differently, and a rebound check of cutting insulin given down cannot be done. (nor does it need to be, too much insulin cannot cause ketones, only too little). and an insulin switch should not be attempted to long lasting insulin until the trace ketones are long gone.

well hope that helps....
~jojo
 
Scientific Speculation

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 837#p45837
Monique & Spooky said:
Good morning (well afternoon here :-D ) I wanted to throw a few things out here concerning IAA's for you and anyone else who's interested. I have no experince with them personally but I have been trying to help you out because I find these cases so interesting (more so than acro because we do know a bit about acro) I have looked at BK's SS and find it facinating. I know a fair bit about antibodies in general because I myself have an autoimmune disease and produce quite a few crazy antibodies against all sorts of things. Basically my own immune system is trying to kill me (If I die from it, is it a suicide :razz: ?) Anyway antibodies are something that everyone has, they are usually a good thing that protects us from diseases (viruses etc.) sometimes things go whacky though and antibodies are produced that begin attacking important things that belong to our body! In the case of IAA the antibodies are directed at injected (analogus) insulin. Now every animal that we inject "foreign" insulin into will produce some antibodies against that foriegn substance (it is not 100% identical to the body's own insulin) usually these antibodies are insignifacant and will only render a small amount of the insulin inactive. In cases like Buddy there is a significant over production of these antibodies (think of it like an allergy, where he is hyper reacting to the foreign substance) so when you inject 1 or 2 units of insulin (which would be a reasonable dose for many cats) He produces 1-2 units of antibodies which makes all that insulin useless. The antibodies attach themselves to the insulin molecules and it can no longer attach itself to the glucose or the receptors on the cells where it is supposed to deliver the glucose. Insulin is a hormone which does nothing on it's own it works like a coupleing between 2 things to bring them together. On one side it has a hook for glucose on the other end a hook for the receptors that are present on cells in the body. It attaches glucose and brings it to the receptors once it is locked in the loading dock it delivers the glucose into the cells where it will be used as energy. The antibodies work like condoms (for lack of a better analogy) they attach themselves to the hooks on the insulin molecule and now there is no place for the glucose to attach, so all that nice insulin you injected is unable to do anything because it is blocked up by antibodies.

Jojo frequently mentions "squishing" the IAA's, I like to think of this more scientifically @-) Everytime you inject insulin those antibodies are set loose to go find it and destroy it, so you keep injecting more insulin, and more insulin and it very little of it has any effect because there are more and more antibodies. It's a viscious cycle the more you inject the more antibodies ohmygod_smile BUT...at some point you have gotton enough insulin in there that the antibodies are all occupied with and there is enough extra (maybe just 1-2 units) that doesn't get scooped up by antibodies and can actually work! So you keep shooting this big dose (could be 10U or 50U who knows) and eventually you have found the threshold of antibody production and you have some usable insulin in there working. Now the BG starts to come down and things become more regulated. Eventually if all goes well the same things will start happening with Buddy as with other cats that are going towards remmission and his pancreas will heal and start producing it's own insulin which is NOT foreign and will not be attacked by antibody. Now he will start going low and you will have to reduce your dose just like others who heading OTJ. As you reduce the amount of injected insulin the amount of antibodies produced will also decline and the amount of his own insulin will increase untill hopefully his pancreas is healed and can take over the job alone.

Interestly there is a medication out there for treating Multiple Sclerosis (MS) which is an autoimmune disease that produces antibodies against the protein covering of the nerves in the brain and spinal cord. These antibodies attach to the nerve covering and "mark" it as foreign so the white blood cells which normally destroy bacteria and viruses see it as a danger and attack it, which then causes inflamation and damage to the nerve leading to the neurological symptoms the person with MS has. This new medicine (Copoxone) is nothing more than a cocktail of proteins that look simular to the protein covering on the nerves. It is injected daily subcutanously and basically serves as a decoy to occupy the antibodies. The antibodies attach to the medicine (decoy) and it is destroyed by the blood cells instead of the nerves. A really simple concept much like the idea that the way to improve allergies is to keep exposing the body to the allergen untill it becomes oversensitzed and stops producing antibodies.

So while your dose is a bit more than what most kittys here are getting the actual amount of working insulin in there is about the same. It may be a big dose but it is the dose Buddy needs and you have slowly and under collection of data worked up to that dose so you know it is the right amount. I guess you could think of it as your insulin is less effective (weaker) than everyone else's so you have to have inject more of it to get the same effect.

With all the screwy antibodies I have (ANA's, U1rNP, c-ANCA's...) I don't want to know what would happen if I injected insulin into myself, probably my head would explode :lol: The treatment for me is to try and kill most of immune system (Chemo) so that it stops attacking my organs, the trick is (the immune system is kinda important) so not to kill me with treatment first :mrgreen:
BTW: I may be looking for a kidney or a peice of liver in the near future anyone......?
 
Handling Low Numbers when you can't test...

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 020#p50894
Carolyn and Spot said:
If he's high: shoot 7u and have a nice day
If he's where he was tonight (low 100s): shoot BCS dose and have a nice day (1/2 dose) I don't see any instances where Sandy shot a full dose at a low preshot and didn't test the next several hours. I may get noodled unto death, but I've got to have a good heart to heart with Jojo and Jill about this before I can confidently say Just Do It.. We know you can get here, which means we know you can get back and we will know better what to do then.
 
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5366#p53699
Carolyn and Spot said:
Personally I don't believe the protocol applies to IAA at all. I also want to caution that all high dose illnesses are not the same. With Acro's, we take them down 1/2u at a time for safety because they can hypo a hell of a lot faster and for a full cycle if we don't. IAAs are different than acro's in that you do need to keep pounding away at the bg's in order to overcome the antibodies. Acro's would be in serious danger if we did that, so we reduce quickly, at higher bg's than a regular diabetic, and in large amounts. I am concerned about those 500s she got last night and suspect the antibodies tried to "revolt" for lack of a better term. When Sandy started reducing, she was at a much higher dose, and coming off a dental and lumpectomy as well I believe.

With lack of evidence any which way, whatever Jan feels best doing is what should be done. It's all data collection at this point, and if she does 1/2u and decides it didn't work, she'll know for next time. If it does work, then we have a winning protocol for Jan's cat.
 
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